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Christians / Catholics

asherahSamaria

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I hope this is the right place for this question.

It seems to be a uniquely American issue this but why do some "Christians" not label Catholics also as Christians but make some distinction and label them as Catholics. After all, all the denominations profess to be followers of Christ - hence the "Christian" label.

I've even seen comments to the effect that "they are not Christians", they're Catholics.

I know there is a prohibition in these threads about "you're not a real Christian" but this isn't about that - it's just about the labeling convention. Other countries don't seem to segregate the two to the same extent.
 

Albion

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I hope this is the right place for this question.

It seems to be a uniquely American issue this but why do some "Christians" not label Catholics also as Christians but make some distinction and label them as Catholics. After all, all the denominations profess to be followers of Christ - hence the "Christian" label.

I've even seen comments to the effect that "they are not Christians", they're Catholics.

I know there is a prohibition in these threads about "you're not a real Christian" but this isn't about that - it's just about the labeling convention. Other countries don't seem to segregate the two to the same extent.

It probably is particularly American, and America is a country with more Evangelical Protestants than most other countries. To them, a complete Christian, a Christian in the fullest sense of the word, believes in salvation by Faith (not Works), has a personal relationship with the Lord, and adheres to the Bible when it comes to doctrine. They doubt, rightly or wrongly, that this describes the members of some other churches even though they do believe in Christ.
 
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SkyWriting

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I hope this is the right place for this question.

It seems to be a uniquely American issue this but why do some "Christians" not label Catholics also as Christians but make some distinction and label them as Catholics. After all, all the denominations profess to be followers of Christ - hence the "Christian" label.

I've even seen comments to the effect that "they are not Christians", they're Catholics.

I know there is a prohibition in these threads about "you're not a real Christian" but this isn't about that - it's just about the labeling convention. Other countries don't seem to segregate the two to the same extent.

It is believed that those who are baptised as infants are not automatically "saved"
and so many do not hold God as their savior, but rely on the church to do the hard
work of having a saving faith.
 
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Soyeong

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Must we accept that everyone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian? For instance, WBC claim to be Christians, but most Christians would deny that. While people can have a variety of beliefs within Christianity, there is a point where we can look at two people and say that we do not think that they are following the same religion, but it is only God who knows our hearts, while we can only judge by outward appearances.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I hope this is the right place for this question.

It seems to be a uniquely American issue this but why do some "Christians" not label Catholics also as Christians but make some distinction and label them as Catholics. After all, all the denominations profess to be followers of Christ - hence the "Christian" label.

I've even seen comments to the effect that "they are not Christians", they're Catholics.

I know there is a prohibition in these threads about "you're not a real Christian" but this isn't about that - it's just about the labeling convention. Other countries don't seem to segregate the two to the same extent.

I'd offer there are a few ingredients in that recipe.

1) Historical antagonism between Roman Catholics and Protestants. Since the Reformation hostility has existed on both sides, Protestants of every stripe were labeled as heretics by Rome; whereas Protestant groups regarded Rome as having fallen astray. This in not a few instances actually erupted into actual violence, including wars between nations--the Wars of Religion, political rivalries that would continue to play out in the international stage. Protestant Dutch and Catholic Portuguese fighting and competing in Asia, one of the reasons that led to Christianity being illegal in Japan was that Dutch traders whose religious-political-econcomic rivalry with the Portuguese had the Dutch claiming the Jesuit missionaries were merely a vanguard of conquest--leading to the laws making Christianity illegal and Japan closing itself off from contact with most of the rest of the world for another couple hundred years. This animosity continued in the New World, here in the United States, and in the 19th century there existed a very powerful anti-Catholic sentiment in the country that often led to prejudice and discrimination against immigrants (in particular Irish and Italian immigrants).

While the Vatican II council officially and formally decreed that Protestants were not heretics but merely "separated brethren" and while many Protestants have likewise either formally or informally rejected anti-Catholic rhetoric, there are many hold-outs of anti-Catholic sentiment. Carry-over from a former era where Catholicism was to be feared, despised, and held as suspicious; as a pronounced example of this just consider the religious tracts produced by Jack Chick/Chick Publications.

2) A very strong Evangelical culture that comprehends itself as "just Christian" and anything else as superfluous or else outside of Christianity. As someone who was raised in an Evangelical/Pentecostal environment a pronounced way of thinking that seeped through was an idea that we were "just Christians". Ours was what was normative, anything else was suspicious, and we were "just Christians" as opposed to Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, etc.

