Christianity and the 2nd Commandment

[YouBetcha]

So, after several years of struggling with this simple concept, I have not yet found any insight. I am a new user to this Forum and would like to initiate some intelligent discourse on this topic. It's a question that has completely dissolved any credibility on the topic. I AM NOT TROLLING. This is really a call for discourse.

Perhaps you all can help. Here goes.

Background: Born Catholic, raised Catholic, this question has plagued me since my teens. It destroyed any and all chance of continuing with religion, and when approached by other religious folks who come to my door, this question always makes them question their faith. So much so, that I don't want to cause them unhappiness...that's not my goal. On the lighter side, I believe that people are free to do whatever makes the happy in life. If they want to believe in something and that makes them happy, then great.

All that aside, here is my argument and the problem I have with the belief in Jesus or any other Christian religion.

ARGUMENT: If you believe that the 10 Commandments is a divine document, then you have read the 2nd commandment and believe its intentions. In lay terms, we all know that the 2nd commandment addresses the requirement to worship no other god except the one true God. It makes no mention of SONS, DAUGHTERS, BROTHERS, SISTERS, PETS, or OBJECTS. There is one god and that's God. So, for all purposes, the interviewing and selection of a diety appropriate for worshiping is now CLOSED. THEREFORE, if you worship Jesus, or any other entity, you are defying the 2nd Commandment. In other words, worshiping Jesus is a sin.

Now, you will probably say "But you worship God through Jesus." Okay, standard reply. However, if you were going to create a sin to defy God, you would exactly use this approach. "Well, you get to God, through Jesus".

No. That's not what the 2nd Commandment says. It says NO OTHER GOD. No SONS, either.

THEREFORE, I say to you, and the reason I am writing for discourse today, that worshiping Jesus, or any other god, is a Cardinal Sin.

Anyway, thanks for reading. Like I said, not Trolling here...not looking to make people angry. It's just my problem with the whole Jesus thing.

Cheers.

 

[LinuxUser]

Jesus is the same God in the second commandment not someone separate, if you don't worship Christ you are breaking the second commandment. It is not worshiping God through Christ but worshiping Christ who is God

 

[YouBetcha]

Jesus is the same God in the second commandment not someone separate, if you don't worship Christ you are breaking the second commandment. It is not worshiping God through Christ but worshiping Christ who is God

The Old Testament and correct me if I'm wrong, was written hundreds of years before Jesus. HUNDREDS. How can you say that He was referring to Jesus. He wasn't even born yet. No, the timelines for that argument don't match up. Matter of fact, they're not even in the same ball park.

 

[LinuxUser]

Jesus is God, it is God who is the author of the Scriptures. You want to separate Jesus from God, but Jesus is God there is no separation. The whole of Scripture is about Christ

 

[YouBetcha]

Jesus is God, it is God who is the author of the Scriptures. You want to separate Jesus from God, but Jesus is God there is no separation. The whole of Scripture is about Christ

So, PROPHECIES aside, why is there no mention of Christ specifically? While the New Testament writes about prophecies interpreted and fulfilled by Jesus while referencing the Old Testament (Matt 1:22-23 cites Isa 7:14 as being fulfilled by Jesus being born of the virgin Mary for example), why would such a brutally important fact of "worshiping God through someone else" not be specifically mentioned in the first divine document?

Again, thanks for your reply. I am really trying to learn here. Your responses are appreciated.

 

[LinuxUser]

It's not worshiping God through someone else. One more time - Christ is God, period. To continue the discussion you must understand that one fact that Christ is the same God who inspired the OT not anything less. Many things are not directly given but alluded to in Scriptures, the whole OT is about the redemption plan through Christ who is God. Only God could fulfill all the prophecies in the OT perfectly which He did in the NT

 

[YouBetcha]

So, let's apply that to the OT. Genesis, 1:1.

It's your belief, and that of Christianity, that Jesus created the Heavens and the Earth?

How about Genesis 1:3, let's substitute the word God, for Jesus. And you're telling me this is correct.

" And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day."

TURNS INTO

" And Jesus said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 Jesus saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 Jesus called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day."

