Christians do not "own" morality

Syd the Human · Apr 30, 2014

Ruthie24 said:
Part 4

Jasher 2:19-22

19 an in those days the sons of men began to trespass against God and to go contrary to the commandments which had been given to Adam to be prolific and reproduce in the earth
20 and some of the sons of men caused their wives to drink a mixture that would render them unable to conceive, in order that they might retain their figures and their beautiful appearance might not fade
21 and when the sons of men, caused some of their wives to drink, Zillah drank with them
22 and the childbearing women appeared abominable in the site of their husbands and they treated them as widows while their husbands lived with those unable to conceive and to those women they were attached

Jasher 4
18 and their (the nephilim) judges and rulers went to the daughters of men and took their wives by force from their husbands according to their choice and the sons of men in those days took from the cattle of the earth, the beasts of the field,and the fowls of the air and taught men the mixture of animals of one species with the other in order to provoke the Lord; and God saw the whole earth and it was corrupt for all flesh had corrupted its ways on earth, all men and all animals.
19 and the Lord said, I will blot out man that I created from the face of the earth, yea from man to the birds of the air together with cattle and beast that are in the field for I repent I ever made them
20 and all men who walked in the ways of the Lord died in those days before the Lord brought the evil on man which he had declared, for this was from the Lord that they should not see the evil witch the Lord spoke of concerning the sons of men

1 Enoch 9

1 And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being done on the earth, and all lawlessness being done on the earth

2 and they said to each other let the cries from the destruction of Earth a signed up to the gates of heaven

3 and now to you the Holy Ones of heaven the souls of men make their petition saying bring our case before the Most High

4 and they said to the Lord of the ages, Lord of lords, God of gods, King of Kings and God of the ages, the throne of your glory endures through all generations of the ages and your name holy and glorious and blessed to all the ages.

5 you have made all things and you have power over all things and all things are revealed open in your site and you see all things and nothing can hide itself from you

6 look Azazel has done who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were made and kept in heaven which men were striving to learn

7 and Semyaza who taught spells to whom you gave gave authority to rule over his associates

8 and they have gone to the daughters of men on the earth and have had sex with the women, and have defiled themselves and revealed to them all kinds of sins.

9 and the women have borne Giants and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness

See comparison to Genesis 6:5

10 and now behold the souls of those who've died are crying out and making their petition to the gates of heaven, and their lament has ascended and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are done on the earth

11 and you know all things before they come to pass and you see these things and you have permitted them, and say nothing to us about these things. What are we to do with them about them about these things?

Chapter 10

1-6

(This is when God ordered the binding of the fallen angels, commanded Uriel to warn Noah about the flood, and cast Azazel into a split in the desert of Dudael.)

7 and heal the earth which the Angels have ruined and proclaim the healing of the earth, for I will restore the earth and heal the plague, but not all of the children of men may parish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons.

10 The whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel:
to him ascribe ALL SIN.

9 to Gabriel said the Lord to proceed against the bastards and the reprobates and against the children of fornication and destroy the children of fornication and the children of the Watchers. Cause them to go against one another that they may destroy each other in battle: shorten their days.

10 no request that (the Watchers) their fathers make of you shall be granted them on their behalf are they hope to live an eternal life and that each one of them will live five hundred years.

11 and the Lord said to Michael go bind Semyaza and his team who associated with women and defiled themselves in all their uncleanness

12 when their sons have slain one another and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones (nephilim) bind them fast for 70 generations under the hills of the earth, until the day of the consummation of their judgment and until the eternal judgment is accomplished

13 in those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire and to torment and prison in which they shall be confined forever

14 then Semyazs shall be burnt up with the condemned and they will be destroyed having been bound together with them to the end of all generations

15 destroy all the spirits of lust and the children of the watchers because they have wronged mankind

16 destroy all wrong from the face of the earth and let every evil work come to an end (and let the earth be planted with righteousness) the plants of righteousness and truth appear; and it shall prove a blessing, the works of righteousness and truth be planted and joy for evermore

(Compare with Genesis 6:7)

The account then goes on to proclaim the flood, the new earth.

