Christianity and Hellenistic Dualism

[Zoot]

From another thread:

Christianity's a mix of Judaism and Hellenistic thought, with a few Pagan holidays and imagery assimilated here and there.

Christianity promotes a mindset where a person is told that they're split into two, "soul" and "body", given the impression that "they" are merely using the "body" as a vehicle, and that the "body" and the "soul" are warring with each other. You're told that perfection exists in the distant past (before the Fall) and the distant future (after the Resurrection), but right now the World is evil and out to get you, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, be in the world but not of the world, your true home is God (out there somewhere, not here), you were born with inherited dirtiness, and often that fleshly pleasures like sex and fine food are wrong.

Christianity inherited this from Hellenistic thought, not from Judaism. This dualism of spirit vs. matter.

 

[Ryoko Ozaki]

Hmm... spirit = energy... matter = energy... hmm.... Well, let's just play the game called equality of change. lol

 

[TWells]

Hey Zoot,

Christianity's a mix of Judaism and Hellenistic thought,

....and what is hellenistic about it? Scholarship within the last 30 or so years has done nothing but solidly confirms the "Jewishness" of early Christianity and Paul referred to as the "new perspective".

with a few Pagan holidays and imagery assimilated here and there.

Whatever holidays the later Church adopted in converting a pagain society is of no matter to Christian origins.

Christianity promotes a mindset where a person is told that they're split into two, "soul" and "body",

Wrong. Thats Augustinian theology and a Western mindset that became attached to Christianity almost 400 years later as it became a exclusively Gentile religion and lost its ANE roots. The Jews looked at body and Soul as one, because of the effect of a fallen world there would be a period in which the flesh would die. But the flesh would later be resurrected on the final day in the New Earth with the rest of Creation.

given the impression that "they" are merely using the "body" as a vehicle, and that the "body" and the "soul" are warring with each other.

Yea, yea, ive read Alan Watts too. I would agree with you that many Christians may have this point of view, but only out of ignorance. Not because Christianity was dualistic.

You're told that perfection exists in the distant past (before the Fall) and the distant future (after the Resurrection

And your point? Your complaint it that we're basically in the middle age. Would you argue that you or the world are in a state of moral perfection?

but right now the World is evil and out to get you, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak,

Generally the powers that be that rule this world at this time are evil as the last century has shown, would you argue otherwise? As Paul states in the Romans Christians live in the present age under Adam but as well under Christ. There is a process of being 'born again' as ones previous nature over time dies away and a new man is created. Your reading something into the text thats not there to say Paul was dualistic and believed the physical world to be 'evil'. His use of the word "flesh" was simply used to describe the "old man".

be in the world but not of the world, your true home is God (out there somewhere, not here),

The first part is in reference to the current moral order. Once again your simply disagreeing with a caricture of Christianity. "Blessed are.....for they shall inherit the Earth.", the Kingdom of God is at this point a idealogical one within true Israel that will one day expand to the the entire world when God will be "All in All".

you were born with inherited dirtiness, and often that fleshly pleasures like sex and fine food are wrong.

Sin entered the world through Adam and our lives are one big free will choice...what are you complaining about? Sex is affimed as a gift from God but with anything (such as wine) it can be abused.

Christianity inherited this from Hellenistic thought, not from Judaism. This dualism of spirit vs. matter.

Later Christianity may have picked up some western baggage but the Bible doesnt teach dualism. It sounds like your real problem lies not with Christianity but the straw man you met in place of it.

 

[Zoot]

Later Christianity may have picked up some western baggage but the Bible doesnt teach dualism. It sounds like your real problem lies not with Christianity but the straw man you met in place of it.

No, it sounds like my real problem lies not with what Christianity was, but what Christianity has become. ie., the caricature of itself that exists today. Certainly, if "real Christianity" or "original Christianity" doesn't teach a belief in souls, doesn't teach that the flesh is an obstacle, doesn't teach that sex is dirty, doesn't teach that we don't belong in this world, then these points of mine are irrelevant to it. But I don't know how many Christians fit this criteria.

