Christianity (In a Nutshell)?

[public hermit]

You have complete Faith in your lack of Faith!

That line is a gem.

 

[BigV]

It's easy to miss the meaning when one thinks one knows already.

To get the real meaning you have to trust on some level He's got something to teach you.

To learn, you have to want to learn, as you read His words.

Jesus ignored washings hands. Not only did this ignore the Law of Moses, but it was not even a good idea! What can this practice teach us today? Do you not wash your hands before you eat? If you wash your hands and take baths, you know better than Jesus!

 

[Halbhh]

Confucius beat Him to this claim hundreds of years earlier. Got any others?


And yet, you failed to mention the one which actually counts...

Again, Confucius:

"Do not impose on others what you do not wish for yourself."

Maybe Confucius is the real deal, huh?

Nothing Jesus says in Matthew 7:12 goes above and beyond what was written prior. Got anything else?



Not so, but you sure like to repeat Matthew 7:12. Seems to 'work' for you in other categories too. Remember that this 'rule' was already around well before Jesus proposed His version. Nothing new.



Please see above



Well, as stated prior, name one topic Jesus introduced, which was not already in circulation somewhere? And if you can, compare that to the many things He didn't. Thus far, you've mentioned one topic, already addressed. Anything else?

And if You mean 'it's deadly' to not abide by Confucius' golden rule, which Jesus later re-purposed? Maybe so. I'll try my best...

A best way to live isn't an original creative invention, so that everyone else then later only copies their artwork.

Instead, a truth prexists all the millions of times it is found, realized, or learned.

It's already true before anyone articulates any version of it, and previous to that also preexists the sensing of it that millions had without putting it into wording.

 

[Halbhh]

Jesus ignored washings hands. Not only did this ignore the Law of Moses, but it was not even a good idea! What can this practice teach us today? Do you not wash your hands before you eat? If you wash your hands and take baths, you know better than Jesus!

As I said to you above, you'd have to try or be open to learn in order to have a chance to learn what the passage is saying.

 

[ViaCrucis]

[QUOTE="cvanwey, post: 74398421, member: 409550"I'm simply saying I doubt this said character exists. And since I don't believe He exists, how can I abide by John 3:16-18, or even John 14:6-7?[/QUOTE]

Then I fail to see the points you had raised in your OP.

Your not believing in Jesus isn't germane to questions of Christian theology.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Tell that to Jesus. If you do NOT belief He is the only path to heaven, according to Him, you possess the WRONG belief

Again, without belief in Him, you are wrong. Period.

You seem to be confusing the words of Jesus with a particular theological position. Jesus never said that holding to certain propositional beliefs earns one salvation.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but by Me" is a statement about His Person; not a statement about how to get to heaven by believing the right things.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BigV]

As I said to you above, you'd have to try or be open to learn in order to have a chance to learn what the passage is saying.

Yes, when faced with inconvenient facts, just remember to keep on learning, so the ultimate goal would be to interpret the text as anything other than what it says!

 

[cvanwey]

A best way to live isn't an original creative invention, so that everyone else then later only copies their artwork.

Instead, a truth prexists all the millions of times it is found, realized, or learned.

It's already true before anyone articulates any version of it, and previous to that also preexists the sensing of it that millions had without putting it into wording.

In post #177, you stated:

"So, we should expect that the great truths Christ said would have been said in some form, even if a less good form, a less perfect form.

For instance, the 'golden rule' --
Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.

But, He didn't stumble and give us a lesser form."

**************

I, like you, agree that truth is universal. However....

1. Your 'best' example does not surpass Confucius' prior rendition. Hence, your above claim is false.
2. As stated prior, Jesus appears to state nothing, which was not already well in circulation. Why is this important? Jesus is teaching nothing new. Nothing innovative. Just re-workings of other existing lines, philosophies, and doctrines; and also some claims that He is the 'Messiah.'

Well, if we are to gauge Him without the supernatural claims, what did Jesus bring to the table, that His forefathers did not?

If He is divine, surely He would have taught something (ahead) of such public's time. This would raise an eye brow or two. Being as you demonstrated thus far, your best example is a re-worked Confucius line. Who's line was every bit as good, prior to Jesus' addition.