Chapter 15

8 now the Giants who are produced from the spirit and flesh shall be called evil spirits on the earth
( ***this is demonic entities***)

9 live on the Earth. Evil spirits have come out from their bodies because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers, they're beginning is of primal origin

10 they shall be evil spirits on earth and evil spirits shall be called the spirits of the evil ones. [As for the spirits of heaven in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born on the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling]. And the spirits of the Giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, war, destroy, and cause trouble on the earth.

11. They take no food but do not hungry or thirst. They cause offenses is but are not observed.

12 and these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them in the days of the slaughter and destruction.

The Book of Jubilees:

Because all of these three things came the flood on the earth namely the fornication that the watchers committed against the law of their ordinances when they went whoring after the daughters of men and took them selves wives of all they chose and they made the beginning of uncleanness.

And the begat sons the Nephilim (Naphidim- the fallen) and they were all the dissimilar and they devoured one another, and the Giants killed the Naphil, and the Naphil killed the Eljo, and the Eljo killed mankind, and one man killed another. Everyone committed himself to crime and injustice and to shed much blood and the earth was filled with sin.

After this they sinned against the beasts and the birds and all that moved and walked on the earth and much blood was shed on the earth and men continually desired only what was useless and evil.

And the Lord destroyed everything from the face of the earth. Because of wickedness of their deeds and because of the blood they had shed over all the earth, he destroyed everything.

Chapter 16

1 And at the death of the Giants, spirits will go out and destroy without incurring judgment, coming from their bodies their flesh shall be destroyed until the day of the consummation, the great judgment in which the age shall be consummated, over the Watchers and the godless, and shall be wholly consummated.

See Matthew 8:28

End

You can read further online. All of these books are free.

Ruthie24 said:
God created all the angels, but 200 of these these fell from Him. They directly disobeyed God when they had sex or raped human women. When they mingled their demonic, human, and animal genetics, it created the embodiment for demonic spirits, the nephilim, NOT human souls. They are not human. They have no concept of humanity. Their intentions were to directly destroy all of humanity, to reverse creation, to destroy God. The intentions of the Fallen Angels were to directly disobey God. In Isaiah is says the Fallen angel Lucifer/Semyaza/Azazel not only wanted to be like God, he wanted to BE God and destroy all of his creations. Their intentions are completely against all creation, against the song of creation, against the light of God. There is no light, no soul, no nothing in these chimeras. They are nothing but pure 100% unadulterated evil. They make human serial killers look like child's play. This is the true Left Hand Path, the true Satanic Agenda. It has absolutely no good, no light, nothing of value in it except to destroy everything God created. "As in the days of Noah..."

I did not see anything about them not having a soul in the text you provided but you know what? It doesn't matter. Regardless of what you say, they are still human.

You have not refuted any point that I just made. Except for the part about god creating angels, you just went on without addressing what I said, so I will re-post.

"Did the angels have sex with a human and from that did they produce a child?

If the answer is yes, then it is indeed still human due to human lineage.

Besides, did god not create angels as well? Or, is god not actually the creator of everything? Besides, even in the animal kingdom there are hybrids. Are they now no longer animals? If so, which are still animals and which are not?

And again, humans have also "enslaved, tortured, cannibalized, murdered, and sacrificed" people. Nothing new here at all.

edit: You even furthered my point that they are still human by saying they were cannibals. The only way an organism is a cannibal is by eating their own species. We are not a cannibal for eating a cow, but by eating a human."

I already explained why they are still human.

I have shown that they do the exact same things that humans do.

God committed a genocide because he gave up. No matter how you discuss it that is what happened. Even if they were people without souls, he could have given them one. He could have sent himself to die for himself sooner. He could have prevented the angels from doing this. He waited, let people suffer, and then committed genocide.

You can't escape this.

Ruthie24 · Apr 30, 2014

Syd the Human said:
I did not see anything about them not having a soul in the text you provided but you know what? It doesn't matter. Regardless of what you say, they are still human.

You have not refuted any point that I just made. Except for the part about god creating angels, you just went on without addressing what I said, so I will re-post.

