Christians for Torture

[MerandaS]

Christians for Torture
Laurence M. Vance
Lew Rockwell.com
Thursday, May 14, 2009

Taken from the Alex Jones Show


The most ardent atheist would be rendered speechless should he hear of Christians for abortion, profanity, adultery, or drunkenness. Of all people in the world, it is certainly Christians – and especially the conservative, evangelical, and fundamentalist kind – that atheists, agnostics, and infidels expect to be opposed to these things.

So what in the world is an atheist to think when he sees the widespread Christian support for torture? Yes, torture. But don’t Christians claim to follow the ethics of Jesus and the apostles in the New Testament? Aren’t Christians commanded to put off anger, wrath, and malice (Colossians 3:8), "be ready to every good work" (Titus 3:1), and "live peaceably with all men" (Romans 12:18)? Yes, Christians.

What is really tragic is that most Christians who of late have weighed in on the subject of torture are not arguing whether or not waterboarding and other "enhanced interrogation techniques" constitute torture – they readily admit that they do – but that torture is justified in the name of fighting terrorism, national security, defending our freedoms, keeping us safe, or protecting our children and grandchildren.

In my recent article "Waterboard an A-rab for Jesus," I mentioned two polls which showed that a great percentage of evangelicals supported the use of torture against suspected terrorists. Now come two additional surveys that are even more shocking. When an Allen Hunt Show poll asked for views on torture, 50 percent of the participants indicated their preference for the position: "Am A Christian – And I Support Torture."

Hunt himself, thank God, is opposed to the practice. And in a story on OneNewsNow (a division of the American Family New Network) about Southern Baptist leader Richard Land saying that the use of waterboarding is unethical, a poll asked simply: "Do you agree with Dr. Land? Is waterboarding ‘unethical’?" The results: less than 10 percent agreed with Land. What is interesting about Land is that he fully supports Bush’s war on terror, minus the torture, of course.

These are unbelievable poll results. Christian torture advocates should be ashamed of themselves for being so ignorant of New Testament ethics. This is FrontPage Magazine Christianity. This is National Review Christianity. This is imperial Christianity at its worse. I lay a great deal of the blame on pastors for being servants of the state instead of servants of Christ. It is pastors who ought to be teaching and warning their congregations about what is wrong with the U.S. empire, the U.S. military, the CIA, U.S. wars, and U.S. foreign policy. Instead, we have pastors that lead their congregations to pledge to the flag, sing praise to the state on every national holiday, and honor the U.S. war machine on special military appreciation days.

It is one thing for Christians to think that the Republican Party is the lesser of two evils, that we should be fighting a global war on terror, that U.S. troops are defending our freedoms by fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, that we are protecting Israel by fighting against terrorism, that it is "liberal" to be opposed to war, that we should fight them "over there" lest we have to fight them "over here," or that Iraq attacked us on 9/11 (all completely bogus ideas) – but this in no way justifies torture.
We didn’t torture Nazi war criminals to reveal the names of others similarly guilty. Although we sentenced some of them to death, and some of them to prison terms, we never tortured them even though they were guilty of genocide. We don’t torture serial killers to get them to reveal where all the bodies of their victims are buried. Even when we call them monsters and sentence them to death, we still don’t torture them. We don’t allow police to torture suspects until they confess to committing a crime, and neither do we allow confessions obtained by torture to be used in court. Heck, we didn’t even torture Saddam Hussein when we captured and imprisoned him.

We associate torture with Japan (American WWII POWs), North Korea (American Korean War POWs), China (recently deceased Air Force Colonel Harold E. Fischer), and Vietnam (just ask John McCain).
We associate torture with third-world prisons, the KGB, the Stasi, and other secret police organizations, the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Reign of Terror, mass murderers, massacres, and genocides.

We associate torture with the Soviet Union under Stalin, China under Mao, Germany under Hitler, Korea under Kim Il-sung, Cuba under Castro, Cambodia under Pol Pot, Iraq under Saddam Hussein, and Uganda under Idi Amin.

We associate torture with everything that is evil, vile, and inhuman.
What have we come to in the United States when people who name the name of Christ support torture? How dare Christians criticize Muslims for saying that Islam is a religion of peace and then advocate the torturing of suspected terrorists. By their support for torture, Christians have given "great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme" (2 Samuel 12:14).

 

[dewaddict84]

Word!

 

[cfish]

Torture is horrible! I don't see how anyone can support it. There is no just cause for torturing anyone no matter what they have done.

 

[Alaskan_Frontier]

So should we waterboard our own troops? It happens to prepare them(some troops) for what they may encounter if captured.