And as for the "evil" in the world and whether or not I think the world is in a state of "moral perfection", these terms don't mean anything to me in the sense I assume you mean them to, and I can't give any real answer to your questions about it. I don't think this life should be rejected in the hopes of a fairy tale of a next one, no, nor do I think that this world should be rejected in favour of an imaginary "spiritual" one.

I look at how Christians think, not what some written theology happens to claim. Whether or not Christianity has in writing somewhere, "this world is bad and we don't belong here and flesh is dirty", that is the mindset adopted by many Christians and apparently encouraged by their religion.

 

[TWells]

Your certainly correct in the fact that Christianity (especially here in the US) has picked up a lot of things that it shouldnt. As a Christian though this is an exciting time as I believe somewhat of a theological and spiritual renewal is taking place. Though unfortunately its coming a little slower over here.

By moral perfection I mean as in loving "...the Lord your God with are your heat and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." and to "...love your neighbor as you love yourself."

I would suggest reading N.T. Wright's "The Challenge of Jesus". His writings are becoming more and more infleuential and is probably at the forefront of the renewal.

Im off to bed, Good Night!

 

[Zoot]

I read NT Wright at Bible college. I find him more critical than Borg, but as with all Christian (or Muslim, or religiously atheist, or conspiracy nut) scholars, he starts off with the assumption that his beliefs are correct and interprets the evidence in that light.

Your definition of moral perfection is still meaningless to me, since "God" is meaningless to me. But no, people certainly don't love their neighbours as themselves.

Theological and spiritual renewals come and go, but people will keep believing in imaginary things. The dualism isn't only in the religion, but in our language and culture. People who have no religion at all, but who grew up in Western culture, speaking English, often think of themselves as minds operating bodies like machinery, whether they call the mind "mind" or "soul". The feeling of unbelonging is not particular to Christianity, and indeed serves as the impetus for many people to convert to Christianity, but Christianity encourages it. It says, "Yes, your feeling of unbelonging is correct. Here is why. A long time ago, a man named Adam broke a rule, and now the whole world is in a pit of despair, and you'll never be properly, truly happy and at home until after death, when you leave your body and go to Heaven."

 

[SolomonVII]

More than Hellenistic thought, I think that Descartes had a lot to do with putting forth the dualism of mind and body. Basically, I agree with TWells that the idea of resurrection of the body is inherent to Christian thought and contrary to dualism.
As far as sex being dirty, while many in our society would think so, Christians included, Genesis describes God as creating a world of sexual being and seeing to it that this was good. Our sexuality is very powerful and can be easily abused to gain power over another. From the times of Roman slavery and the subsequent sexual abuse that Christians and others have continuously suffered at the hands of the more powerful, sex can be an experience that leaves one feeling dirty. Because the earliest Christians often came from the lower castes of Roman society, the strong prohibitions against sexual debachery of any kind that one reads in the New Testament very possible stems from their own negative experiences, and not from dualism.

 

[Zoot]

Because the earliest Christians often came from the lower castes of Roman society, the strong prohibitions against sexual debachery of any kind that one reads in the New Testament very possible stems from their own negative experiences, and not from dualism.

That's an interesting, and quite possible, explanation. I generally tend to think of Christian dualism as a mild form of the kind of dualism found in the Gnostic sects, where they either practised strict asceticism to beat the flesh into submission, or practised utter debauchery because the flesh didn't matter (addressed in one of John's letters, I believe).

As for Descartes, yeah, he did a whole bunch of damage, in my opinion. He reinforced the dualism already present in our thought and culture.

