Christians and sin

[STEVO_IN_CHRIST]

Hi there everybody, my name is Stephen and I'm new to this forum.

I wanted to ask a question regarding Christians and sin. Today I watched a teacher online discuss that without repentance, no one is saved - which I totally agree with and consider absolutely Biblical. However, he then went onto how santification is not perfectionism and how believers react to sin differently; which began to puzzle me a tad.

To quote him exactly, he said: "Christians still sin but they don't ...plot it, plan it, strategise it..."

This is where I got confused because, doesn't sin ultimately involve all 3 of those? Perhaps an illustration will help communicate what I mean - if he's speaking in the sense that a Christian doesn't wake-up everyday and decide "I'm going to sin today" and then go onto laying out his numerous sinful activities; then I understand and am inclined to agree with him. But when a Christian finds himself in a moment of temptation, isn't he/she then presented with the choice to plan, plot , strategise or to turn away? Isn't all sin ultimately willful and deliberate, regardless of whether it's followed by repentance or whether one is aware they've commited sin? I think King David would be a notable and Biblical example to consider.

I'd appreciate some clarification. Cheers guys and may God bless.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

Sin only has meaning if it is in the context of will-ing. Apart from will-ing, there is no sin, only phenomena.

Consider the words of James:

Don’t let anyone under pressure to give in to evil say, “God is trying to trip me up.” God is impervious to evil, and puts evil in no one’s way. The temptation to give in to evil comes from us and only us. We have no one to blame but the leering, seducing flare-up of our own lust. Lust gets pregnant, and has a baby: sin! Sin grows up to adulthood, and becomes a real killer. (1:13-15)

 

[EmSw]

Sin only has meaning if it is in the context of will-ing. Apart from will-ing, there is no sin, only phenomena.

Consider the words of James:

Don’t let anyone under pressure to give in to evil say, “God is trying to trip me up.” God is impervious to evil, and puts evil in no one’s way. The temptation to give in to evil comes from us and only us. We have no one to blame but the leering, seducing flare-up of our own lust. Lust gets pregnant, and has a baby: sin! Sin grows up to adulthood, and becomes a real killer. (1:13-15)

The passage from James says sin comes from temptations and to satisfy our own lusts. Each one of us is tempted and drawn away by our own desires (not Adam's). We do not inherit any sin from Adam, but rather, when our desires are conceived, it is this which gives birth to sin.

 

[Soyeong]

Leviticus 4:2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If anyone sins unintentionally in any of the Lord's commandments about things not to be done, and does any one of them,

Sin offerings were for unintentional sin, transgressions are intentional sins, and iniquity is premeditated sin.

Psalms 32:5 I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,” and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah

 

[sdowney717]

In the OT, specifically anyone intentionally sinning was to be cut off from the people of God.
The example of violation of the sabbath laws was death by stoning. Sin has a dear cost to the person committing the sin.

Numbers 15
Laws Concerning Unintentional Sin
22 ‘If you sin unintentionally, and do not observe all these commandments which the Lord has spoken to Moses— 23 all that the Lord has commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day the Lord gave commandment and onward throughout your generations— 24 then it will be, if it is unintentionally committed, without the knowledge of the congregation, that the whole congregation shall offer one young bull as a burnt offering, as a sweet aroma to the Lord, with its grain offering and its drink offering, according to the ordinance, and one kid of the goats as a sin offering. 25 So the priest shall make atonement for the whole congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them, for it was unintentional; they shall bring their offering, an offering made by fire to the Lord, and their sin offering before the Lord, for their unintended sin. 26 It shall be forgiven the whole congregation of the children of Israel and the stranger who dwells among them, because all the people did it unintentionally.

27 ‘And if a person sins unintentionally, then he shall bring a female goat in its first year as a sin offering. 28 So the priest shall make atonement for the person who sins unintentionally, when he sins unintentionally before the Lord, to make atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. 29 You shall have one law for him who sins unintentionally, for him who is native-born among the children of Israel and for the stranger who dwells among them.

Law Concerning Presumptuous Sin
30 ‘But the person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the Lord, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the Lord, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.’”

Penalty for Violating the Sabbath
32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.

35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

 

[fhansen]

The church has always based culpability for sin on knowledge and deliberate consent. Knowing that it's wrong and deliberately doing it anyway

 

[sdowney717]

Unintentional sinning was still sin and required a sacrifice. The person was still guilty of sinning against the Lord, even though ignorant of their sins, God holds them all accountable.

 

[sdowney717]

Romans 3
All Have Sinned
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law isthe knowledge of sin.

 

[fhansen]

Unintentional sinning was still sin and required a sacrifice. The person was still guilty of sinning against the Lord, even though ignorant of their sins, God holds them all accountable.

And yet the OP's quote concerned a difference for Christians now exclusively-as if they never sin deliberately.