"Did the angels have sex with a human and from that did they produce a child?

If the answer is yes, then it is indeed still human due to human lineage.

Besides, did god not create angels as well? Or, is god not actually the creator of everything? Besides, even in the animal kingdom there are hybrids. Are they now no longer animals? If so, which are still animals and which are not?

And again, humans have also "enslaved, tortured, cannibalized, murdered, and sacrificed" people. Nothing new here at all.

edit: You even furthered my point that they are still human by saying they were cannibals. The only way an organism is a cannibal is by eating their own species. We are not a cannibal for eating a cow, but by eating a human."

I already explained why they are still human.

I have shown that they do the exact same things that humans do.

God committed a genocide because he gave up. No matter how you discuss it that is what happened. Even if they were people without souls, he could have given them one. He could have sent himself to die for himself sooner. He could have prevented the angels from doing this. He waited, let people suffer, and then committed genocide.

You can't escape this.

They are not human. They are hybrid chimera embodying demonic spirits. They do not have human souls. They are not human but things which embody demons. You continue to miss the demonic part, which is the key to the entire issue. I have made my point. If you want to continue to disagree with scripture be my guest.

Syd the Human · Apr 30, 2014

Ruthie24 said:
They are not human. They are hybrid chimera embodying demonic spirits. They do not have human souls. They are not human but things which embody demons. You continue to miss the demonic part, which is the key to the entire issue. I have made my point. If you want to continue to disagree with scripture be my guest.

I haven't missed anything, I am fully aware that according to this text fallen angels procreated with humans. I have addressed the text and your points, and you haven't discussed the points that I have now posted twice. We've both made points, you just haven't been able to fully address mine.

Chany · Apr 30, 2014

Ruthie24 said:
Chany

You can believe what you want and so will I. An argument does not stand as evidence. Evidence supports or does not support an argument. The argument alone does not qualify as evidence. I don't know how to explain to you that pure evil beings existed in a human animal demonic form and needed to be killed. I know a lot of people haven't come across real evil or sat down with a serial murderer and spoken with them. When it comes to these demonic hybrids, they were beyond the human scope of evil in the human serial killer. This is because they were NOT human but completely demonic and they needed to be destroyed.

When you encounter a demonic entity, it totally changes your perception of reality. You get a very profound and life altering paradigm shift. After that, the way you see life and it's workings are never the same, never. Many times you wish you had never encountered those demonic things but I believe that the hand of God is on us all as human beings whether we see it or not.

So, all of the people and things God killed, ordering the killing of, or had his followers order the killing of in the Bible were these creatures?

Archaeopteryx · May 1, 2014

Ruthie24 said:
Syd: those things are not human, they were created from fallen angels with a mixture of angelic, human, and animal to create a chimera that would embody a demonic spirit. They were not God's creation at all, they were directly created from the fallen angels. In the Bible, specifically in the NT the book of Enoch is mentioned or alluded too over 100 times. These things the fallen angels created, enslaved, tortured, cannibalized, murdered, and sacrificed God's people. They are not human, they do not embody human souls, they were not made by God, they were made by Demonic Fallen Angels who directly disobeyed God. I put up posts about Enoch part 1-4. You don't have to read the entire book, the posts that refer to the nephilim are in there.

They're orcs?

Ruthie24 · May 1, 2014

Archaeopteryx said:
They're orcs?

That's pretty clever Gandolf ;-)

Ruthie24 · May 1, 2014

Chany said:
So, all of the people and things God killed, ordering the killing of, or had his followers order the killing of in the Bible were these creatures?

I'm referring to Enoch, the flood and the groups of people who were connected to the nephilim either by blood or worshipping them. I'd have to go back through it again and list all the names associated with them, but it's in there.

Chany · May 1, 2014

Ruthie24 said:
I'm referring to Enoch, the flood and the groups of people who were connected to the nephilim either by blood or worshipping them. I'd have to go back through it again and list all the names associated with them, but it's in there.

No, no, no. Worshiping or being relating to the nephilim doesn't count.