3) A general ignorance of what Christianity looks like outside of the very tiny microcosm of Evangelicalism. A common trend is the significant lack of understanding between various Christian groups; and generally the more culturally entrenched they are the more likely there is to not ever have to encounter persons of very different beliefs and positions. This isn't unique to Evangelicalism or to America, but in the case of America Evangelicalism is a very entrenched into the American psyche. The only knowledge one may have of other Christians, at best, may only come from what you hear people at your church say, and there's a distinct possibility that what you're hearing is just plain rubbish. Going back to my own experiences growing up, I had been taught that Catholics depict Jesus hanging on the cross (a crucifix as opposed to an empty or plain cross) because they don't believe He was raised from the dead but was still dead and on the cross somewhere. This is so obviously nonsense, but I've since heard it many times while participating on online discussions. So there remains simply a sheer and profound ignorance, and unless one is legitimately motivated to learn and move outside of their comfort zone they may never be properly educated on such simple things.

I'd say all three, or combinations of these three, are readily available for some to thus utilize in order to, wrongly and ignorantly, claim that Christians and Catholics are somehow distinct or different.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Albion

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Thanks for the responses - I think (?) it's mostly down to the works / belief differences.
I don't think that's it exactly. It's part of the picture, yes, but I'd say that it's broader than that.

It's more about the formalism of Catholicism--going through the paces of religious ceremonies and obligations as one's commitment to Christ...as opposed (in the Evangelicals' mind) to having the personal relationship with God that being "born again" is supposed to be all about, etc.
 
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Poor Beggar

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I hope this is the right place for this question.

It seems to be a uniquely American issue this but why do some "Christians" not label Catholics also as Christians but make some distinction and label them as Catholics. After all, all the denominations profess to be followers of Christ - hence the "Christian" label.

I've even seen comments to the effect that "they are not Christians", they're Catholics.

I know there is a prohibition in these threads about "you're not a real Christian" but this isn't about that - it's just about the labeling convention. Other countries don't seem to segregate the two to the same extent.
If they believe they are saved by faith in the sacrifice of Christ, they are Christian. All denominations are probably doing things wrong.
 
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Poor Beggar

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Must we accept that everyone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian? For instance, WBC claim to be Christians, but most Christians would deny that. While people can have a variety of beliefs within Christianity, there is a point where we can look at two people and say that we do not think that they are following the same religion, but it is only God who knows our hearts, while we can only judge by outward appearances.
WBC is hyper Calvinism.
 
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juvenissun

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I hope this is the right place for this question.

It seems to be a uniquely American issue this but why do some "Christians" not label Catholics also as Christians but make some distinction and label them as Catholics. After all, all the denominations profess to be followers of Christ - hence the "Christian" label.

I've even seen comments to the effect that "they are not Christians", they're Catholics.

I know there is a prohibition in these threads about "you're not a real Christian" but this isn't about that - it's just about the labeling convention. Other countries don't seem to segregate the two to the same extent.

Catholics believe in something which are wrong according to the Bible. Even their core believes are the same, but they add some controversial ideas into the doctrine, so the whole flavor is quite different. Without comparison, one might not feel it. With a comparison, the difference is quite clear and is serious.

The Bible mentioned Seven Churches in the Book of Revelation. I am not sure which one refers to the Catholic, but there is one for them. You may read that a church of long history may change. Sometimes, it changed too much that its course become seriously deviated from what it was.
 
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jayem

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WBC is hyper Calvinism.

I don't want to derail the thread, or risk closure by veering into apologetics. But I'll just state that Calvinism has a certain logical consistency. If God is the ultimate sovereign of the universe, then nothing can happen that isn't in accordance with his grand plan. Thus, who is saved, and who is not, must also be part of God's plan. Which leads to the logical conclusion that each individual's salvation--at a very fundamental level--is not completely his choice. One can only be saved if God has planned for it.
 
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juvenissun

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I don't want to derail the thread, or risk closure by veering into apologetics. But I'll just state that Calvinism has a certain logical consistency. If God is the ultimate sovereign of the universe, then nothing can happen that isn't in accordance with his grand plan. Thus, who is saved, and who is not, must also be part of God's plan. Which leads to the logical conclusion that each individual's salvation--at a very fundamental level--is not completely his choice. One can only be saved if God has planned for it.

However, the person does not know it from the beginning to the end. The person is still a full free person.
So, it is God's plane. So what?
 
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ViaCrucis

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I don't want to derail the thread, or risk closure by veering into apologetics. But I'll just state that Calvinism has a certain logical consistency. If God is the ultimate sovereign of the universe, then nothing can happen that isn't in accordance with his grand plan. Thus, who is saved, and who is not, must also be part of God's plan. Which leads to the logical conclusion that each individual's salvation--at a very fundamental level--is not completely his choice. One can only be saved if God has planned for it.

That pretty accurately describes Five Point Calvinism, the five points often known as TULIP:

Total depravity (or total inability)
Unconditional election
Limited atonement
Irresistible grace
Perseverance of the saints.