 

[leveled]

Question: Would YOU torture someone?

I can't imagine ever doing such a thing.

I would kill someone to stop them from doing imminent harm to an innocent... but how could anyone ever justify torture?

Perhaps they have a good motive... but I don't know if I can picture this and convince myself of it.

 

[marlowe007]

Christian authorities have been torturing their enemies for centuries - the most notable example being Jacques de Molay and the Knights Templars in the 14th Century. One time, the leader of the Templars stripped himself naked during a private meeting with the Pope's cardinals to show them the red marks on his skin. It looked as though several layers of skin had been ripped off. This episode was so heartbreaking that it was enough to convince the cardinals of his innocence.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

Hurting or harming is MURDER.

i am sure Jesus did not DIE so we could go around murdering people who possibly could do us harm.
Do I dare quote Scripture, as if I needed to?

 

[followerofthename]

OP, you said it very well. Unfortunately, whenever the Chruch has placed it's trust in princes, it becomes corrupted.

Christ came not to make a political entity, but a subursive Kingdom that turned the world's order on it's head: seek to serve, not to rule; seek to heal, not to kill; seek to save, not to conquer.

I am not a pacificst--I believe in the right of self-defense. But advocating torture is not a Christian value. It's not even an American value, not when we look at the founder's principles.

I think that in a few years--maybe more than a few--we'll come to our senses and realize how we allowed Satan to use our "righteous indignation" to serve him rather than the living God. The Devil is never more powerful when he hijacks a good cause.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

OP, you said it very well. Unfortunately, whenever the Chruch has placed it's trust in princes, it becomes corrupted.

Christ came not to make a political entity, but a subursive Kingdom that turned the world's order on it's head: seek to serve, not to rule; seek to heal, not to kill; seek to save, not to conquer. we allowed Satan to use our "righteous indignation" to serve him

Sorry to cut your post dear brother. But I simply want to assure you that we have done just that, and in so doing, allowed the secret societies which control our govt, our money, and our defense, to further satans cause.

the advent of a/c is nigh.

And the beasts are preparing to raise him up.

 

[Moraiah]

Christians for Torture
Laurence M. Vance
Lew Rockwell.com
Thursday, May 14, 2009

Taken from the Alex Jones Show


The most ardent atheist would be rendered speechless should he hear of Christians for abortion, profanity, adultery, or drunkenness. Of all people in the world, it is certainly Christians – and especially the conservative, evangelical, and fundamentalist kind – that atheists, agnostics, and infidels expect to be opposed to these things.

So what in the world is an atheist to think when he sees the widespread Christian support for torture? Yes, torture. But don’t Christians claim to follow the ethics of Jesus and the apostles in the New Testament? Aren’t Christians commanded to put off anger, wrath, and malice (Colossians 3:8), "be ready to every good work" (Titus 3:1), and "live peaceably with all men" (Romans 12:18)? Yes, Christians.

What is really tragic is that most Christians who of late have weighed in on the subject of torture are not arguing whether or not waterboarding and other "enhanced interrogation techniques" constitute torture – they readily admit that they do – but that torture is justified in the name of fighting terrorism, national security, defending our freedoms, keeping us safe, or protecting our children and grandchildren.

In my recent article "Waterboard an A-rab for Jesus," I mentioned two polls which showed that a great percentage of evangelicals supported the use of torture against suspected terrorists. Now come two additional surveys that are even more shocking. When an Allen Hunt Show poll asked for views on torture, 50 percent of the participants indicated their preference for the position: "Am A Christian – And I Support Torture."

Hunt himself, thank God, is opposed to the practice. And in a story on OneNewsNow (a division of the American Family New Network) about Southern Baptist leader Richard Land saying that the use of waterboarding is unethical, a poll asked simply: "Do you agree with Dr. Land? Is waterboarding ‘unethical’?" The results: less than 10 percent agreed with Land. What is interesting about Land is that he fully supports Bush’s war on terror, minus the torture, of course.

These are unbelievable poll results. Christian torture advocates should be ashamed of themselves for being so ignorant of New Testament ethics. This is FrontPage Magazine Christianity. This is National Review Christianity. This is imperial Christianity at its worse. I lay a great deal of the blame on pastors for being servants of the state instead of servants of Christ. It is pastors who ought to be teaching and warning their congregations about what is wrong with the U.S. empire, the U.S. military, the CIA, U.S. wars, and U.S. foreign policy. Instead, we have pastors that lead their congregations to pledge to the flag, sing praise to the state on every national holiday, and honor the U.S. war machine on special military appreciation days.