Anything else?

 

[cvanwey]

You seem to be confusing the words of Jesus with a particular theological position. Jesus never said that holding to certain propositional beliefs earns one salvation.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but by Me" is a statement about His Person; not a statement about how to get to heaven by believing the right things.

-CryptoLutheran

According to Christian doctrine, you are either condemned, or you are saved:

- "whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

- "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned"

- "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved"

 

[Halbhh]

In post #177, you stated:

"So, we should expect that the great truths Christ said would have been said in some form, even if a less good form, a less perfect form.

For instance, the 'golden rule' --
Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.

But, He didn't stumble and give us a lesser form."

**************

I, like you, agree that truth is universal. However....

1. Your 'best' example does not surpass Confucius' prior rendition. Hence, your above claim is false.
2. As stated prior, Jesus appears to state nothing, which was not already well in circulation. Why is this important? Jesus is teaching nothing new. Nothing innovative. Just re-workings of other existing lines, philosophies, and doctrines; and also some claims that He is the 'Messiah.'

Well, if we are to gauge Him without the supernatural claims, what did Jesus bring to the table, that His forefathers did not?

If He is divine, surely He would have taught something (ahead) of such public's time. This would raise an eye brow or two. Being as you demonstrated thus far, your best example is a re-worked Confucius line. Who's line was every bit as good, prior to Jesus' addition.

Anything else?

You have trouble understanding things I write, and I wonder if you read carefully.

Again, the Golden rule in perfect form, as Christ stated it, and anyone else before also, is true, and it's therefore I'm thinking been found or realized over and over.

Over and over. Throughout history. Just over and over and over.

I'd expect at least thousands and my guess is more likely "millions" of times.

Are you suggesting I should now forget that, but imagine instead that Confucius enlightened us?

Let's look at your quote of Confucius:

"Again, Confucius:

"Do not impose on others what you do not wish for yourself."

Maybe Confucius is the real deal, huh?"

Well....um....(trying to be polite here...) I can't help but notice this is a great example of a less perfect instance.

It's just exactly one of those "Don't do to others as you'd not have them do to you" -- only 1/2 of the perfect rule.

BUT....still, I would expect that many have realized the perfect form throughout history. Even millions I think is possible. Millions.

Maybe not Confucius though....it seems, from your own quote. He didn't get there in that quote you gave.

Five centuries before Christ, Confucius set forth his own Golden Rule: "Do not impose on others what you do not wish for yourself."

1/2, and not more, of the full, perfect form. Only half way there.

But, still, I expect many have realized the perfect form in history. When you finally find one, nice that you are learning more! And you would then be confirming what I expect. Truths have to be found over and over and over, even though often imperfectly.

All of this is...a red herring for you. You are distracted into a mere argument. That's a mental cage you are putting yourself into.

The reason you should try to learn from Christ is because at the very minimum he understands far more than you or me.

That's humble.

Humble is under your volition -- it's a choice you can make.

 

[ViaCrucis]

According to Christian doctrine, you are either condemned, or you are saved:

- "whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

- "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned"

- "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved"

And I suspect that you are utilizing a particular theological perspective I don't share here.

You are likely taking these to mean "Accept certain theological propositions to get into heaven." Which, of course, isn't what these isolated bits of text say or mean.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[cvanwey]

And I suspect that you are utilizing a particular theological perspective I don't share here.

You are likely taking these to mean "Accept certain theological propositions to get into heaven." Which, of course, isn't what these isolated bits of text say or mean.

-CryptoLutheran

Of course not, because then you would have to admit, that 'Jesus is the only way, or you burn'

 

[ViaCrucis]

Of course not, because then you would have to admit, that 'Jesus is the only way, or you burn'

This may be shocking to you, but not every Christian is a fire-and-brimstone fundamentalist. Some of us actually take our religion seriously.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[cvanwey]

You have trouble understanding things I write, and I wonder if you read carefully.

Again, the Golden rule in perfect form, as Christ stated it, and anyone else before also, is true, and it's therefore I'm thinking been found or realized over and over.