You can debate that demons given a physical body need to be destroyed (which does not explain why there are still demons in the first place, but I'll let it go), but you can't say the same of humans who just happened to have nephilim blood or the people who worshiped them. They're still people, so the ban cannot apply to them. They can be saved, their souls corrected, and their bodies healed. They do not need to be killed.

Also, I'm not solely talking about the people killed in the flood.

Ruthie24 · May 1, 2014

Chany said:
No, no, no. Worshiping or being relating to the nephilim doesn't count.

You can debate that demons given a physical body need to be destroyed (which does not explain why there are still demons in the first place, but I'll let it go), but you can't say the same of humans who just happened to have nephilim blood or the people who worshiped them. They're still people, so the ban cannot apply to them. They can be saved, their souls corrected, and their bodies healed. They do not need to be killed.

Also, I'm not solely talking about the people killed in the flood.

I guess what you would need to do is go through the books of Enoch, Jasher, Jubilees and the OT/NT. I'm not a scholar on this and don't feel I can do it justice. You have to go through the books just like I did to find the connections.

I was fully ready to give up my faith and become an atheist had it not been for this research. There are just too many connections that point to God Christ Jesus and the Fallen angels.

Syd the Human · May 1, 2014

Ruthie24 said:
I guess what you would need to do is go through the books of Enoch, Jasher, Jubilees and the OT/NT. I'm not a scholar on this and don't feel I can do it justice. You have to go through the books just like I did to find the connections.

I was fully ready to give up my faith and become an atheist had it not been for this research. There are just too many connections that point to God Christ Jesus and the Fallen angels.

There is evidence of this outside the Bible and other religious writings? If you can explain this.

Ruthie24 · May 1, 2014

Syd the Human said:
There is evidence of this outside the Bible and other religious writings? If you can explain this.

Actually there is, sad to say. In other religions and other sources. No one has ever asked me to explain it and I'm not sure how to grapple with all the stuff I've found out. The world is a kaleidoscope manifesting this story. I wish none of this were true. I wish I had never stumbled upon this crap, but that's what you get when you are at the end of your rope. When you say to God f*** you show me the f****** evidence or I'm outta here, God says, "OK but you better be ready and not complain." And that's basically what you get when you keep knocking and digging. I would have been much happier being an atheist.
I don't really know how to explain observing demonic phenomena on a personal level because one) no one would believe you, two) the fear and hate that are coupled with this kind of thing (what those things live off of ) is really of a level that is hard for people to conceptualize. There is an energy to fear especially in the young that those things feed off of. It's like their oxygen. The Left Hand Path has been in existence since the 200 angels fell. That's THEIR religion. It's got a lot of names, but the essence is still the same. I don't have all the answers, but unfortunately I am convinced of what I've found out due to things I've literally stumbled upon.

Like I said before, I'm not a scholar, I'm not a 100% on anything really, except for me personally I was unfortunately given an opportunity to connect the dots. Now maybe those dots are malarkey but then history of the world would show it to be such. All I can say is, if you look underneath enough rocks unfortunately you will find the caves.

2PhiloVoid · May 1, 2014

Ruthie24 said:
Actually there is, sad to say. In other religions and other sources. No one has ever asked me to explain it and I'm not sure how to grapple with all the stuff I've found out. The world is a kaleidoscope manifesting this story. I wish none of this were true. I wish I had never stumbled upon this crap, but that's what you get when you are at the end of your rope. When you say to God f*** you show me the f****** evidence or I'm outta here, God says, "OK but you better be ready and not complain." And that's basically what you get when you keep knocking and digging. I would have been much happier being an atheist.
I don't really know how to explain observing demonic phenomena on a personal level because one) no one would believe you, two) the fear and hate that are coupled with this kind of thing (what those things live off of ) is really of a level that is hard for people to conceptualize. There is an energy to fear especially in the young that those things feed off of. It's like their oxygen. The Left Hand Path has been in existence since the 200 angels fell. That's THEIR religion. It's got a lot of names, but the essence is still the same. I don't have all the answers, but unfortunately I am convinced of what I've found out due to things I've literally stumbled upon.