It is one thing for Christians to think that the Republican Party is the lesser of two evils, that we should be fighting a global war on terror, that U.S. troops are defending our freedoms by fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, that we are protecting Israel by fighting against terrorism, that it is "liberal" to be opposed to war, that we should fight them "over there" lest we have to fight them "over here," or that Iraq attacked us on 9/11 (all completely bogus ideas) – but this in no way justifies torture.
We didn’t torture Nazi war criminals to reveal the names of others similarly guilty. Although we sentenced some of them to death, and some of them to prison terms, we never tortured them even though they were guilty of genocide. We don’t torture serial killers to get them to reveal where all the bodies of their victims are buried. Even when we call them monsters and sentence them to death, we still don’t torture them. We don’t allow police to torture suspects until they confess to committing a crime, and neither do we allow confessions obtained by torture to be used in court. Heck, we didn’t even torture Saddam Hussein when we captured and imprisoned him.

We associate torture with Japan (American WWII POWs), North Korea (American Korean War POWs), China (recently deceased Air Force Colonel Harold E. Fischer), and Vietnam (just ask John McCain).
We associate torture with third-world prisons, the KGB, the Stasi, and other secret police organizations, the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Reign of Terror, mass murderers, massacres, and genocides.

We associate torture with the Soviet Union under Stalin, China under Mao, Germany under Hitler, Korea under Kim Il-sung, Cuba under Castro, Cambodia under Pol Pot, Iraq under Saddam Hussein, and Uganda under Idi Amin.

We associate torture with everything that is evil, vile, and inhuman.
What have we come to in the United States when people who name the name of Christ support torture? How dare Christians criticize Muslims for saying that Islam is a religion of peace and then advocate the torturing of suspected terrorists. By their support for torture, Christians have given "great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme" (2 Samuel 12:14).

Well someone obviously has a thing for atheists, am I the only one a bit unnerved by the rampant generalizations in this article (or transcript?), atheists are great but the christians "who of late have weighed in on the subject of torture are not arguing whether or not waterboarding and other "enhanced interrogation techniques" constitute torture – they readily admit that they do – but that torture is justified in the name of fighting terrorism, national security, defending our freedoms, keeping us safe, or protecting our children and grandchildren."

Well that's just great, those evil Christians! I would love to take a look at the polls used to decide this because I have yet to meet one Christians who would advocate the use of torture. Not that they're not out there, they are but so are adherents of other faiths who feel the same way since wanting 'revenge' and the desire to stay safe are human qualities. To me this just seems like another blatant attempt to dehumanize Christians and possibly conservatives in general since they threw that term around a bit too while raising atheists up on a pedestal.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

Well someone obviously has a thing for atheists, am I the only one a bit unnerved by the rampant generalizations in this article (or transcript?), atheists are great but the christians "who of late have weighed in on the subject of torture are not arguing whether or not waterboarding and other "enhanced interrogation techniques" constitute torture – they readily admit that they do – but that torture is justified in the name of fighting terrorism, national security, defending our freedoms, keeping us safe, or protecting our children and grandchildren."

Well that's just great, those evil Christians! I would love to take a look at the polls used to decide this because I have yet to meet one Christians who would advocate the use of torture. Not that they're not out there, they are but so are adherents of other faiths who feel the same way since wanting 'revenge' and the desire to stay safe are human qualities. To me this just seems like another blatant attempt to dehumanize Christians and possibly conservatives in general since they threw that term around a bit too while raising atheists up on a pedestal.

Dearest sister Moriah,

I believe this article speaks to the fact that while we profess Jesus the Only Christ with our lips, and we raise up His name in worship, our deeds and actions make it appear as if our hearts were far from Him.

Hypocrits make a bad example of our faith since the old saying "one bad apple spoils the bushel" is true irt this. Sin is as a disease, and it spreads thus, when we accept it and don't treat it( repent from it).

It is SOOOOOOOO true that we must never take sides in war, except when our Beloved is come again and He literally yanks us out of here to wage it.

I understand that you personally might not know this group of whom the OP challenges, but i am in Central KY and have seen firsthand the worship of the beast, while invoking the Spirit of God.

I have left 6 churches for this very reason. i am all for praying for the safety of our troops, but when a Pastor goes as far as saying in the prayer may God grant them victory over the evil Islamists, I literally walk out of the church during the prayer.

Over and over and over and over again.

