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Christians and segregation...

Byfaithalone1

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Despite the fact that its 2010, in many christian churches, services which are conducted every weekend remain voluntarily segregated by color... What is wrong with this picture? What is the rationale that the SDA church uses to continue this practice?

In my area of the world, this seems to be an outgrowth (sadly) of the segregation of neighborhoods. Churches spring up from the neighborhoods around them. If the residents of those neighborhoods aren't diverse, then the congregations generally aren't diverse either.

Let me say that a bit differently. I'm not sure that the church I attend is interested in restricting diversity, but they aren't doing a great job of enticing folks outside of the local community (which also is not diverse).

BFA
 
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Joe67

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In my area of the world, this seems to be an outgrowth (sadly) of the segregation of neighborhoods. Churches spring up from the neighborhoods around them. If the residents of those neighborhoods aren't diverse, then the congregations generally aren't diverse either.

Let me say that a bit differently. I'm not sure that the church I attend is interested in restricting diversity, but they aren't doing a great job of enticing folks outside of the local community (which also is not diverse).

BFA

Gen 12:1-5
1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.
KJV

Gen 15:1
1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
KJV

Gen 15:5-6
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
KJV

First, the command to leave and to go where he would be shown. Abram obeyed the voice command.

Then the communication in a vision and voice, then Abram believed in the Lord and it was counted to him for righteousness.

Abram was living among strangers at the time of the vision and voice. Integration had occurred through the command and direction of the voice of the Lord.

This was Abram's sabbath from his fleshly confidence. He feared for his life among this roving tribes.

Joe
 
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AzA

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Despite the fact that its 2010, in many christian churches, services which are conducted every weekend remain voluntarily segregated by color... What is wrong with this picture? What is the rationale that the SDA church uses to continue this practice?
When I get to heaven I'm gonna live in the white neighborhood.
 
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Joe67

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1 John 5:14-17
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. KJV

This is the question that comes to us whether segregation is a sin not unto death or a sin unto death.

Is segregation unrighteousness? Those who are born of God, do they segregate by social community and/or worship? Do they assemble with their friends, who they trust, or their enemies, who they fear?

Babes must need remain at home, where they are loved by their parents, until the time appointed of the Father. "Here am I, send me."

Remember Abram and his calling and fears and faith and hope while being against hope.

Joe
 
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AzA

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The administration has consistently deferred deciding on whether or not to dismantle its duplicate conferences. So the conferences persist.

Below that level debate continues on either side. There were columns on this in the Review in the last two years, some of which neatly coincided with union-level election cycles.

Separate conferences emerged in the US in the 1940s after several years' lobbying.
 
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Joe67

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Sunday morning has been and continues to be the most segregated time of the week.
Mobiosity,

Are you familiar with nationwide practices here in the U.S.? I am not. It seems that church would be more segregated than business activities.

It is my understanding that the owning of slaves was a dividing point between John Wesley and George Whitfield.

Joe
 
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Auburn88

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Despite the fact that its 2010, in many christian churches, services which are conducted every weekend remain voluntarily segregated by color...

And what would you like for us to do? Go out into the street and kidnap black people at gunpoint and drag them into our church?

The door is open. Anyone who wants to visit can visit and anyone who meets the Biblical criteria for church membership can apply for membership, be they black, white, or whatever.

I attribute the fact that we only have a handful of black members in our church to the fact that (a) there are so few black people in our area to draw from in the first place and (b) black people, like everyone else, tend to go to churches they're most familiar with. Because our style of worship and preaching is not something that most black people are familiar with, I would imagine that we wouldn't exactly be first on their list.

But it certainly isn't because they're not welcome or that we don't want them.
 
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Byfaithalone1

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MOBIOSITY: Sunday morning has been and continues to be the most segregated time of the week.

Perhaps. In this thread, I think we're exploring segregation both on Saturday and on Sunday. I suspect it happens on both days.

AUBURN: And what would you like for us to do? Go out into the street and kidnap black people at gunpoint and drag them into our church?

No, but perhaps a helpful first step would be to eliminate a denominational structure that includes separate conferences for black and white members.

AUBURN: I attribute the fact that we only have a handful of black members in our church to the fact that (a) there are so few black people in our area to draw from in the first place and (b) black people, like everyone else, tend to go to churches they're most familiar with.

I agree that there is a larger problem in which segregation permeates our communities and the way that we interact with one another. I am certainly open to exploring ways to address this larger problem, understanding that I may only be able to positively impact the situation one person at a time.