The worst damage he did was not so much the silliness of "I think therefore I am" as the way he went about doing so. It wasn't that he made us doubt our experiences (since he brought in God and said, "Well, God wouldn't deceive us like that,") but that he gave people the idea they could exist independent of their experiences, that they would have some meaning independent of the rest of the world. Reading Descartes, you have the world taken away from you, then given back, but you're left with the idea of a world that can be taken away. There's suddenly this (even greater than previously, with Hellenistic dualism) divide between you and your experiences.

Anyway. Yeah. The dualism of mind and body is merely a symptom of the dualism of "experiencer" and "experience".

 

[BlueTuna]

That's an interesting, and quite possible, explanation. I generally tend to think of Christian dualism as a mild form of the kind of dualism found in the Gnostic sects, where they either practised strict asceticism to beat the flesh into submission, or practised utter debauchery because the flesh didn't matter (addressed in one of John's letters, I believe).

Maybe you should give the book "Rethinking Gnosticism" by Michael Williams a try - it's all about the attempt to put certain stereotypes in perspective.

 

[Zoot]

I have a look for it.

 

[TWells]

I read NT Wright at Bible college. I find him more critical than Borg, but as with all Christian (or Muslim, or religiously atheist, or conspiracy nut) scholars, he starts off with the assumption that his beliefs are correct and interprets the evidence in that light.

I have a hard time believing that you have actually read Wright in light of your comments. I would be intersted in hear any of the assumptions Wright starts out with that prevents him from being objective. VoG spends 800 pages backing up its arguments as well as the previous volume in the series which is devoted exclusively to the world of 2nd Temple Judaism that Jesus lived in.

People who have no religion at all, but who grew up in Western culture, speaking English, often think of themselves as minds operating bodies like machinery, whether they call the mind "mind" or "soul".

So what? Christianity doesnt support this, and was more the result of Western philosophy. I see this as a issue as well but I think there are more pressing issues to worry about than whether western man feels alienated in his own body.

but Christianity encourages it. It says, "Yes, your feeling of unbelonging is correct. Here is why. A long time ago, a man named Adam broke a rule, and now the whole world is in a pit of despair, and you'll never be properly, truly happy and at home until after death, when you leave your body and go to Heaven."

Is that an Alan Watts quote, it would sure fall in line with his ignorance of Christian theology.

I would say its more like: A long time ago through a man named Adam sin entered the world, by man loving himself more than God, and now because evil was deafeated at the Cross the world is in a long process of healing and you wont be truly happy until your reconciled to God and all of Creation (including your own flesh) is one day reborn.

 

[Zoot]

I would say its more like: A long time ago through a man named Adam sin entered the world, by man loving himself more than God, and now because evil was deafeated at the Cross the world is in a long process of healing and you wont be truly happy until your reconciled to God and all of Creation (including your own flesh) is one day reborn.

I think you must have meant to start that with "once upon a time".

And no, it wasn't an Alan Watts quote. It wasn't an anyone quote. I suppose it could have been Alan Watts, but it could also have been Matthew Fox, probably. Could have been anyone.

So what? Christianity doesnt support this, and was more the result of Western philosophy. I see this as a issue as well but I think there are more pressing issues to worry about than whether western man feels alienated in his own body.

I think that many of those pressing issues are symptoms of considering oneself a stranger in the world, and separate from one's body.

I see no reason to share your view of Christianity. To every observation of Christianity as it exists today, you say something that amounts to, "Well, it's been corrupted." Point me at the real Christianity that exists today, so that I can look at that and tell you what I think of it.

 

[Zoot]

And I was unfair about NT Wright. He's ridiculously critical. I haven't read "The Challenge of Jesus". I'll look for it, but I wouldn't get your hopes up about me being blown away by it.

 

[Zoot]

It's very difficult to take people seriously when they talk about what I consider to be their imaginary friends, published author or no.

 

[TWells]

I think that many of those pressing issues are symptoms of considering oneself a stranger in the world, and separate from one's body.

Considering thats been a rather dominant view in the East and they're not much better off than us, im unconvinced.