 

[sdowney717]

And yet the OP's quote concerned a difference for Christians now exclusively-as if they never sin deliberately.

I could go as far as saying that all wilful sins are sins unto death, physical death, just like Apostle John says and also Paul of those who treated their brothers disrespectfully not honoring the Lord regarding the Lord's supper, they did not recognize Christ in them, so some were sickly and some had died, still though in the Lord. Just as it says, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of the righteousness of Christ.
We all will physically die wont we. Adam's sin brought about this death, including the body, dieing you shall die. BUT in Christ all shall be made alive. (that is those in Christ)

that law of God regarding sin and our physically dieing has not yet been revoked. Someday it will though.

 

[fhansen]

I could go as far as saying that all wilful sins are sins unto death, physical death, just like Apostle John says and also Paul of those who treated their brothers disrespectfully not honoring the Lord regarding the Lord's supper, they did not recognize Christ in them, so some were sickly and some had died, still though in the Lord. Just as it says, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of the righteousness of Christ.
We all will physically die wont we. Adam's sin brought about this death, including the body, dieing you shall die. BUT in Christ all shall be made alive. (that is those in Christ)

that law of God regarding sin and our physically dieing has not yet been revoked. Someday it will though.

Yes, someday both sin and physical death will be completely done away with. Sin will never be allowed in the end.

 

[Mister_Al]

A Christian is freed from the Condemnation of sin. If he sins he can ask God to forgive him and He will.

Alan

 

[STEVO_IN_CHRIST]

Thanks guys, I think you've all answered my question.

Yeah, I certainly recognise all sin, deliberate or unintentional; needs a sacrifice for (praise be to Christ!). It was just the terminology of the video I watched that puzzled me, it appeared to me that he was almost saying a born-again is incapable of purposely sinning; but I think that was merely a misunderstanding on my part.

 

[fhansen]

Thanks guys, I think you've all answered my question.

Yeah, I certainly recognise all sin, deliberate or unintentional; needs a sacrifice for (praise be to Christ!). It was just the terminology of the video I watched that puzzled me, it appeared to me that he was almost saying a born-again is incapable of purposely sinning; but I think that was merely a misunderstanding on my part.

Well, ya never know. There're certainly a wide variety of theologies floating around.

 

[STEVO_IN_CHRIST]

Well, if you wanna see the vid for yourself; here it is:

I trust the majority of you are familiar with Todd Friel and Wretched?

 

[fhansen]

He's a bit off on those concepts IMO, confident as he comes off. We all continue to struggle with sin. And sin is always opposed to God's will. It's an act against love of and even faith in Him. The difference is that the struggle becomes more pronounced or intense in Christians-because our consciences are better informed; we know we're doing wrong, offending God.

 

[sdowney717]

Our sins are forgiven us, this is the New Covenant we live in today.

Their Spiritual State
12 I write to you, little children,
Because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.
13 I write to you, fathers,
Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
Because you have overcome the wicked one.
I write to you, little children,
Because you have known the Father.
14 I have written to you, fathers,
Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
I have written to you, young men,
Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
And you have overcome the wicked one.

Do Not Love the World
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

Deceptions of the Last Hour
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

[fhansen]

Do Not Love the World
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

And I think this is the point. To sin is simply to continue to be in love with the world-and is at odds with this statement:
"Christians still sin but they don't ...plot it, plan it, strategise it..."

And to say that sanctification is not related to becoming perfect is to emaciate sanctification from being...anything, really.

 

[Steeno7]

Hi there everybody, my name is Stephen and I'm new to this forum.

I wanted to ask a question regarding Christians and sin. Today I watched a teacher online discuss that without repentance, no one is saved - which I totally agree with and consider absolutely Biblical. However, he then went onto how santification is not perfectionism and how believers react to sin differently; which began to puzzle me a tad.

To quote him exactly, he said: "Christians still sin but they don't ...plot it, plan it, strategise it..."

This is where I got confused because, doesn't sin ultimately involve all 3 of those? Perhaps an illustration will help communicate what I mean - if he's speaking in the sense that a Christian doesn't wake-up everyday and decide "I'm going to sin today" and then go onto laying out his numerous sinful activities; then I understand and am inclined to agree with him. But when a Christian finds himself in a moment of temptation, isn't he/she then presented with the choice to plan, plot , strategise or to turn away? Isn't all sin ultimately willful and deliberate, regardless of whether it's followed by repentance or whether one is aware they've commited sin? I think King David would be a notable and Biblical example to consider.

I'd appreciate some clarification. Cheers guys and may God bless.

Sin is sin, and all sin is willful sin. Sins never just sneak up on a person and catch them by surprise. Even reactionary sins are willful.

 

[bling]

Sin is sin, and all sin is willful sin. Sins never just sneak up on a person and catch them by surprise. Even reactionary sins are willful.

The OT made a strong distinction between intentional and unintentional sins.