Total depravity or total inability refers to the fact that the entire human creature is powerless in their sin to come to God. Unconditional election means God's election is not based on anything anyone does, but is based solely on His sovereign discretion. Limited atonement means that Christ's death was efficiently given only for the elect. Irresistable grace means that whosoever has been chosen by God to be saved is unable to resist it but will, indeed, believe. Perseverance of the saints means that the elect cannot by any means fall away.

These five points were drawn up in opposition to the Five Articles of Remonstrance by the followers of Jacob Arminius (i.e. Arminianism) at the Synod of Dordrecht in the early 17th century.

In modern times Reformed (i.e. Calvinist) theologians are not exactly in perfect agreement on their interpretation and understanding of Reformed theology. As it's possible to find all manner of Calvinists who are not all in agreement, including forms of Calvinism such as Hyper-Calvinism and Neo-Calvinism. Hyper-Calvinism is somewhat hard to define, as it's been defined in different ways over the years and is generally seen by more mainstream Calvinists as a Calvinism going beyond itself, whereas Neo-Calvinism is a more well defined system largely going back to Abraham Kuyper; Kuyper's influence is actually pretty widespread in the modern Evangelical/Fundamentalist world; a prime example would be Kuyper's influence on R. J. Rushdoony and his Christian Reconstructionism and views on Theonomy which are foundational to the modern Religious Right, Moral Majority, and the doctrines of Dominionism and Christian Triumphalism. Namely through Francis Schaeffer, and Schaeffer's influence on many today such as James Dobson (from Focus on the Family), Pat Robertson, and so many more. Rushdoony's form of Neo-Calvinism as spun through Christian Reconstructionism and the teachings of Francis Schaeffer is the keystone of the modern religious right in the United States and elsewhere in which it has been transplanted.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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jayem

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However, the person does not know it from the beginning to the end. The person is still a full free person.
So, it is God's plane. So what?

But is he really free to choose? If it's God's intention that he become a believer, isn't it possible that God is directing his will? He may think he's coming to Christ on his own volition, but it's really God's doing. God has commandeered personal decisions before. Doesn't Exodus say God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he refused to release the Hebrews?
 
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GrowingSmaller

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I don't think that's it exactly. It's part of the picture, yes, but I'd say that it's broader than that.

It's more about the formalism of Catholicism--going through the paces of religious ceremonies and obligations as one's commitment to Christ...as opposed (in the Evangelicals' mind) to having the personal relationship with God that being "born again" is supposed to be all about, etc.
Thety re both wrong then IMO. Religion should be about helping society function, not glam.
 
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juvenissun

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But is he really free to choose? If it's God's intention that he become a believer, isn't it possible that God is directing his will? He may think he's coming to Christ on his own volition, but it's really God's doing. God has commandeered personal decisions before. Doesn't Exodus say God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he refused to release the Hebrews?

Are we trying to compete with God? This idea or intention is not LOGICAL.

We exercise out freedom within our sense. That is it. Even our exercise is within God's power or control, SO WHAT? I am free just below the all mighty God. Would that be good enough? Do you really want to BE God?

Your argument may be valid to a religion of polytheism. But it is not a valid one in Christianity.
 
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Albion

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Thety re both wrong then IMO. Religion should be about helping society function, not glam.

That's one opinion. However, it doesn't address the question--WHY do some Christians talk as though there's a difference between "Catholic" and "Christian?"

does it?
 
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Cearbhall

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It seems to be a uniquely American issue this but why do some "Christians" not label Catholics also as Christians but make some distinction and label them as Catholics.
I don't know. I wouldn't even be aware of this if it weren't for the Internet. From a historical perspective, it seems rather backwards.
 
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Crowns&Laurels

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I hope this is the right place for this question.
It seems to be a uniquely American issue this but why do some "Christians" not label Catholics also as Christians but make some distinction and label them as Catholics. After all, all the denominations profess to be followers of Christ - hence the "Christian" label.

I've even seen comments to the effect that "they are not Christians", they're Catholics.

I know there is a prohibition in these threads about "you're not a real Christian" but this isn't about that - it's just about the labeling convention. Other countries don't seem to segregate the two to the same extent.


Christian:
a person who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ


Catholic:
of, relating to, or forming the ancient undivided Christian church or a church claiming historical continuity from it

Protestant:
a member of a Western Christian church whose faith and practice are founded on the principles of the Reformation, especially in the acceptance of the Bible as the sole source of revelation, in justification by faith alone, and in the universal priesthood of all the believers.


The Reformation began in the late 14th and into the 1500's when Martin Luther challenged the Catholic Church on activities and doctrines he disagreed with. This gave rise to a mass protestant rebellion whose churches live on today. It's the largest western schism to have ever occur in Christian history and that is why it is still prevalent today.
As such, you may find some not referring to one another as truly Christian, though that's not nearly as popular as it used to be. Now, it's mostly just doctrinal war.
 
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