I see no reason to share your view of Christianity.

Thats fine you dont have too. Just dont expect people to take you very seriously when you show such a complete misunderstanding of someones religion. Would you take me very seriously if I continually confused pantheism with theism?

To every observation of Christianity as it exists today, you say something that amounts to, "Well, it's been corrupted."

I dont think its been corrupted. I think their have been instances in which other small ideas and philosophies have attached themselves to it. But the basic message and theology have remained intact.

Point me at the real Christianity that exists today, so that I can look at that and tell you what I think of it.

Real Christianity is everywhere. I know plenty of Christians and scholars who share my views. But even if Christians dont share my views thats real too. If you want to actually look into it (which I doubt you actually would) this view is more dominant in Christianity of the South and East.

I'll look for it, but I wouldn't get your hopes up about me being blown away by it.

I doubt you will either as your mind was made up a long time ago. Keep in mind Challenge of Jesus is a laymens version of "Jesus and the Victory of God", which I would actually recommend reading more.

It's very difficult to take people seriously when they talk about what I consider to be their imaginary friends, published author or no

lol, um ok.

 

[Zoot]

Considering thats been a rather dominant view in the East and they're not much better off than us, im unconvinced.

Nah, the mind/body dualism and the person/environment dualism thing is everywhere. People call it a "Western thing", but that's just cos it's more Western philosophy than Eastern philosophy; both Western and Eastern cultures have it.

Thats fine you dont have too. Just dont expect people to take you very seriously when you show such a complete misunderstanding of someones religion. Would you take me very seriously if I continually confused pantheism with theism?

Does Christianity posit the existence of a "soul"? Yes. Does it posit the existence of a "supernatural realm"? Yes. Does it talk about warring with the flesh? Yes. Does it place an idea of "perfection" in the distant past and the distant future? Yes. Does it say we won't be truly happy until we leave this world and enter the next? Yes. Which of these do you deny?

I dont think its been corrupted. I think their have been instances in which other small ideas and philosophies have attached themselves to it. But the basic message and theology have remained intact.

What would you say is the basic message and theology, and which small ideas and philosophies have been attached?

Real Christianity is everywhere. I know plenty of Christians and scholars who share my views. But even if Christians dont share my views thats real too. If you want to actually look into it (which I doubt you actually would) this view is more dominant in Christianity of the South and East.

South and east of what? South-east Asia?

I doubt you will either as your mind was made up a long time ago.

Yes, it was. Luckily, circumstances allowed me to reconsider.


And my point was relevant, about imaginary friends. I realised that this is part of why I was being dismissive of Wright. It's like someone recommending a scholar who believes in Santa. Your mind goes, "Well, I'm sure he's got some interesting points and some evidence to back up... Wait a minute. He believes in Santa?!"

 

[TWells]

Howdy Zoot,

Nah, the mind/body dualism and the person/environment dualism thing is everywhere. People call it a "Western thing", but that's just cos it's more Western philosophy than Eastern philosophy; both Western and Eastern cultures have it.

My point is that the East has centered much of its secular and religious philosophy around this type of idea whereas its largely absent from Western philosphy.

which small ideas and philosophies have been attached?

Calvinism, dispensationalism to name a couple.

Does Christianity posit the existence of a "soul"? Yes. Does it posit the existence of a "supernatural realm"? Yes. Does it talk about warring with the flesh? Yes. Does it place an idea of "perfection" in the distant past and the distant future? Yes. Does it say we won't be truly happy until we leave this world and enter the next? Yes. Which of these do you deny?

1. Yes....and that proves dualism how?

2. Realm??....like some elsewhere, lofty, mystical place in the clouds where the Lord God lies around and looks down at the Earth with disinterest. No. "Heaven" is the presence of God that is beyond the physical world. The Jews believed YHWH was both in the world and beyond it, these "presenses" within were continaully involded with the world and were described as His Word, Wisdom, Torah, Spirit and Shekinah. Now his dwelling focal point is within Israel itself.