 

[ShaolinWarrior27]

I'm probably the minority in this, unless you go by this article, but I believe that in cases of defense - including preemptive measures - that torture is acceptable. The context of war dramatically affects ethics. If you have to employ torture to extract information that will save the lives/health of your countrymen, then do it. That doesn't mean that torture should be used for entertainment, though. Even though torture isn't specifically mentioned in the Bible, the Old Testament is littered with occasions where God called His people to war. I never want to try and pretend I know what God's thinking, but ethics are context based. War inherently tends to take things that would never be acceptable in any other situation and flips them upside down. We can only make the best decisions based on our own personal faith in God and the abilities He's given us.

 

[Buzzy]

The STRAWMAN argument that most Christians support torture is a mere bolster for the love of atheism the poster pollutes the forum with. To post lies and half truths in the guise of being Christian is the biggest sin by far.

 

[homewardbound]

How about something a bit more current than Spring of 2009? Gosh, surely some of us evil Christians have been enlightened by now. I'm sure the poll, if taken today, would show us to be much kinder and gentler.

Maybe I should launch my own poll and ask which is worse...to support the use of torture in wartime conditions, or to use contrived polls in an attempt to put Christians in as negative a light as possible?

 

[kiwimac]

Christians for Torture
Laurence M. Vance
Lew Rockwell.com
Thursday, May 14, 2009

Taken from the Alex Jones Show


The most ardent atheist would be rendered speechless should he hear of Christians for abortion, profanity, adultery, or drunkenness. Of all people in the world, it is certainly Christians – and especially the conservative, evangelical, and fundamentalist kind – that atheists, agnostics, and infidels expect to be opposed to these things.

So what in the world is an atheist to think when he sees the widespread Christian support for torture? Yes, torture. But don’t Christians claim to follow the ethics of Jesus and the apostles in the New Testament? Aren’t Christians commanded to put off anger, wrath, and malice (Colossians 3:8), "be ready to every good work" (Titus 3:1), and "live peaceably with all men" (Romans 12:18)? Yes, Christians.

What is really tragic is that most Christians who of late have weighed in on the subject of torture are not arguing whether or not waterboarding and other "enhanced interrogation techniques" constitute torture – they readily admit that they do – but that torture is justified in the name of fighting terrorism, national security, defending our freedoms, keeping us safe, or protecting our children and grandchildren.

In my recent article "Waterboard an A-rab for Jesus," I mentioned two polls which showed that a great percentage of evangelicals supported the use of torture against suspected terrorists. Now come two additional surveys that are even more shocking. When an Allen Hunt Show poll asked for views on torture, 50 percent of the participants indicated their preference for the position: "Am A Christian – And I Support Torture."

Hunt himself, thank God, is opposed to the practice. And in a story on OneNewsNow (a division of the American Family New Network) about Southern Baptist leader Richard Land saying that the use of waterboarding is unethical, a poll asked simply: "Do you agree with Dr. Land? Is waterboarding ‘unethical’?" The results: less than 10 percent agreed with Land. What is interesting about Land is that he fully supports Bush’s war on terror, minus the torture, of course.

These are unbelievable poll results. Christian torture advocates should be ashamed of themselves for being so ignorant of New Testament ethics. This is FrontPage Magazine Christianity. This is National Review Christianity. This is imperial Christianity at its worse. I lay a great deal of the blame on pastors for being servants of the state instead of servants of Christ. It is pastors who ought to be teaching and warning their congregations about what is wrong with the U.S. empire, the U.S. military, the CIA, U.S. wars, and U.S. foreign policy. Instead, we have pastors that lead their congregations to pledge to the flag, sing praise to the state on every national holiday, and honor the U.S. war machine on special military appreciation days.

It is one thing for Christians to think that the Republican Party is the lesser of two evils, that we should be fighting a global war on terror, that U.S. troops are defending our freedoms by fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, that we are protecting Israel by fighting against terrorism, that it is "liberal" to be opposed to war, that we should fight them "over there" lest we have to fight them "over here," or that Iraq attacked us on 9/11 (all completely bogus ideas) – but this in no way justifies torture.
We didn’t torture Nazi war criminals to reveal the names of others similarly guilty. Although we sentenced some of them to death, and some of them to prison terms, we never tortured them even though they were guilty of genocide. We don’t torture serial killers to get them to reveal where all the bodies of their victims are buried. Even when we call them monsters and sentence them to death, we still don’t torture them. We don’t allow police to torture suspects until they confess to committing a crime, and neither do we allow confessions obtained by torture to be used in court. Heck, we didn’t even torture Saddam Hussein when we captured and imprisoned him.