You're saying that this is correct then?

BTW, I'm on Ubuntu.

 

[LinuxUser]

Yes it is correct.

I dual boot with Ubuntu but I'm in Win 7 because I have Access homework

 

[YouBetcha]

Well, the good news so far is that I've finally got a solid answer to a question. The bad news is that I feel that the argument is weak. To say that Jesus created the Heavens and the Earth, hundreds of years before His birth (capitalizing "His" out of respect for the forum) with no supporting OT reference to that fact is a very, very weak rebuttal, in my opinion.

Certainly, if you were to poll 10 Christians and present that rebuttal you'd likely get a <20% agreement on that. That would an extremely unorthodox approach to that presented argument. Again, my opinion.

 

[LinuxUser]

Christ has always existed, He is the uncreated. God came in human form to earth but that does not mean that He became God then, He was always. It is a mystery one God three Persons - the Trinty

 

[YouBetcha]

Christ has always existed, He is the uncreated. God came in human form to earth but that does not mean that He became God then, He was always. It is a mystery one God three Persons - the Trinty

I see. So you're saying that Christ was always there, but unpresented, unexposed, "uncreated." Then, hundreds of years later, was finally revealed? Is that how I am supposed to interpret the role of Jesus as it relates to God?

Again, thanks for your replies. I know its a sensitive topic with deep-seated beliefs and I am trying to be as respectful as possible while getting my pieces answered.

 

[LinuxUser]

No, Christ was always there and revealed in the OT. In Genesis - Let us make man in our own image, with Abraham before He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, with the three guys in the fiery Furnace. Christ is there since He is God, He was there at the beginning, middle, and will be there at the end.

 

[woodpecker]

hi youbetcha, as Linux has been replying, you must understand the Trinity to know you are worshiping the same God after the New Covenant, that same God is Jesus,...Jesus makes the claim...John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

Jesus claimed many times that He is God in the flesh, Emanuel, only God can forgive sins, and Jesus did this many times, it is why the Pharisees wanted to kill him.

If you did a study on the Trinity, you would then find Jesus in the Old Testament.

Please, why you are researching the things of God, please pray and ask the Holy Spirit (which is also God) to give you knowledge and discernment for the truth.

God bless

 

[Clearly]

[FONT=&quot]Linuxuser[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and Woodpecker : [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]The Opening posts' underlying premise has to do with the poster Youbetcha&#8217;s personal interpretation of the second commandment and it's "intent".

Youbetcha said in the O.P. : &#8220;If you believe that the 10 Commandments is a divine document, then you have read the 2nd commandment and believe its intentions.&#8221;.

Youbetcha then offers his interpretation of the second commandments intent which he asks christians to justify.

[FONT=&quot]The second commandment to the Jews was (LXX): [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3[/FONT][FONT=&quot] There shalt not be to you other gods besides me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]&#927;&#965;&#954; &#949;&#963;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#953; &#963;&#959;&#953; &#952;&#949;&#959;&#953; &#949;&#964;&#949;&#961;&#959;&#953; &#960;&#955;&#949;&#957; &#949;&#956;&#959;&#965;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And the God of the old testament continues in verse four : [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4[/FONT][FONT=&quot] You shall not make for yourself an idol, not any representation as much as [is] the heaven upward, nor as much as [is] in the earth below, nor as much as [is] in the waters underneath the earth. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]&#927;&#965; &#960;&#959;&#953;&#951;&#963;&#949;&#953;&#962; &#963;&#949;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#959; &#949;&#953;&#948;&#969;&#955;&#959;&#957; &#959;&#965;&#948;&#949; &#960;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#959;&#962; &#959;&#956;&#959;&#953;&#969;&#956;&#945; &#959;&#963;&#945; &#949;&#957; &#964;&#969; &#959;&#965;&#961;&#945;&#957;&#969; &#945;&#957;&#959; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#959;&#963;&#945; &#949;&#957; &#964;&#949; &#947;&#949; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#969; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#959;&#963;&#945; &#949;&#957; &#964;&#959;&#953;&#962; &#965;&#948;&#945;&#963;&#953;&#957; &#965;&#960;&#959;&#954;&#945;&#964;&#969; &#964;&#949;&#962; &#947;&#949;&#962;.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]My question to linuxuser and woodpecker is whether[/FONT][FONT=&quot], upon considering the opening posts premise, you believe youbetchas&#8217; interpretation of the second commandments intent is correct or do you think his interpretation underlying his entire premise is incorrect?
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] If the premise is incorrect, then you will have to correct the underlying initial premise before the OP and discussion of it can make the clearest sense and have it's clearest application for the readers. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]



