Christianity without Paul

[Extraneous]

religion
[ri-lij-uh n]
noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Are you saying you no longer have this set of beliefs? Jesus came to bring true religion.

James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

I agree with James. I always have. I just see it more clearly now.

 

[RDKirk]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Christianity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_privilege


Without Pauline theology, I think we would view OT Law very differently than we do today. I also think we wouldn't have such an issue with women in ministry. It's not that Paul's teachings are the problem, but our interpretations of them are.

It's true that women in ministry is an issue because of Paul. It's only because of Paul and his disciple Luke that we know there were women who were fully active in the ministry. Without Paul and his disciple Luke, there would be no question that women should not be active in the ministry.

 

[Soyeong]

Conclusion

The fact that Paul converted and became a Messianic believer in Yeshua proves nothing...........

We have seen that Paul has single handedly created a counterfeit Gentile religion. The doctrines of this false apostle Paul, have clearly given men license to ignore the Law of God thus preventing men from having their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life. In this way, Paul has become one of Satan's most effective tools.

2 Peter 3:15-17 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

Paul is difficult to understand, but it is only through twisting his words to their own destruction that people end up making the error that he supported lawlessness.

 

[RDKirk]

I tend to lean towards the thinking that Christianity would exist perhaps like Judaism does without Paul because Peter and the other apostles were not really actively evangelizing non Jews even though Peter did have a few outings with Gentiles he didn't feel a need to go outside of Israel to them and as far as we can see only Paul and his group went to the Gentiles in force.

If you look carefully at the early chapters of Acts, it's pretty clear that the Holy Spirit had to reach beyond the Hebraic Jews to get the gospel out of Jerusalem, even after Cornelius' clear display that the gospel was for everyone. It was the Hellenist Jews who did that heavy lifting: Deacons Stephen and Philip, the Hellenist believers of Antioch. Even Paul, a Hellenist himself, used first by God to scatter the Hellenist believers out of Jerusalem (notice that the apostles themselves did not leave the city even then) and then as the battering ram against the reactionary Hellenist Jews who would have stalled the spread of the gospel (such as those Hellenist reactionaries who accused Stephen).

That's why I tend to think that it was the reactionary Hellenists who were the thorn in Paul's flesh. He had been one of them, then turned against them, and they continued to torment him.

 

[Extraneous]

I think there are some within Christianity that do not view Paul as an inspired Apostle sent by God/Jesus. [Non-Christian Judaism and Islam both denounce him of course.].

There are a few threads on this topic if you and others are interested.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/those-who-denounce-paul.7773297/#post-64121318
Those who denounce Paul

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm

Introduction

Thus far, I have shown that Paul's concept of God's foreknowledge, and his doctrine of predestination not only do not exist in Yeshua's words or the Hebrew Scriptures, but there is much evidence to the contrary to be found in them. We might call this the DNA evidence against him (Doctrine Not Accurate). It is an important part of the case against him. But it is by no means all the evidence there is against his supposed authority. There is more than enough evidence to suggest that he was not even a true apostle of Yeshua... let alone the greatest apostle who ever lived as he is so often eulogized.


There are a number of historical facts, including things that both Yeshua and Paul said as recorded in the Bible,that leave us with some very compelling evidence against his apostleship being recognized in heaven.

There are several interesting facts surrounding this case that should be noted and kept in mind...........

Conclusion

The fact that Paul converted and became a Messianic believer in Yeshua proves nothing...........

We have seen that Paul has single handedly created a counterfeit Gentile religion. The doctrines of this false apostle Paul, have clearly given men license to ignore the Law of God thus preventing men from having their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life. In this way, Paul has become one of Satan's most effective tools.

It is long overdue that Paul be called to task on what he has done. Those of us who love the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, and Yeshua the Messiah must categorically reject the supposed authority of Paul and his doctrines as did the Ephesians whom Yeshua commended for doing so. If we truly love the God of Abraham, we will do as Abraham, and do as Yeshua commanded. God said He blessed Abraham;...............................................


.......................................................................

.

For Judaism and Islam to both denounce Paul makes perfect sense.