Like I said before, I'm not a scholar, I'm not a 100% on anything really, except for me personally I was unfortunately given an opportunity to connect the dots. Now maybe those dots are malarkey but then history of the world would show it to be such. All I can say is, if you look underneath enough rocks unfortunately you will find the caves.

Hello Ruthie (and thread members),

Ruthie, while I find your research interesting in that it definitely brings to our attention various apocryphal books that present later elaborations on the Genocidal incidents in the O.T, I think we might want to keep in mind that God did what He did overall because He holds all nations to the same standard, including Israel. Therefore, if nations just so happen to keep on keeping on with godless practices, God will eventually make a solid end of those nations and/or people groups. See Leviticus 18 & 20.

Peace

steve_bakr · May 1, 2014

Ruthie24 said:
Actually there is, sad to say. In other religions and other sources. No one has ever asked me to explain it and I'm not sure how to grapple with all the stuff I've found out. The world is a kaleidoscope manifesting this story. I wish none of this were true. I wish I had never stumbled upon this crap, but that's what you get when you are at the end of your rope. When you say to God f*** you show me the f****** evidence or I'm outta here, God says, "OK but you better be ready and not complain." And that's basically what you get when you keep knocking and digging. I would have been much happier being an atheist.
I don't really know how to explain observing demonic phenomena on a personal level because one) no one would believe you, two) the fear and hate that are coupled with this kind of thing (what those things live off of ) is really of a level that is hard for people to conceptualize. There is an energy to fear especially in the young that those things feed off of. It's like their oxygen. The Left Hand Path has been in existence since the 200 angels fell. That's THEIR religion. It's got a lot of names, but the essence is still the same. I don't have all the answers, but unfortunately I am convinced of what I've found out due to things I've literally stumbled upon.

Like I said before, I'm not a scholar, I'm not a 100% on anything really, except for me personally I was unfortunately given an opportunity to connect the dots. Now maybe those dots are malarkey but then history of the world would show it to be such. All I can say is, if you look underneath enough rocks unfortunately you will find the caves.

I would just suggest that you keep your eyes on God and have faith in his Mercy.

Syd the Human · May 1, 2014

Syd the Human said:
There is evidence of this outside the Bible and other religious writings? If you can explain this.

Ruthie24 said:
Actually there is, sad to say. In other religions and other sources. No one has ever asked me to explain it and I'm not sure how to grapple with all the stuff I've found out. The world is a kaleidoscope manifesting this story. I wish none of this were true. I wish I had never stumbled upon this crap, but that's what you get when you are at the end of your rope. When you say to God f*** you show me the f****** evidence or I'm outta here, God says, "OK but you better be ready and not complain." And that's basically what you get when you keep knocking and digging. I would have been much happier being an atheist.
I don't really know how to explain observing demonic phenomena on a personal level because one) no one would believe you, two) the fear and hate that are coupled with this kind of thing (what those things live off of ) is really of a level that is hard for people to conceptualize. There is an energy to fear especially in the young that those things feed off of. It's like their oxygen. The Left Hand Path has been in existence since the 200 angels fell. That's THEIR religion. It's got a lot of names, but the essence is still the same. I don't have all the answers, but unfortunately I am convinced of what I've found out due to things I've literally stumbled upon.

Like I said before, I'm not a scholar, I'm not a 100% on anything really, except for me personally I was unfortunately given an opportunity to connect the dots. Now maybe those dots are malarkey but then history of the world would show it to be such. All I can say is, if you look underneath enough rocks unfortunately you will find the caves.

I did ask for non-religious texts, or did those from whatever religion not write any of that stuff down?

Let's just say, what evidence outside of any religion do you have? I don't want anything about your spiritual journey, emotional appeals make no difference to me when asking for evidence of something. If you want to convince me to donate to some charity then yes, pile it on. But otherwise I don't see the point in the majority of what you just posted. I don't mean to be rude, but religious people always do that whenever evidence is asked for.

Ruthie24 · May 2, 2014

Syd the Human said:
I did ask for non-religious texts, or did those from whatever religion not write any of that stuff down?