GENERAL QUESTION: I'd imagine that there are non-SDA denominations that have white and black conferences. Does anyone know anything specific on this?

BFA
 
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StormyOne

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And what would you like for us to do? Go out into the street and kidnap black people at gunpoint and drag them into our church?
Is that what you think needs to happen?

The door is open. Anyone who wants to visit can visit and anyone who meets the Biblical criteria for church membership can apply for membership, be they black, white, or whatever.
Is there a black sda church and a white sda church where you live? Do they do things together? What would happen if both churches were merged into one church?

I attribute the fact that we only have a handful of black members in our church to the fact that (a) there are so few black people in our area to draw from in the first place and (b) black people, like everyone else, tend to go to churches they're most familiar with. Because our style of worship and preaching is not something that most black people are familiar with, I would imagine that we wouldn't exactly be first on their list.

But it certainly isn't because they're not welcome or that we don't want them.

So we remain separate because of style of worship? Hmmmm
 
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AzA

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GENERAL QUESTION: I'd imagine that there are non-SDA denominations that have white and black conferences. Does anyone know anything specific on this?
The Southern Baptist Convention split from the northern conferences over slavery and international ministry.
The northern conferences then became the ABC, the American Baptist Convention, and the ABC remains more progressive than the SBC on most social issues you might be able to think of now.

In the North, Black Baptists split from white administrations to form the AME and AME Zion groups. In the South, Black Baptists formed the National Baptist Convention.

It is rare that you have intra-denominational structural segregation. What usually happens is that segregation means a complete schism.

But then again, other denominations tend not to be as hierarchically controlled as Adventism is, especially if they're congregational groups. And there are doctrinal-historical reasons an Adventist group would be reluctant to seek denominational independence.
 
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Auburn88

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Is that what you think needs to happen?

I don't think anything "needs" to happen. I think you just need to leave your doors open to everyone and if black people want to come, they'll come. If they don't, they won't. But I think it's wrong to criticize churches for not having enough black people, when it's the black people who are making the decision not to come.

Plus, why is it that whenever anybody trots out that idiotic "Sunday morning is the most segregated time in America" quote, they're always talking about how awful white people are because black people choose not to come to our churches, but never bother to ask what black people are doing to attract us to their churches?

So we remain separate because of style of worship? Hmmmm

That's one reason, yes.
 
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AzA

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I don't think anything "needs" to happen. I think you just need to leave your doors open to everyone and if black people want to come, they'll come. If they don't, they won't. But I think it's wrong to criticize churches for not having enough black people, when it's the black people who are making the decision not to come.

Plus, why is it that whenever anybody trots out that idiotic "Sunday morning is the most segregated time in America" quote, they're always talking about how awful white people are because black people choose not to come to our churches, but never bother to ask what black people are doing to attract us to their churches?
This is so interesting.
It's almost like you're responding to another conversation.

I didn't see any criticism of churches for "not having enough black people" in this thread. Or any "how awful white people are."

What assumptions have you been making so far? Perhaps we can deal with those.
 
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StormyOne

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I don't think anything "needs" to happen. I think you just need to leave your doors open to everyone and if black people want to come, they'll come. If they don't, they won't. But I think it's wrong to criticize churches for not having enough black people, when it's the black people who are making the decision not to come.

Plus, why is it that whenever anybody trots out that idiotic "Sunday morning is the most segregated time in America" quote, they're always talking about how awful white people are because black people choose not to come to our churches, but never bother to ask what black people are doing to attract us to their churches?



That's one reason, yes.
Perhaps you can share why the anger? Cause that's the vibe I'm feelin.... The reality is that there are several letters Paul wrote to folks who were voluntarily dividing themselves and he told them that their divisions were wrong.... Likewise in John, Jesus prays that his followers be one... lastly there was the event where the black pentecostal and white pentecostal churches united... I'll find that link and post it...
 
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StormyOne

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Here is an example of what could happen.....

When the delegates arrived in Memphis on October 17, 1994, there was an electric air of expectation that something wonderful was about to happen. The conference theme was Pentecostal Partners: A Reconciliation Strategy for 21st Century Ministry. Over 3,000 persons attended the evening sessions in the Dixon-Meyers Hall of the Cook Convention Center in downtown Memphis. Everyone was aware of the racial strife in Memphis where Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated in 1968. Here, it was hoped, a great racial healing would take place. The night services reflected the tremendous work done by the local committee in the months before the gathering. Bishop Gilbert Patterson of the Temple of Deliverance Church of God in Christ, and Samuel Middlebrook, Pastor of the Raleigh Assembly of God in Memphis, co-chaired the committee. Although both men had pastored in the same city for 29 years, they had never met. The Memphis project brought them together.