Over and over. Throughout history. Just over and over and over.

I'd expect at least thousands and my guess is more likely "millions" of times.

Are you suggesting I should now forget that, but imagine instead that Confucius enlightened us?

Let's look at your quote of Confucius:

"Again, Confucius:

"Do not impose on others what you do not wish for yourself."

Maybe Confucius is the real deal, huh?"

Well....um....(trying to be polite here...) I can't help but notice this is a great example of a less perfect instance.

It's just exactly one of those "Don't do to others as you'd not have them do to you" -- only 1/2 of the perfect rule.

BUT....still, I would expect that many have realized the perfect form throughout history. Even millions I think is possible. Millions.

Maybe not Confucius though....it seems, from your own quote. He didn't get there in that quote you gave.

Five centuries before Christ, Confucius set forth his own Golden Rule: "Do not impose on others what you do not wish for yourself."

1/2, and not more, of the full, perfect form. Only half way there.

But, still, I expect many have realized the perfect form in history. When you finally find one, nice that you are learning more! And you would then be confirming what I expect. Truths have to be found over and over and over, even though often imperfectly.

All of this is...a red herring for you. You are distracted into a mere argument. That's a mental cage you are putting yourself into.

The reason you should try to learn from Christ is because at the very minimum he understands far more than you or me.

That's humble.

Humble is under your volition -- it's a choice you can make.

No, it's you whom is not picking up what I am laying down here.

Again, I get that there exists universal truth. Again, if we are to gauge Him without the supernatural claims, what did Jesus bring to the table, that His forefathers did not? Well, Matthew 7:12 is not more prolific than Confucius. Your claim is that Jesus' claim is somehow 'better.'

What is the '1/2' that is missing? And what Makes Jesus' better?

And once we resolve this claim, we can then move onto the many claims Jesus may have got wrong, if we are speaking about universal truths...

 

[cvanwey]

This may be shocking to you, but not every Christian is a fire-and-brimstone fundamentalist. Some of us actually take our religion seriously.

-CryptoLutheran

Oh, so are you now acknowledging those passages are there, and they are not disputed, as to what they suggest?

Are you also saying you instead choose to ignore certain passages from the Bible?

I didn't write these passages. It is up to the believer to determine which ones they 'choose' to ignore, hand wave away, other. Is this what you mean by 'seriously?'

 

[Halbhh]

No, it's you whom is not picking up what I am laying down here.

Again, I get that there exists universal truth. Again, if we are to gauge Him without the supernatural claims, what did Jesus bring to the table, that His forefathers did not? Well, Matthew 7:12 is not more prolific than Confucius. Your claim is that Jesus' claim is somehow 'better.'

What is the '1/2' that is missing? And what Makes Jesus' better?

And once we resolve this claim, we can then move onto the many claims Jesus may have got wrong, if we are speaking about universal truths...

Consider the 2 sides, 2 pieces:

"Don't do to others what you would not have others do to you."
(refrain from doing action)

"Do for others what you would have others do for you"
(take action, proactively do an action)

See how those 2 are different? I think you will easily.

Christ put them both into His form:

Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.

In order to "do to others what you would have them do to you", you also cannot do the opposite, as that doing things you'd not have other do to you disobeys the rule. So Christ's statement of the Golden Rule has both sides.

As I said above repetitively, I expect other people in history to some have also(!) from this perfect form. (at least some, and that could mean millions found it over time)
(But it seems not Confucius though. That's not important much, unless you make it important, as you were for a time above)

 

[ViaCrucis]

Oh, so are you now acknowledging those passages are there, and they are not disputed, as to what they suggest?

Never disregarded those passages, but as to the meaning you think they have--that is absolutely under dispute. You are operating from a fundamentalist's reading of these, a reading which is not shared by the vast majority of Christians. As the vast majority of Christians aren't fundamentalists.

Are you also saying you instead choose to ignore certain passages from the Bible?

Nope.

I didn't write these passages. It is up to the believer to determine which ones they 'choose' to ignore, hand wave away, other. Is this what you mean by 'seriously?'