Let's just say, what evidence outside of any religion do you have? I don't want anything about your spiritual journey, emotional appeals make no difference to me when asking for evidence of something. If you want to convince me to donate to some charity then yes, pile it on. But otherwise I don't see the point in the majority of what you just posted. I don't mean to be rude, but religious people always do that whenever evidence is asked for.

First of all I'm not religious, I don't go to or belong to any church. There's a difference between a religious Christian, a religious spiritual Christian, and a spiritual one IMO. I don't prescribe to any church dogma. Second, I don't know what you are getting at with the charity bit, it's pretty lame. Third, yeah you are being rude, in fact the way you people come off is pretty pathetic in how you have a conversation with others. It's no wonder why Christians or other religions don't wanna engage with you on these threads. You guys just don't get it that that's not how you talk to people. Hello, McFly??? Fourth, if you recall I said I do have evidence and I don't know how to grapple with it all because there is so much. Fifth, I'm not gonna throw down any more evidentiary posts like I did before with Enoch as it was a huge waste of time. You have a mind, you have a computer. Google, YouTube, Amazon: nephilim and see what you find. I have lots of authors, texts, and topics that are tied into the nephilim and I'll give my reference list in one post as soon as I can. Am not gonna do your homework for you. I don't know if it's my age or coming out of grad school, but I don't have a lot of patience for intellectual laziness and dishonesty. If I tried to present anything debate wise or to back up my studies in my apa papers I would have failed and gotten my butt thrown out of grad school. You people suck hardcore with your lame comments and laughable "I don't have to present any evidence at all, you do the work for me cuz I'm too lazy and self righteous to open a book. And how dare you tell me to read or do research, don't you know I got my atheist talking points folder right here?" You know any professor would toss you outta class so fast you wouldn't be able to think straight. What a bunch of claptrap hogwash.

Oh, and an "agnostic female atheist with a 'the warlock' banner" is telling. And you're not religious? LOL. Yeah, right.

Chany · May 2, 2014

Ruthie24 said:
First of all I'm not religious, I don't go to or belong to any church. There's a difference between a religious Christian, a religious spiritual Christian, and a spiritual one IMO. I don't prescribe to any church dogma. Second, I don't know what you are getting at with the charity bit, it's pretty lame. Third, yeah you are being rude, in fact the way you people come off is pretty pathetic in how you have a conversation with others. It's no wonder why Christians or other religions don't wanna engage with you on these threads. You guys just don't get it that that's not how you talk to people. Hello, McFly??? Fourth, if you recall I said I do have evidence and I don't know how to grapple with it all because there is so much. Fifth, I'm not gonna throw down any more evidentiary posts like I did before with Enoch as it was a huge waste of time. You have a mind, you have a computer. Google, YouTube, Amazon: nephilim and see what you find. I have lots of authors, texts, and topics that are tied into the nephilim and I'll give my reference list in one post as soon as I can. Am not gonna do your homework for you. I don't know if it's my age or coming out of grad school, but I don't have a lot of patience for intellectual laziness and dishonesty. If I tried to present anything debate wise or to back up my studies in my apa papers I would have failed and gotten my butt thrown out of grad school. You people suck hardcore with your lame comments and laughable "I don't have to present any evidence at all, you do the work for me cuz I'm too lazy and self righteous to open a book. And how dare you tell me to read or do research, don't you know I got my atheist talking points folder right here?" You know any professor would toss you outta class so fast you wouldn't be able to think straight. What a bunch of claptrap hogwash.

Oh, and an "agnostic female atheist with a 'the warlock' banner" is telling. And you're not religious? LOL. Yeah, right.

So, ad hominems. Great.

Yes, when someone makes big claims about reality, it's expected for them to provide evidence. Any professor I know would laugh at you for the claims you make.

Keep in mind that we have been, in effect, suspending our disbelief with the story to prove a point about its immorality. We don't think the Bible is true; it holds no actual weight with us.

Simply answer my question with a yes or no answer:

Did God, at any point in time, kill a human being?

Ruthie24 · May 2, 2014

Chany said:
So, ad hominems. Great.

Yes, when someone makes big claims about reality, it's expected for them to provide evidence. Any professor I know would laugh at you for the claims you make.