 

[RDKirk]

Jesus says take no thought for your life. Paul says to be anxious for nothing. Jesus says all the law is fulfilled in love, Paul says the same thing. Jesus recites all the ten commandments, except the Sabbath, and Paul does the same. Jesus teaches us the parable of the sower, Paul teaches us that we reap what we sow. Jesus says that God will give us food and clothing, Paul says to be content with food and clothing. Jesus says that obeying his words is like building your house on a solid foundation, Paul says that we should not trust in riches but instead lay a good foundation. Jesus says that if we keep his words that the spirit will teach us and comfort us. Paul says that if we keep Pauls commands that the God of peace will be with us. That makes sense seeing how Paul seems to teach the same things that Jesus teaches. It seems to me that Paul and Christ teach the same things and Paul was surely familiar with the teaching of Christ. While i dont understand everything Jesus and Paul teaches, i can see that they sound much alike to me. THey both teach me all that i need to know about living however, and all the same commands. even if i dont understand all their mysteries.

Most importantly, Paul is scholarly enough to figure out that the conundrum of Jesus' response to the Gentile woman is the bedrock of the gospel.

 

[Soyeong]

Uh oh.
Here we go with the Sabbath again. Messianics and SDAs favorite topic.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/is-not-honoring-the-sabbath-a-sin.7402803/
Is not honoring the sabbath a sin?



.

I'm not sure why you're linking to threads that are years out of date. The short of it is that the law is what gives us knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20), without the law we wouldn't even know what sin is (Romans 7:7), sin is lawlessness (1 John 3:4), and the law says to keep the Sabbath.

Yes brother. Exactly.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

The Spirit has the role of causing us to obey God's law, so it's not talking about obeying God or not obeying God, but about obeying God in the right way.

 

[RDKirk]

With respect to Judas please see my post #20 in this thread.

The only reference in Paul's writings to the birth of Jesus is:

Romans 1:3 "the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh".

The words "according to the flesh" I understand to mean "perfectly normal". Certainly no miraculous aspect is even remotely suggested. Mark makes no mention of the birth at all. The very first birth story occurs decades later in Matthew. Luke's birth story contradicts Matthew and John ignores it completely.

Did you miss Colossians 1 and Philippians 2:6?

 

[Extraneous]

I'm not sure why you're linking to threads that are years out of date. The short of it is that the law is what gives us knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20), without the law we wouldn't even know what sin is (Romans 7:7), sin is lawlessness (1 John 3:4), and the law says to keep the Sabbath.



Ezekiel 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

The Spirit has the role of causing us to obey God's law, so it's not talking about obeying God or not obeying God, but about obeying God in the right way.

The letter kills

 

[Soyeong]

The letter kills

Do you think that God commanded the law to Moses and the Israelites for the purpose of killing them?

 

[Extraneous]

Most importantly, Paul is scholarly enough to figure out that the conundrum of Jesus' response to the Gentile woman is the bedrock of the gospel.

I suppose so.

 

[RDKirk]

.

 

[Extraneous]

Do you think that God commanded the law to Moses and the Israelites for the purpose of killing them?

We must be born again.

 

[RDKirk]

Do you think that God commanded the law to Moses and the Israelites for the purpose of killing them?

It gave witness to the fact that they were already dead (which happened at the Fall), but it could not give life. It could only point out their deadness.

 

[Extraneous]

It gave witness to the fact that they were already dead (which happened at the Fall), but it could not give life. It could only point out their deadness.

The letter kills. Spirit gives life.

 

[Soyeong]

The letter kills. Spirit gives life.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

The Spirit has the role of causing us to obey God's law, so does the Spirit bring death too?

 

[Extraneous]

Ezekiel 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

The Spirit has the role of causing us to obey God's law, so does the Spirit bring death too?

Liberty in the spirit. Goodnight Soyeong

 

[Soyeong]

Liberty in the spirit. Goodnight Soyeong

Psalms 119:45 I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts.

God's law is a law of liberty and it is sin that, which is in transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage. God's law can also put us in bondage if it is perverted into legalism, but that is not how God intended it to be kept or how Jesus taught to obey it. Goodnight.

 

[Extraneous]

Psalms 119:45 I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts.

God's law is a law of liberty and it is sin that, which is in transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage. God's law can also put us in bondage if it is perverted into legalism, but that is not how God intended it to be kept or how Jesus taught to obey it. Goodnight.

Love fulfills the law. Goodnight.

 

[Soyeong]

Love fulfills the law. Goodnight.

Indeed, love is the essence of the law and it is all about how to love God and how to love your neighbor. But how should we go about loving God and our neighbor? Thankfully, God gave us many other commands to paint us a picture of what that looks like.