Christian Viewpoint On The Gun Debate

JosephZ said:

There's another group which is larger than the two you mentioned combined. Those who don't expect additional gun regulations to stop all firearm violence, but know taking further action will greatly reduce the number of firearm injuries and deaths.

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I agree that there needs to be some regulation as to who can own a gun as far as age and mental wellness or past activities.. But that's not what they are after. They are trying to ban guns.... and guns are inanimate.

Next you will have to ban pens as they write hate speech.

BurningBush84 said:

That doesn't make any sense. Let's punish Law abiding citizens. But let's give felons a slap on the wrist for committing gun violence??

There are almost 116,000 schools in the USA. How many of those schools had students get shot during class time ? What is the ratio ? The odds of being a victim of a school shooting is extremely low. Armed teachers or security guards would make those odds even lower. But good people shouldn't be allowed to have semi automatic firearms anymore because the odds of needing them for self defense are low ???

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I went down this rabbit hole yesterday actually. since/including sandy hook (11 years ago) there has been an average of 16 students killed or injured in school shootings. there are 50 million + kids in public schools alone.. so a student is about 3 times more likely to be struck by lightning than be involved in a school shooting.
i am absolutely not minimizing the tragedy. but it's important to put into perspective.

and another fact they tend to gloss over is "assault weapons" are only used in 3 percent of shootings.

you've got to ask yourself why they are willing to ignore a bedrock law of the land (2a), put about 400k people out of work, and effectively bankrupt a 70 BILLION dollar industry. nationwide ban on ARs would be the end of the civilian gun industry.

especially when it would cost them a few measley hundred mil to replace the "gun free zone" signs with "armed security on site" signs, lock the doors, and train a couple volunteers.

FenderTL5 said:

If more guns everywhere made us safer, America would be the safest country on earth. Instead, we have a gun homicide rate 26x that of other high-income countries.

The supposed "good guy with a gun" is rare, almost mythical.
I haven't compared the numbers but I'd be willing to guess that the instances of a good guy with a gun prevailing is less than the number of children killing themselves or others.


What you are advocating increases the number of casualties. More guns = more gun violence. That holds true all over the world with no exceptions.
Uvalde had armed security.

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More guns = more gun violence. That holds true all over the world with no exceptions.

this is 100 percent inherently false. there were 620k people killed in civil war. there were 19k people who were victims of gun homicides in 2020. were there more guns in 1861 or 2020?

"My buddy" has about 35 guns in his home as he's an avid recreational shooter. the gun violence in his home is still holding at 0.

is a warehouse with a million guns more dangerous than a warehouse full of 20? or 0? is being alone in a warehouse full of 20 million guns a more dangerous situation than being in a room with one madman and 1 gun?

people have always been the problem. not guns.

FaithFamilyFreedom said:

More guns = more gun violence. That holds true all over the world with no exceptions.

this is 100 percent inherently false.

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Prove it.

Just a few items supporting my claim:

Homicide​

1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review)
Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the U.S., where there are more guns, both men and women are at a higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.
Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David. Firearm availability and homicide: A review of the literature. Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40.

2. Across high-income nations, more guns = more homicide
We analyzed the relationship between homicide and gun availability using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s. We found that across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded.
Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. Firearm availability and homicide rates across 26 high income countries. Journal of Trauma. 2000; 49:985-88.

3. Across states, more guns = more homicide
Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten-year period (1988-1997).
After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.
Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Household firearm ownership levels and homicide rates across U.S. regions and states, 1988-1997. American Journal of Public Health. 2002; 92:1988-1993.

4. Across states, more guns = more homicide (2)
Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.
Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. State-level homicide victimization rates in the U.S. in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001-2003. Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64.