Keep in mind that we have been, in effect, suspending our disbelief with the story to prove a point about its immorality. We don't think the Bible is true; it holds no actual weight with us.

Simply answer my question with a yes or no answer:

Did God, at any point in time, kill a human being?

And my answer to you is, I don't know, I'm not God, and I wasn't there. You're asking a really big question that I don't have the answers to 100%. When it comes to every group of biblical people, there's a whole line of history to what happened to them and why. I personally don't believe that God would kill innocent people. Free will does though. Could it be that some tribes used the God thing to justify killing? Idk, I wasn't there, I'm not a scholar and I've not researched every war etc in the Bible. The Bible is several thousands of years old. I'm not 100% confident it wasn't tampered with by political and religious authorities because of the glaring omissions of several books mentioned in the Bible.

I know that genocide has taken place in all religions and cultures of the world. I know that there is a large agenda at foot to manipulate the masses today from what I've discovered. All I can present is what I've found out. If you aren't willing to do any searching on your own, that's your choice, but don't expect me to present anymore evidence that you refuse to look at because it conflicts with your own firmly established worldview. It's not my job to prove to you that I'm right because I honestly don't know myself 100%, all I can go by is where the evidence leads me and try to connect the dots as best I can.

The thing is, none of you, not a single one has presented any evidence for your side of the debate, not one. The professors that I know ask for references if you are trying to state a case. There are pros and con's to every issue, but in this debate you aren't presenting anything, but somehow I'm supposed to be the one to present all the evidence, dig through all the texts and refs I have and do all the work. That's super lame and intellectually lazy. I really don't care what you believe. IMO you are 100% free to believe whatever you want. This is just what I personally believe, you don't have to nor do I expect you to believe anything I say or any evidence I present. Also don't expect me to believe anything you say or present especially when you aren't presenting anything but your personal opinions and talking points.

Syd the Human · May 2, 2014

Ruthie24 said:
First of all I'm not religious, I don't go to or belong to any church. There's a difference between a religious Christian, a religious spiritual Christian, and a spiritual one IMO. I don't prescribe to any church dogma. Second, I don't know what you are getting at with the charity bit, it's pretty lame. Third, yeah you are being rude, in fact the way you people come off is pretty pathetic in how you have a conversation with others. It's no wonder why Christians or other religions don't wanna engage with you on these threads. You guys just don't get it that that's not how you talk to people. Hello, McFly??? Fourth, if you recall I said I do have evidence and I don't know how to grapple with it all because there is so much. Fifth, I'm not gonna throw down any more evidentiary posts like I did before with Enoch as it was a huge waste of time. You have a mind, you have a computer. Google, YouTube, Amazon: nephilim and see what you find. I have lots of authors, texts, and topics that are tied into the nephilim and I'll give my reference list in one post as soon as I can. Am not gonna do your homework for you. I don't know if it's my age or coming out of grad school, but I don't have a lot of patience for intellectual laziness and dishonesty. If I tried to present anything debate wise or to back up my studies in my apa papers I would have failed and gotten my butt thrown out of grad school. You people suck hardcore with your lame comments and laughable "I don't have to present any evidence at all, you do the work for me cuz I'm too lazy and self righteous to open a book. And how dare you tell me to read or do research, don't you know I got my atheist talking points folder right here?" You know any professor would toss you outta class so fast you wouldn't be able to think straight. What a bunch of claptrap hogwash.

Oh, and an "agnostic female atheist with a 'the warlock' banner" is telling. And you're not religious? LOL. Yeah, right.

I think you overreacted to this.

1. I asked for non-religious texts and then you said your evidence was other religions having the same idea as those within the Enoch text. So I asked if you had any other evidence outside of a religion.

2. You were using emotion to try and make a point, and I was asking you not to do that. The only time a person should do that when trying to persuade someone is if they are trying to raise money for charity or something.

3. By "you people" I think you mean agnostics and atheists. I don't think that is true in my case. I have never insulted anyone, but I will admit I have gotten frustrated with people. I think the "meanest" thing I've done is using the doh smiley in one of my posts. And, we are talked to all of the time. So I don't see how you think people don't want to engage with us.