Clearly

 

[dana b]

Hi Youbetcha,

If you are following the Old Testament get circumsized and follow it throughly. But if you believe that Jesus Christ is the forecast Messiah then don't get circumsized and read the New Testament and believe in Jesus.

Jesus's Christians believe in every word in the New Testament first. If they want to study the history of religion then they can read the Old Testament. But if any confusion arises from the writting in the Old Testament for you, close it gently and only read Jesus's New Testament.

We Christians are following the "second covenant" brought to us by Christ. It is an advancement where we add compassion and mercy to the Law of Justice. That is why the main crime of Jesus according to the Old Testament followers was that he healed on the sabath.

You can't have it both ways or you will have the confusion that you now have.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The Trinity is God.

In the beginning the Trinity, God, created the heavens and the earth. That's Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

God--Father, Son and Holy Spirit--created all things, He is the God we are to worship. When Christians read the Second Commandment we recognize that God, Yahweh, is the Holy Trinity. That includes the Son, our Lord Jesus.

So yes, the God who spoke to Moses in the burning bush? The Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The God who gave the Torah to Moses on Mt. Sinai? The Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[dcyates]

So, after several years of struggling with this simple concept, I have not yet found any insight. I am a new user to this Forum and would like to initiate some intelligent discourse on this topic. It's a question that has completely dissolved any credibility on the topic. I AM NOT TROLLING. This is really a call for discourse.

Perhaps you all can help. Here goes.

Background: Born Catholic, raised Catholic, this question has plagued me since my teens. It destroyed any and all chance of continuing with religion, and when approached by other religious folks who come to my door, this question always makes them question their faith. So much so, that I don't want to cause them unhappiness...that's not my goal. On the lighter side, I believe that people are free to do whatever makes the happy in life. If they want to believe in something and that makes them happy, then great.

All that aside, here is my argument and the problem I have with the belief in Jesus or any other Christian religion.

ARGUMENT: If you believe that the 10 Commandments is a divine document, then you have read the 2nd commandment and believe its intentions. In lay terms, we all know that the 2nd commandment addresses the requirement to worship no other god except the one true God. It makes no mention of SONS, DAUGHTERS, BROTHERS, SISTERS, PETS, or OBJECTS. There is one god and that's God. So, for all purposes, the interviewing and selection of a diety appropriate for worshiping is now CLOSED. THEREFORE, if you worship Jesus, or any other entity, you are defying the 2nd Commandment. In other words, worshiping Jesus is a sin.

Now, you will probably say "But you worship God through Jesus." Okay, standard reply. However, if you were going to create a sin to defy God, you would exactly use this approach. "Well, you get to God, through Jesus".

No. That's not what the 2nd Commandment says. It says NO OTHER GOD. No SONS, either.

THEREFORE, I say to you, and the reason I am writing for discourse today, that worshiping Jesus, or any other god, is a Cardinal Sin.

Anyway, thanks for reading. Like I said, not Trolling here...not looking to make people angry. It's just my problem with the whole Jesus thing.

Cheers.

Just in case this hasn't been mentioned yet, you're actually asking about the first commandment, not the second (which deals with the making of idols).

In any case, as I'm sure has been mentioned, worshiping Jesus is not a contravention of the first commandment because he is God incarnate. That is, he is God, has always been God, and will always be God. But, roughly 2000 years ago, God saw fit to take on human flesh, to minister to his people, to be the ultimate sacrifice for our sins and thus to redeem us from all unrighteousness, and then to "ascend" back to the heavenly realm, where he rules over all creation as the second Person of the triune Godhead.
It's just as simple, and as greatly complicated, as that.