Yes, then I agree, the quote by Elder McConkie was referring to the Eternal Father, and so was the quote from 2 Nephi. However, this is not always the case, and that's something we all need to consider.
Today at 03:43 PM ksen said this in Post #38
Ok, but I reserve the right to explore that topic when it is appropriate.
How about this seeming contradiction in Mormon belief and the Bible?
Here is the relevant passage from D&C 130:22
This contradicts Jesus' clear teaching that the Father is Spirit in Jn 4:23-24.
The passage from John has Jesus saying that the Father is Spirit. The D&C says that the Father has flesh and bones, but the Holy Ghost does not because spirits do not have flesh and bones.
That's why I was just focusing on those quotes (which are rather clear in what they mean by "God").
Today at 03:33 PM Wrigley said this in Post #37
This is true. Because had he used traditional means he would have realized what he was translating. As you know, the papyrus wasn't the book of abraham, but it was a copy of the book of the dead. Why the Mormons insist on claiming this to be anything else is a good question.
And to Joe's lack of education. He could read and write. He had a great imagination, he had a gift at telling a story, and he had a habit of using those gifts to get money from people.
I give him credit for coming up with a story. That's all it is. Its not the Word.
But is this not the Word of God...why would God reveal in this way when he NEVER has before? There is no need....the first Christians were called Christians in Atitoch...the Bible...the Word of God says so. It is God's words...not mine. Why would any new revelation, from God I may add, imply differently?
That seems pulled up out of the air. Where in the Bible does God call Abraham the head of the church, or Paul, or Moses? He Doesn't - (if He does, please show me) However, Joseph Smith is called the head.....That is Jesus' role. Nobody in the Christian Church is the head besides Christ himself....I think this lines more up with scripture than the LDS statement.
Man's logic, yes.....our logic is created...God's is not. I will not place my God insode a box. As for beginning the topic of the Nature of God....it appears we started this a few threads back.
(D&C 130:3). 3 John 14:23The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a mans heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.
(appears to me Joseph Smith tried to re-write that verse - or re-clarify - However, being that 3John 14:23 is inspired from God - as even the LDS believe - why would God ask Joseph to 'clarify or re-write it'?)
James Talmage wrote a book called "Articles of Faith"
On the jacket cover of James Talmage's book it says, "For clarity, brevity, and forthrightness, there is no finer summary statement of the basic beliefs of Latter-day Saints than the Articles of Faith, which were written by the Prophet Joseph Smith....For more than eighty years this book has been a standard text for gospel students and teachers alike. The publication of the work preceded Elder Talmage's call to the apostleship" (Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah.1984.
The Publisher's Preface in the book says, "Articles of Faith is considered one of the classics in Latter-day Saint literature. It is the outgrowth of a series of lectures in theology give by Dr. James E. Talmage, commencing in October of 1893. At that time Dr. Talmage was serving as the president of the LDS College in Salt Lake City. The First Presidency of the Church invited Dr. Talmage to prepare a text for use in Church schools and religion classes...."On December 7, 1911, he was called as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, where he served faithfully until his death on July 27, 1933."
As page numbers are listed, I trust this information is true. What do you think?
for more information on this book http://www.carm.org/lds/quotes_talmage.htm, where I gathered this information.
Just to clarify - you said you agreed with the majority of the quotes I listed...including that God was once a man?
I also express my views that if God created our logic then He could easily make Himself understandable to us;
Read it. And I remain unconvinced.Today at 05:30 PM jodrey said this in Post #44
Since there's nothing specific in here I'll just ignore it; although, it may be useful for you to study up on the Papari, since you seem to not know much about it. There are not only points made by critics about it, but numerous counter-points as well to support its authenticity, and the problem of many critics is that they repeat information while ignoring the counter-points already made against their claims. I hope you are not falling into this category, Wrigley, for I'd hate to see one of your intelligence appear a fool. For this reason, please read up. I'll give you a good starting place (from there you can search for more information yourself):
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/abraham.htm
Today at 05:21 PM jodrey said this in Post #42
Sorry, but I fail to see the contradiction... But maybe that's just me.
Today at 10:18 PM ksen said this in Post #48
You do? Ok let me lay it out plain:
The Bible says in Jn 4 that God the Father is spirit.
The D&C says spirit does not have flesh and bones.
The D&C says that God the Father has flesh and bones.
Therefore the D&C says God the Father is not spirit.
So we have the Bible saying God the Father is Spirit and the D&C saying that God the Father is not spirit.
Do you still fail to see the contradiction?
Today at 06:16 PM HopeTheyDance said this in Post #46
youre going in circles jodrey.........basing everything on your own understanding.
I have to go as baby needs me and house is a mess...However, I will leave you with one thought, correcting a serious error you made is a previous
quote:
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor?
Psa 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
You are seriously mistaken if you think you can comprehend God.
I'LL comment on your other thoughts tomorrow - I will not be on tonight. NHL Playoffs begin tonight and ...well...I am Canadian.GO CANUCKS GO
Do you still fail to see the contradiction?
Read it. And I remain unconvinced.
As far as things getting out of hand, Jodrey, I think it's understandable how one thing leads to another. Discussions are often times like trees and branch off the legitimate trunk. A trunk without branches is quite a pathetic tree, and I feel that if we don't "branch off" enough to adequately discuss a particular aspect of the core discussion, we aren't going to get very far.
Yesterday at 10:18 PM ksen said this in Post #48
You do? Ok let me lay it out plain:
The Bible says in Jn 4 that God the Father is spirit.
The D&C says spirit does not have flesh and bones.
The D&C says that God the Father has flesh and bones.
Therefore the D&C says God the Father is not spirit.
So we have the Bible saying God the Father is Spirit and the D&C saying that God the Father is not spirit.
Do you still fail to see the contradiction?
You're missing a key element, though. Dictionary.com says that "is" and "has" have different meanings.
Today at 12:41 AM jodrey said this in Post #52
Lack of elaboration noted. Perhaps I could give you some more links to study:
http://www.fairlds.org/apol/morm201/m20109c.html
http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/LBOA.pdf
http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway....ion.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0
http://www.shields-research.org/Scriptures/BoM/BYUSAntn.html
Hmmm... There is more too, but since I doubt that you even read through the link I first posted (and its subsequent reference links, and their subsequent reference links) I will leave this to suffice. Come now. No mortal human can read that much documentation in a few hours, much less cross-reference, verify, and compare explanations. I don't know if anyone could do so and come to a conclusion in even days or weeks. I am not even considering the fact that you would then have to look for responses by critics to the responses by the apologists I referenced. Are you Superman or are you just not telling the absolute truth?
Besides the Internet there are numerous books written on the subject, by both LDS critics and LDS apologists. The subject of the validity of the Book of Abraham is extensive and quite complex. To say that you understand it beyond doubt is a great statement to make, and from the average person, LDS or other, most often a great exaggeration. Because of the coverage of the subject I would opt not to discuss it here, for I understand little of it myself; it's like the creation ex nihilo debate in this way: over my head.
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