3. Yes...but not in the sense that you mean. Paul typically used "flesh" to denote mans pre-regenerate nature and that gradually over ones lifetime the old nature would die away. If this is dualism are you prepared to inlcude the vast majority of religions with it?

4. Yes, complete perfection. And this has what to do with the type of dualism you described?

5. No. At no point is it denied that one wont be happy in this life. I would describe it more as a increasing happiness as one becomes closer to God reaching its climax in a complete union with Him.

6. In the sense you use them pretty much all. Especially your attempt to read basically gnostic dualism into Paul, which scholars today would pretty much laugh at, I would recommend trying EP Sanders.

And my point was relevant, about imaginary friends. I realised that this is part of why I was being dismissive of Wright. It's like someone recommending a scholar who believes in Santa. Your mind goes, "Well, I'm sure he's got some interesting points and some evidence to back up... Wait a minute. He believes in Santa?!"

Oh I see....what you're basically saying is that you really dont have any way to respond to his arguments so you simply beg the question and using a straw man analogy. Thats a rather intersting way to find truth and to argue your point. You simply disregard anyone or any scholars (in this case one of the most renowned in the Third Quest) who are so foolish to belive in God.

Im going to go ahead and bow out of this thread as you really havent given anything in the way of actual argumentation.

Best Wishes.

 

[SolomonVII]

The idea of a bodily ressurection argues against the duality of mind and body. While Gnostic teachers may have regarded the physical world and the human body as evil, this has not been the Orthodox Christian view. To the extent that any modern Christian holds that one's body and one's sexuality as being inherently evil, the orthodox Christian would hold such views to be heretical as well.

Nevertheless, the alienation that many of us feel toward our own physical selves and our physical desires stands a a stumbling block even for those Christians who are non-dualists. Saint Augustine, living in a Roman society that was in many ways as carnal and pornographic as our own, struggled mightily against his own less than pure carnal urges. Even if he was able to control his sexual actions, because Christ reveals that lusting with our hearts is also sinful, Augustine was greatly troubled by the fact that sin loomed larger than his own limited free will. He was keenly aware of his inability to fully be the master of himself. Because of this Augustine came to believe that none can be saved but by the grace of God.

In an ethical sense, the organic, physical desire of the individual to expand oneself into the world cannot be accomplished without also taking into consideration the inherent worth and the desires of the others who are behaving in a similar fashion. To the extent that we do not become One Body in Christ, through the gifts of love and empathy, we become alienated from ourselves and from each other. Because both New and Old Testament clearly speak out against fornication and debauchery, Christianity has been critisized as alienating people from their own natural physical desires. However, my understanding of the Gospel is that what the Gospel is condemning is the type of sexuality that falsely regards one's own pleasure as being independant of the feelings of the other.

 

[Zoot]

Calvinism, dispensationalism to name a couple.

Yep, but that's not the stuff I'm talking about.

1. Yes....and that proves dualism how?

Has it not been obvious when I say "soul-body dualism" I mean "the dualistic belief in the distinction and separation of a person into the "soul" and the "body"?

2. Realm??....like some elsewhere, lofty, mystical place in the clouds where the Lord God lies around and looks down at the Earth with disinterest. No. "Heaven" is the presence of God that is beyond the physical world.

You're right. "presence beyond the physical world" doesn't sound lofty or mystical at all. Yes, "presence beyond the physical world" will do as an interpretation of "supernatual realm".

3. Yes...but not in the sense that you mean. Paul typically used "flesh" to denote mans pre-regenerate nature and that gradually over ones lifetime the old nature would die away. If this is dualism are you prepared to inlcude the vast majority of religions with it?