5. A summary of the evidence on guns and violent death
This book chapter summarizes the scientific literature on the relationship between gun prevalence (levels of household gun ownership) and suicide, homicide and unintentional firearm death and concludes that where there are higher levels of gun ownership, there are more gun suicides and more total suicides, more gun homicides and more total homicides, and more accidental gun deaths.
This is the first chapter in the book and provides and up-to-date and readable summary of the literature on the relationship between guns and death. It also adds to the literature by using the National Violent Death Reporting System data to show where (home or away) the shootings occurred. Suicides for all age groups and homicides for children and aging adults most often occurred in their own home.
Miller M, Azrael D, Hemenway D. Firearms and violence death in the United States. In: Webster DW, Vernick JS, eds. Reducing Gun Violence in America. Baltimore MD: Johns Hopkins University Press, 2013.

6. More guns = more homicides of police
This article examines homicide rates of Law Enforcement Officers (LEOs) from 1996 to 2010. Differences in rates of homicides of LEOs across states are best explained not by differences in crime, but by differences in household gun ownership. In high gun states, LEOs are 3 times more likely to be murdered than LEOs working in low-gun states.
This article was cited by President Obama in a speech to a police association. This article will hopefully bring police further into the camp of those pushing for sensible gun laws.
Swedler DI, Simmons MM, Dominici F, Hemenway D. Firearm prevalence and homicides of law enforcement officers in the United States. American Journal of Public Health. 2015; 105:2042-48.

linkage

prove it? beyond what I already said and the fact that firearms are inanimate objects and are incapable of anything just by their existence? ok. easy.

the firearm homicide death rate was nearly 7 per 100k in 1981 and under 5 in 2019.


not enough? why do these articles only discuss "developed" nations? is it because the places where 80 percent of these shootings happen could easily pass for a 3rd world country? regardless. Brazil has more shootings than we do and less guns. AND they have much more stringent gun control. El Salvador, Venezuela, Guatamala, Columbia, and Brazil all have less guns and a MUCH higher gun murder rate 30ish/100k which is 6x higher than the US. Are these articles somehow saying that because America is rich that none of the people committing shootings are poor?

and.. just for fun...
they keep using the term "more," I suspect just to imply that it's "a lot." an estimated 310 million privately owned guns in 2009. 19k gun homicides in 2020. meaning, even if every single shooting was done with a unique gun, it would still be 1 in every 16,300 guns is "responsible" for a death.

even the firearm suicide rate (which I never include in these things) is twice as high in GREENLAND of all places. how many guns do they have there? like 12?

FaithFamilyFreedom said:

the firearm homicide death rate was nearly 7 per 100k in 1981 and under 5 in 2019.

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The firearm homicide rate increased to 6.3 per 100K as of 2021.

Firearm homicides
Number of deaths: 20,958
Deaths per 100,000 population: 6.3

FaithFamilyFreedom said:

the firearm homicide death rate was nearly 7 per 100k in 1981 and under 5 in 2019.

not enough? why do these articles only discuss "developed" nations? is it because the places where 80 percent of these shootings happen could easily pass for a 3rd world country? regardless. Brazil has more shootings than we do and less guns. AND they have much more stringent gun control. El Salvador, Venezuela, Guatamala, Columbia, and Brazil all have less guns and a MUCH higher gun murder rate 30ish/100k which is 6x higher than the US.

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Firearm homicide rates are lower today than in the past in part because of advances in medical care, quicker paramedic responses, and more trauma centers. An individual shot by an assailant today is much more likely to survive than if they had been shot 1981.

Over the last 20 years, the chances that a person will survive a critical gunshot wound have increased substantially, perhaps by around 30 to 40 percent, said Dr. Thomas Scalea, professor of surgery at the University of Maryland Medical Center's R Adams Cowley Shock Trauma Center, who has treated thousands of patients with gunshot wounds over his three-decade career.

More people now survive critical gunshot wounds than they did several decades ago thanks to changes in trauma practice and technical advances. (Source)

This also explains the higher death rates in less developed countries like Brazil, El Salvador, Venezuela, Guatamala, and Columbia where medical care isn't as advanced and there is a lack of skilled first responders and trauma centers.

JosephZ said:

The firearm homicide rate increased to 6.3 per 100K as of 2021.