The morning sessions were remarkable for the honesty and candor of the papers that were presented by a team of leading Pentecostal scholars. These included Dr. Cecil M. Robeck, Jr. of Fuller Theological Seminary and the Assemblies of God, Dr. Leonard Lovett of the Church of God in Christ, Dr. William Turner of Duke University and the United Holy Church, and Dr. Vinson Synan of Regent University and the Pentecostal Holiness Church. In these sessions, the sad history of separation, racism and neglect was laid bare before the 1,000 or more leaders assembled. These sometimes chilling confessions brought a stark sense of past injustice and the absolute need of repentance and reconciliation. The evening worship sessions were full of Pentecostal fire and fervor as Bishop Patterson, Billy Joe Daugherty and Jack Hayford preached rousing sermons to the receptive crowds.

The climactic moment, however, came in the scholar's session on the afternoon of October 18, after Bishop Blake tearfully told the delegates, Brothers and Sisters, I commit my love to you. There are problems down the road, but a strong commitment to love will overcome them all. Suddenly there was a sweeping move of the Holy Spirit over the entire assembly. A young black brother uttered a spirited message in tongues after which Jack Hayford hurried to the microphone to give the interpretation. He began by saying, For the Lord would speak to you this day, by the tongue, by the quickening of the Spirit, and he would say:

My sons and my daughters, look if you will from the heavenward side of things, and see where you have been ‚ two, separate streams, that is, streams as at flood tide. For I have poured out of my Spirit upon you and flooded you with grace in both your circles of gathering and fellowship. But as streams at flood tide, nonetheless, the waters have been muddied to some degree. Those of desperate thirst have come, nonetheless, for muddy water is better than none at all.

My sons and my daughters, if you will look and see that there are some not come to drink because of what they have seen. You have not been aware of it, for only heaven has seen those who would doubt what flowed in your midst, because of the waters muddied having been soiled by the clay of your humanness, not by your crudity, lucidity, or intentionality, but by the clay of your humanness the river has been made impure.

But look. Look, for I, by my Spirit, am flowing the two streams into one. And the two becoming one, if you can see from the heaven side of things, are being purified and not only is there a new purity coming in your midst, but there will be multitudes more who will gather at this one mighty river because they will see the purity of the reality of my love manifest in you. And so, know that as heaven observes and tells us what is taking place, there is reason for you to rejoice and prepare yourself for here shall be multitudes more than ever before come to this joint surging of my grace among you, says the Lord.

Immediately, a white pastor appeared in the wings of the backstage with a towel and basin of water. His name was Donald Evans, an Assemblies of God pastor from Tampa, Florida. When he explained that the Lord had called him to wash the feet of a black leader as a sign of repentance, he was given access to the platform. In a moment of tearful contrition, he washed the feet of Bishop Clemmons while begging forgiveness for the sins of the whites against their black brothers and sisters. A wave of weeping swept over the auditorium. Then, Bishop Blake approached Thomas Trask, General Superintendent of the Assemblies of God, and tearfully washed his feet as a sign of repentance for any animosity blacks had harbored against their white brothers and sisters. This was the climactic moment of the conference. Everyone sensed that this was the final seal of Holy Spirit approval from the heart of God over the proceedings. In an emotional speech the next day, Dr. Paul Walker of the Church of God (Cleveland, TN) called this event, ìthe Miracle in Memphis,î a name that struck and made headlines around the world.

That afternoon, the members of the old PFNA gathered for the final session of its history. In a very short session, a motion was carried to dissolve the old, all-white organization in favor of a new entity that would be birthed the next day. But more reconciliation was yet to come!
http://www.pccna.org/history.php The complete story is there....

They were also a church divided... but they allowed the Lord to guide them and unite them in spite of.....


google it... The Memphis Miracle... you'll be pleasantly surprised....
 
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Auburn88

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StormyOne said:
Perhaps you can share why the anger?

I don't believe they're really angry. I believe it's just manufactured "anger" for the sake of pushing a political agenda.

Cause that's the vibe I'm feelin.... The reality is that there are several letters Paul wrote to folks who were voluntarily dividing themselves and he told them that their divisions were wrong

We're not talking about divisions. We're talking about preferring one church over another or about it not being practical to attend a given church.
 
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