I'm absolutely prepared to include the vast majority of religions with it. Almost all of them do it, if not all of them in fact. They say, "Your mind is at war with your flesh, and your mind is good and your flesh is bad, so you want your mind to win." People tend to, correctly or incorrectly, identify their own body and natural instincts with the "pre-regenerate nature".

5. No. At no point is it denied that one wont be happy in this life. I would describe it more as a increasing happiness as one becomes closer to God reaching its climax in a complete union with Him.

That's what I meant by "truly happy". I know it doesn't deny tastes of happiness here.

6. In the sense you use them pretty much all. Especially your attempt to read basically gnostic dualism into Paul, which scholars today would pretty much laugh at, I would recommend trying EP Sanders.

I am not reading gnostic dualism into Paul. I am recognising Hellenistic dualism in both the gnostic heresies and in Christianity as it has developed.

Oh I see....what you're basically saying is that you really dont have any way to respond to his arguments so you simply beg the question and using a straw man analogy. Thats a rather intersting way to find truth and to argue your point. You simply disregard anyone or any scholars (in this case one of the most renowned in the Third Quest) who are so foolish to belive in God.

I was explaining, as part of my apology for being overly critical of NT Wright, my reflections on my reasons for being critical.

Im going to go ahead and bow out of this thread as you really havent given anything in the way of actual argumentation.

"Since I'm right and you're wrong, I'm going to stop posting in this thread."

Good one.

If you think that the following dialogue makes sense...

ME: Christianity suffers from soul-body dualism.
YOU: No, it doesn't.
ME: Are you saying Christianity doesn't teach that there's a soul?
YOU: No. Christianity does teach there's a soul. How is that soul-body dualism?

...then you utterly misunderstood my original criticism of Christianity in the first place.

 

[Zoot]

The idea of a bodily ressurection argues against the duality of mind and body. While Gnostic teachers may have regarded the physical world and the human body as evil, this has not been the Orthodox Christian view. To the extent that any modern Christian holds that one's body and one's sexuality as being inherently evil, the orthodox Christian would hold such views to be heretical as well.

Nevertheless, the alienation that many of us feel toward our own physical selves and our physical desires stands a a stumbling block even for those Christians who are non-dualists. Saint Augustine, living in a Roman society that was in many ways as carnal and pornographic as our own, struggled mightily against his own less than pure carnal urges. Even if he was able to control his sexual actions, because Christ reveals that lusting with our hearts is also sinful, Augustine was greatly troubled by the fact that sin loomed larger than his own limited free will. He was keenly aware of his inability to fully be the master of himself. Because of this Augustine came to believe that none can be saved but by the grace of God.

In an ethical sense, the organic, physical desire of the individual to expand oneself into the world cannot be accomplished without also taking into consideration the inherent worth and the desires of the others who are behaving in a similar fashion. To the extent that we do not become One Body in Christ, through the gifts of love and empathy, we become alienated from ourselves and from each other. Because both New and Old Testament clearly speak out against fornication and debauchery, Christianity has been critisized as alienating people from their own natural physical desires. However, my understanding of the Gospel is that what the Gospel is condemning is the type of sexuality that falsely regards one's own pleasure as being independant of the feelings of the other.

That seems like a much saner attitude than most forms of Christianity seems to engender in Christians. I doubt many Christians think much of the idea of the resurrection of their bodies. I don't know enough Orthodox people in real life to have any idea whether or not their mindsets match their the theology espoused by their church.

I have seldom come across Christians who do not on some level view themselves as strangers in the world, pure souls trapped in impure bodies in a seductive world run by a deceitful being (Satan, I mean, not God). They mourn the loss of goodness in Eden and yearn for the recovery of goodness in Armageddon, and emphasise greatly how unimpressed God is with us and everything we do.

And of course one can point to theological works in any of these denominations, or to the Christian scriptures, to support an argument that Christianity does not actually espouse this mindset, but in practice, it usually does.

You're Orthodox, Solomon? What does the Orthodox Church teach about the end of this world?