Firearm homicides
Number of deaths: 20,958
Deaths per 100,000 population: 6.3


Firearm homicide rates are lower today than in the past in part because of advances in medical care, quicker paramedic responses, and more trauma centers. An individual shot by an assailant today is much more likely to survive than if they had been shot 1981.

Over the last 20 years, the chances that a person will survive a critical gunshot wound have increased substantially, perhaps by around 30 to 40 percent, said Dr. Thomas Scalea, professor of surgery at the University of Maryland Medical Center's R Adams Cowley Shock Trauma Center, who has treated thousands of patients with gunshot wounds over his three-decade career.

More people now survive critical gunshot wounds than they did several decades ago thanks to changes in trauma practice and technical advances. (Source)

This also explains the higher death rates in less developed countries like Brazil, El Salvador, Venezuela, Guatamala, and Columbia where medical care isn't as advanced and there is a lack of skilled first responders and trauma centers.

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I apologize but I don't really understand your point.
the original argument was more guns = more gun violence.
I've shown that total guns in US has exponentially grown and at the same time death rates have dropped. I've shown that Brazil (for instance) has only 8 million estimated guns to our 400 million, yet you're 6 times more likely to be killed by a firearm there. are you saying we still have more "violence" than them?

or are. you simply just saying that medical advancements have kept the death rate down in spite of the ever rising number of total guns?

the first one is going to be incredibly difficult to back. I cant really find anything stating total violence has gone up while deaths have decreased. in fact the opposite.

shows an expected (in my mind, at least) correlating decrease with overall violent crime as well..


if you're claiming the latter, id have to respectfully disagree there as well. it has proven futile to find a total # of guns on 1980s. however I found something saying there are about 150 million more guns in private hands since 2011. if there are 400 million now there were 250 million then. which would be a 60 percent jump just since then. well outpacing the 40 percent claimed reduction in gun shot fatalities.i am quite sure the number of firearms has increased 100%+ since the 80s.

BurningBush84 said:

View attachment 329022

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Hitler should not be on this list. He did not kill 13 million of his own people. Mao was not in power in 1935. Whoever made this picture has no historical knowledge.

FaithFamilyFreedom said:

the original argument was more guns = more gun violence.

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Which is true and has been settled. See this post.

Some additional evidence below.

The indisputable fact is that where there are more guns, there are more gun deaths.

The top states by gun death rates are:

Mississippi – 28.6.
Louisiana – 26.3.
Wyoming – 25.9.
Missouri – 23.9.
Alabama – 23.6.
Alaska – 23.5.

All of those states with the highest gun death rates are among the ones with the highest gun ownership rates.

Mississippi – 50% of adults live in a household with a gun.
Louisiana – 48%.
Wyoming – 59%.
Missouri – 48%.
Alabama – 50%.
Alaska – 59%.

Where there are fewer guns, there are fewer gun deaths. The states with the lowest gun death rates in 2020, per the CDC (alongside the percentage of homes with a gun in 2007-2016, per RAND) were:

Hawaii – 3.4 (8% of adults live in a household with a gun).
Massachusetts – 3.7 (10%).
New Jersey – 5 (8%).
Rhode Island – 5.1 (11%).
New York – 5.3 (14%).

Source

The US stands as an extreme outlier among high income countries. The number of children killed by guns is 36.5 times higher in the US, compared to many other high income countries including Austria, Australia, Sweden, England and Wales, according to analysis recently published by the New England Journal of Medicine. In recent years international research has also proven conclusively that greater levels of gun ownership are closely associated with higher rates of gun violence.

...the evidence is now indisputable that more guns in a given country translates directly into more gun violence.

Source

FaithFamilyFreedom said:

I've shown that Brazil (for instance) has only 8 million estimated guns to our 400 million, yet you're 6 times more likely to be killed by a firearm there.

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You can't compare a developing country like Brazil which has a lower socioeconomic status with the US. There are several factors which make the firearm violence rate higher in that country vs. the US.

High levels of firearm homicide in a belt extending from Mexico to Brazil (and including the Caribbean) have been associated with drug cartels, the manufacture and sale of firearms and their illegal trade from the United States, and with postconflict movement of firearms into civilian populations in some countries.