We associate torture with Japan (American WWII POWs), North Korea (American Korean War POWs), China (recently deceased Air Force Colonel Harold E. Fischer), and Vietnam (just ask John McCain).
We associate torture with third-world prisons, the KGB, the Stasi, and other secret police organizations, the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Reign of Terror, mass murderers, massacres, and genocides.

We associate torture with the Soviet Union under Stalin, China under Mao, Germany under Hitler, Korea under Kim Il-sung, Cuba under Castro, Cambodia under Pol Pot, Iraq under Saddam Hussein, and Uganda under Idi Amin.

We associate torture with everything that is evil, vile, and inhuman.
What have we come to in the United States when people who name the name of Christ support torture? How dare Christians criticize Muslims for saying that Islam is a religion of peace and then advocate the torturing of suspected terrorists. By their support for torture, Christians have given "great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme" (2 Samuel 12:14).

^^This!

 

[kiwimac]

How about something a bit more current than Spring of 2009? Gosh, surely some of us evil Christians have been enlightened by now. I'm sure the poll, if taken today, would show us to be much kinder and gentler.

Maybe I should launch my own poll and ask which is worse...to support the use of torture in wartime conditions, or to use contrived polls in an attempt to put Christians in as negative a light as possible?

Do you personally support torture?

 

[homewardbound]

Do you personally support torture?

You think I'm going to walk into that trap? Give me a situation and your definition of torture.

Besides, what difference does my opinion make? Are you or anyone else here to judge whether or not I'm a "good" Christian?

 

[visionary]

Torture has been proven not to work... people will say anything to stop the torture... so who benefits from torture,.. those who like it.

 

[kiwimac]

Should a Christian support torture?

Christians often live in conflict with the world around us. At this present time this conflict is clear when it comes to the question of torture. Some in authority around us would have us believe that torture is an acceptable means for gathering information, especially when someone labeled a terrorist holds that information. However as Christians we are bound not to accept that argument.

In the following paper I will look at the reasons I believe that Christians should not support torture.

Humans Made in God’s Image.

In Genesis 1:27 we are told that human beings are made in God’s image. We are, according to the Genesis story, the special creation of a loving God, further in Genesis 9:6 this principle is extended (by implication) to all human beings. Christians have always considered that God has endowed us with certain inalienable rights and that God shows us the value of humanity, firstly, in creating us and, secondly, in becoming one of us in the Incarnation.

Because a human being is of infinite worth to God we cannot disfigure, torment or harm another person also made in God’s image and also of infinite worth.

Do not vex the Stranger in your midst.

Time after time the Old Testament reminds us that God has a compassionate concern for the vulnerable in our midst, the widow, the orphan, the stranger all these are recipient’s of God’s special interest. God condemns any form of injustice that further marginalizes these already hurting folk who are at the mercy of the society around them.

We are called to recall our own vulnerability and to remember that we too were once strangers in a strange land, lacking support and seeking justice rather than injustice and oppression. (Ex 22:21; Ex. 23:9; Lev. 19:33 & 34; Deut. 10:18-19.)

All human life is God’s gift.

We are reminded in Psalm 139:13; Psalm 22:10 and Jeremiah 1:5 that all human beings are formed in the loving concern of God. All those who live and move and have their being do so in the grace and compassion of God. When we deliberately damage them, as we do in torture, we mar and afflict the plan of God for these folk; we sin against them and against God who brought them forth from the womb alive.

Further torture fails the test of the Great Commandment to love others as we love ourselves and is condemned in Matthew 25: 31 ff., where Jesus quite clearly says that when we hurt, afflict and torture someone we are doing it to him. Again, torture is a breach of 1 Corinthians 13 and a profound failure of morals.

Moreover torture does not just warp the tortured but also the torturer, in ordering the torture of a human being we are responsible not just for damage done to the victim but also to the person who is our tool in carrying out the torture.

We turn, by accepting torture, ordinary human beings into sadists and potential murderers for information that most often is given solely to stop the pain being inflicted. As well torture inevitably affects the moral standing of the society and nation which allows it. Once begun it is difficult to stop, once used on ‘terrorists’ from outside of a society, it is hard not to use it on dissenters within the society.

In summary then, torture demeans and damages humans who were purposed by God, who are loved by God and for whom Christ lived and died. It is a breaking of both Old and New Testament commandments and a damage to the moral structure of both individual human beings and the society that uses and enables it. For these reasons I do not believe that a Christian can ever support torture.

 

[FromTheDarknessToTheLight]

Well, hell is torture, and that's where God sends those who are unworthy. It's confusing, and it hurts my faith, but even God is capable of torture, and on a much greater scale - eternity.