By seriously I mean attempt to engage in honest exegesis of the texts, and to evaluate and think through things theologically. Rather than simply parrot things I heard once from some guy.

Did it ever occur to you to even bother to ask me about what I believe, or why? Or how I read the texts, and why? Do you actually care?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Sanoy]

No, it's you whom is not picking up what I am laying down here.

Point of Fact, you do have trouble following what people are saying to you.

*Asking for justification
*I give one.
*Where is the verse?
* I explain the justification
*Where is the verse?
*I say that I don't believe in Sola Scriptura
* Something about rationalising/bias.
*I say that Church has the authority.
*Complains that I gave a justification in the first place.

I have said this unambiguously 3x times now, this will be the fourth time.

I am not rewording it. This is the clam I am making..... I stated, for the 5th time now -

...After 7 exhausting exchanges.

Okay, my apologies @Sanoy. I read your post wrong!!!! MY BAD!!!!

I guess I need to slow my roll a bit huh?.?.?

Might as well add Halbhh and ViaCrucis to the list too.

A lot of the time you are in your own world, and not even reading what people say... for example how you are about to ignore everything I just said and bring in all this other stuff that has nothing to do with what I said, isn't what I said, but will be made into anything other than what it should be, which is - "I will try harder to understand my respondents and what they actually believe"

 

[cvanwey]

Point of Fact, you do have trouble following what people are saying to you.






...After 7 exhausting exchanges.

Might as well add Halbhh and ViaCrucis to the list too.

A lot of the time you are in your own world, and not even reading what people say... for example how you are about to ignore everything I just said and bring in all this other stuff that has nothing to do with what I said, isn't what I said, but will be made into anything other than what it should be, which is - "I will try harder to understand my respondents and what they actually believe"

Thanks for this @Sanoy Or is this really @2PhiloVoid 's ghost writer? Not quite sure anymore? Stay tuned, as I now know both of you will And again, if I'm apparently this inept, strange that either of you would waste your time here.... Anywho, keep watching.

 

[cvanwey]

Consider the 2 sides, 2 pieces:

"Don't do to others what you would not have others do to you."
(refrain from doing action)

"Do for others what you would have others do for you"
(take action, proactively do an action)

See how those 2 are different? I think you will easily.

Christ put them both into His form:

Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.

In order to "do to others what you would have them do to you", you also cannot do the opposite, as that doing things you'd not have other do to you disobeys the rule. So Christ's statement of the Golden Rule has both sides.

As I said above repetitively, I expect other people in history to some have also(!) from this perfect form. (at least some, and that could mean millions found it over time)
(But it seems not Confucius though. That's not important much, unless you make it important, as you were for a time above)

As I stated in both 188 and 194....

"Again, I get that there exists universal truth. Again, if we are to gauge Him without the supernatural claims, what did Jesus bring to the table, that His forefathers did not? Well, Matthew 7:12 is not more prolific than Confucius. Your claim is that Jesus' claim is somehow 'better.'

What is the '1/2' that is missing? And what Makes Jesus' better?

And once we resolve this claim, we can then move onto the many claims Jesus may have got wrong, if we are speaking about universal truths..."

- As already stated, yes, a universal truth is always true, meaning -regardless of who says it, and when.
- But removing Jesus' claims to divinity, what forward thinking concept(s) did Jesus bring to the table that might distinguish Him from teachers prior? If you ignore the supernatural claims, He's just another teacher, teaching things which make Him no better then the rest.
- You are attempting to squeeze a little too much out of 'His' version. They are virtually the same thing. Subtle nuances, subtle twists. I'm gonna have to agree to disagree with your rendition, that He somehow innovated the preexisting pronouncement.

- But again, even if He did, care to take a look at some of the things Jesus decides to chime in upon, which somehow today may never AGAIN be practiced, because we as a society think we humans are doing better? Because as I stated, more than one time, EVEN IF we can find one or two things, which it does not yet appear you have provided, you THEN have to reconcile the things in which He chimed in upon, which society will most likely again never adopt.

And as you stated, if something is true, it is always true, right?

Care to continue?