...the availability of firearms and the role played by illicit trade are only one dimension of the complex problem of firearm-related violence in the region; multiple structural factors have also been identified as contributors including poverty, social inequalities or rapid social change, alcohol and drug use, and young population age structure. Violence at the intersection of these cultural factors, together with a high general availability of firearms, combine to produce high rates of mortality through the lethality inherent in the use of firearms.

Source

FaithFamilyFreedom said:

I've shown that total guns in US has exponentially grown and at the same time death rates have dropped.

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As I said, this is in part because of advances in medical care, quicker paramedic responses, and more trauma centers.

FaithFamilyFreedom said:

or are you simply just saying that medical advancements have kept the death rate down in spite of the ever rising number of total guns?

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No, I said that medical advancements were only part of the reason. This would also be a contributing factor in less developed countries like Brazil, El Salvador, Venezuela, Guatamala, and Columbia.

Aldebaran said:

Coinciding with when biden took office and it became fashionable to excuse criminal behavior. Further evidence that it's the social/political environment that's to blame for higher homicide rates than the number of guns.

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The increase in firearm homicides started during the previous administration.

The firearm homicide rate increased from 4.6 per 100K in 2019 to 6.1 per 100K in 2020.

The number of gun deaths in America hit an all-time high in 2020, owing mostly to an increase in homicides, according to new data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. A total of 45,222 people died of gunshot wounds — a 14 percent jump from 2019, when there were 39,707 gun deaths, and the largest year-over-year rise on record.

The steep increase in gun deaths was driven largely by homicides, which spiked 35 percent between 2019 and 2020. Guns were used in a greater proportion of homicides than ever before: 79 percent, up from 74 percent in 2019.

What percentage of this gun violence is done by cops shooting bad guys, people committing suicide , and people already prohibited from firearm possession??

What percentage of these gun crimes are committed by Republicans????

The Christian point of view is "Thou shalt not kill". I'm personally a pacifist, but I support gun ownership for self defense. Killing isn't the intent.

Photon Guy said:

I would like to point out that many of the people who want more gun control are the same people who want to allow abortion.

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Political platforms are strange like that. It would seem more logical to me that the pro-lifers should vehemently oppose the death penalty, for instance, whereas pro-choice types should support the death penalty. Even one innocent life taken is too many, in my opinion, and there have been situations where innocent people were wrongly accused and put to death.

The gun debate is similar unless one frames gun ownership as defensive rather than offensive. When criminals can obtain guns illegally, law-abiding citizens need legal access to guns in order to protect their lives and property.

Then again, maybe the criminals will give up their guns if we ask them nicely enough. Just be sure to say "pretty please" when asking.

Photon Guy said:

Speaking from a biblical perspective this is my viewpoint on the gun debate. Christians should be for gun rights. Why? Because guns are used for hunting and the Bible justifies hunting. Even if you're a Christian pacifist you've got to admit that guns are used for hunting. So if for no other reason Christians should be for gun rights because guns are used for hunting.

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I don't think anyone in the gun debate is against owning a gun for hunting. It's the using guns on people that people take issue with.

-CryptoLUtheran

FaithFamilyFreedom said:

I went down this rabbit hole yesterday actually. since/including sandy hook (11 years ago) there has been an average of 16 students killed or injured in school shootings. there are 50 million + kids in public schools alone.. so a student is about 3 times more likely to be struck by lightning than be involved in a school shooting.
i am absolutely not minimizing the tragedy. but it's important to put into perspective.

and another fact they tend to gloss over is "assault weapons" are only used in 3 percent of shootings.

you've got to ask yourself why they are willing to ignore a bedrock law of the land (2a), put about 400k people out of work, and effectively bankrupt a 70 BILLION dollar industry. nationwide ban on ARs would be the end of the civilian gun industry.

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Few are talking about bankrupting an industry. Just stopping the sale of unregistered and unlicensed aussault weapons isn't going to bankrupt the gun manufacturing industry.