4. If there is so much describing some should not be too hard. I asked for evidence outside of religion and that's the main source I got from you.

5. I have not been lazy or dishonest. You were making some serious claims and I asked if you had any evidence to which you replied you did. Enoch was a religious text and I addressed the points that you made without insulting you at all. And really? I suck hardcore for not instantaneously believing everything that I hear? Am I supposed to believe in Krampus and the Loch Ness monster as well? Plenty of books have been written on them too. The amount that something has been written about does not make it true. And, being in college myself I don't think I would get kicked out. I've gotten an A on every single paper I've written. So I think I know how to do research.

6. I took that quiz when you click on one of those. I think I got warlock because I said if my home were to be broken into I would hide and set an ambush and because my greatest strength would be all of my arcane knowledge. I don't practice anything though. I think the banner is part of a RPG type thing. *Shrug*

Syd the Human · May 2, 2014

Ruthie24 said:
And my answer to you is, I don't know, I'm not God, and I wasn't there. You're asking a really big question that I don't have the answers to 100%. When it comes to every group of biblical people, there's a whole line of history to what happened to them and why. I personally don't believe that God would kill innocent people. Free will does though. Could it be that some tribes used the God thing to justify killing? Idk, I wasn't there, I'm not a scholar and I've not researched every war etc in the Bible. The Bible is several thousands of years old. I'm not 100% confident it wasn't tampered with by political and religious authorities because of the glaring omissions of several books mentioned in the Bible.

I know that genocide has taken place in all religions and cultures of the world. I know that there is a large agenda at foot to manipulate the masses today from what I've discovered. All I can present is what I've found out. If you aren't willing to do any searching on your own, that's your choice, but don't expect me to present anymore evidence that you refuse to look at because it conflicts with your own firmly established worldview. It's not my job to prove to you that I'm right because I honestly don't know myself 100%, all I can go by is where the evidence leads me and try to connect the dots as best I can.

The thing is, none of you, not a single one has presented any evidence for your side of the debate, not one. The professors that I know ask for references if you are trying to state a case. There are pros and con's to every issue, but in this debate you aren't presenting anything, but somehow I'm supposed to be the one to present all the evidence, dig through all the texts and refs I have and do all the work. That's super lame and intellectually lazy. I really don't care what you believe. IMO you are 100% free to believe whatever you want. This is just what I personally believe, you don't have to nor do I expect you to believe anything I say or any evidence I present. Also don't expect me to believe anything you say or present especially when you aren't presenting anything but your personal opinions and talking points.

We are discussing the morality of a situation. I could present you with this:

Mandy killed Billy. Is this moral?

You would not have to provide scholarly work to discuss whether this is moral or not. So why do we suddenly have to in order to discuss the morality of a religious text that plainly says that god had people commit genocide against other humans?

Ruthie24 · May 2, 2014

Syd the Human said:
We are discussing the morality of a situation. I could present you with this:

Mandy killed Billy. Is this moral?

You would not have to provide scholarly work to discuss whether this is moral or not. So why do we suddenly have to in order to discuss the morality of a religious text that plainly says that god had people commit genocide against other humans?

I can't make the determination whether it's moral because I don't know the context in which Mandy killed Billy. If Mandy killed Billy because he was trying to rape, beat, murder or broke into her house to cause her bodily harm, she had every right to kill him. If Mandy 'murdered' Billy by poisoning him with radiator fluid to collect on the insurance policy, that's immoral. There's a big difference between murder and killing.

When it comes to the Bible you are making claims about what occurred in it without doing the research (linguistics, history, authorship, what do the scholars say about it etc., how was it compiled etc). You are trying to apply a very simple statement to an extremely complicated document and it doesn't work that way. Therefore you have to dig into it to find out, "OK, what happened here? Let me see what I can find out."

Even when you ask is it moral that Mandy killed Billy, it's much more complicated than that simple statement, because you have what happened between them, what was the crime, their relationship, how did the crime unfold etc. It doesn't work out just to say is it moral that Mandy killed Billy.

Christians do not "own" morality

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