christian values incompatible with christian scripture

[The Nihilist]

It seems to me that a number of opinions frequently associated with christians and with conservative christians in particular seem to be in absolute opposition to biblical principles. It seems unethical, therefore, that christians hold these opinions.


Concerning the pursuit of riches, which most of us call capitalism:
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth (Mathew 6:19,20)

Matthew 6:26
24No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Mark 10:21-25
21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Luke 6:24,25
24But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
25Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.



War (Jesus even seems to command against just wars or even self defense):
Luke 6:32-36
32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.


Capital punishment, all that noisy condemnation of homosexuality:
John 8:7
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Matthew 7:1-4
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?



I think that's plenty to start. If you're going to respond, don't just call me an atheist liberal homosexual babykiller, cite the bible. Don't just say that I need the Holy Spirit to understand, cite the bible. Show me I'm wrong. If you're going to cite a theologian or a doctrine, include a bible verse that backs up the theologian or doctrine. Prove me wrong.



To the moderators: This thread may look like it belongs in American Politics, or even in our beloved lost GA, but I assure you, this is entirely an ethical discussion. The reasons will become apparent a little later, but if you'd like to know them now, I'd be happy to share them over private messages.

 

[Verv]

Concerning the pursuit of riches, which most of us call capitalism:


I think that's plenty to start. If you're going to respond, don't just call me an atheist liberal homosexual babykiller, cite the bible. Don't just say that I need the Holy Spirit to understand, cite the bible. Show me I'm wrong. If you're going to cite a theologian or a doctrine, include a bible verse that backs up the theologian or doctrine. Prove me wrong.



To the moderators: This thread may look like it belongs in American Politics, or even in our beloved lost GA, but I assure you, this is entirely an ethical discussion. The reasons will become apparent a little later, but if you'd like to know them now, I'd be happy to share them over private messages.

First: How does encouragement of personal charity and poverty go against capitalism? There was nothing political in his statements.

Second: Christ speaks of not waging war in His name for His Kingdom as it says clearly in John 18:36, but why did he not tell the Centurion to abandon his lifestyle as a Roman soldier?

Third: How is neoconservative absolutely 'Christian morals?'

In fact, the Christian Social Democrats in Germany have been carrying your partyline since forever. There are many European socialists. Some also feel that the success of socialist party candidate Eugene Debs in the 1920 election was partly due to the influx of Lutherans from Norway and Sweden.

Are you also suggesting that Democrats cannot be Christians?

And, here is the biggest question:

Are you suggesting that our religious views should dictate our political views?

And another question:

What role does the Old Testament play in the Bible, and all of the build up to Christ? What things do we learn from that?

I recently wrote an article on the issued called Old & New Testament Morals & Their Ramifications.

I advise you to read it because I think you would find it an informative, Christian interpretation of the Bible that would cast light onto some of the questions your yearning mind would have on the topic.

I feel like you raise some good points, but I also feel like your desire to be contentious is greater than your desire to understand the Bible as it is.

 

[The Nihilist]

I guess I'm hoping to hear from those who do think religious views should dictate politics and that democrats can't be christians? Not that I don't appreciate your input, which is actually pretty interesting.

Also, capitalism isn't political, it's economic. As cited, Jesus isn't encouraging charity, he's discouraging actually being rich.

 

[ebia]

Concerning the pursuit of riches, which most of us call capitalism:
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth (Mathew 6:19,20)

Matthew 6:26
24No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Mark 10:21-25
21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Luke 6:24,25
24But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
25Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.



War (Jesus even seems to command against just wars or even self defense):
Luke 6:32-36
32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.


Capital punishment, all that noisy condemnation of homosexuality:
John 8:7
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Matthew 7:1-4
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?



I think that's plenty to start. If you're going to respond, don't just call me an atheist liberal homosexual babykiller, cite the bible. Don't just say that I need the Holy Spirit to understand, cite the bible. Show me I'm wrong. If you're going to cite a theologian or a doctrine, include a bible verse that backs up the theologian or doctrine. Prove me wrong.



To the moderators: This thread may look like it belongs in American Politics, or even in our beloved lost GA, but I assure you, this is entirely an ethical discussion. The reasons will become apparent a little later, but if you'd like to know them now, I'd be happy to share them over private messages.

Um, I'm not entirely sure what your question is?

Yes, we are called to put everything we have at God's service, and accumulation of wealth is idolatory.

Yes, we are called to loving, non-violent, action - not war.

Yes, we are called to set the prisoners free, not execute them.

I guess I'm hoping to hear from those who do think religious views should dictate politics

Religious views (at least those of Jews, Christians and Muslims) cannot be divorced from politics - they are inherently political. The fundamental claim of Christianity - Jesus is risen and is Lord - is a political statement.

The problem isn't thinking religious views should dictate politics, but thinking views consistant with following Jesus can be mapped straight onto the pecular package deals that make up modern western democracy. Which then turns around and tries to map the political package deal one has bought into back onto Jesus. Combine a pretense of seperation of politics and religion with a very sterile, package deal, political debate and that's what you get.

and that democrats can't be christians?

Only in the US do things map that way. Radical Christians outside the US are at least as likely be more at the left of the political spectrum as the right. In the UK and much of Europe, more likely.

 

[presto]

Im not sure I understand, I get bogged down on page long posts when I do this for entertainment. Why is accumulating wealth idolitry? I dont worship it I just enjoy the convienice but its still just stuff after we are gone.

 

[The Nihilist]

Oh dangit. I cut and pasted from a text document I'd written, and cut off the intro. I'll edit the original post, but it's as follows:

It seems to me that a number of opinions frequently associated with christians and with conservative christians in particular seem to be in absolute opposition to biblical principles. It seems unethical, therefore, that christians hold these opinions.

 

[ebia]

Oh dangit. I cut and pasted from a text document I'd written, and cut off the intro. I'll edit the original post, but it's as follows:

It seems to me that a number of opinions frequently associated with christians and with conservative christians in particular seem to be in absolute opposition to biblical principles. It seems unethical, therefore, that christians hold these opinions.

::nods::

 

[Supreme]

Indeed, the OP says it all. Lots of Christians, although claiming to be devout, have lost sight of the teachings of Jesus. A key example of this is the KKK. It's horrific yet laughable that a hate organisation like the Klan can claim to be Christian, yet dislikes blacks, gays, Jews, Catholics, Native Americans etc... Although, can I just add, self defense is probably the only thing Jesus prohibited that I endorsed, although any human is going to defend themselves, it's human nature.

 

[The Nihilist]

Although, can I just add, self defense is probably the only thing Jesus prohibited that I endorsed, although any human is going to defend themselves, it's human nature.

Don't you think this is hypocritical? If Jesus felt the way you did, you'd hardly be saved from your sins.

 

[Zebra1552]

It seems to me that a number of opinions frequently associated with christians and with conservative christians in particular seem to be in absolute opposition to biblical principles. It seems unethical, therefore, that christians hold these opinions.

So long as you don't think all Christians share the opinions you want to pin on us, great.

Concerning the pursuit of riches, which most of us call capitalism:
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth (Mathew 6:19,20)

Matthew 6:26
24No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Mark 10:21-25
21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Luke 6:24,25
24But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
25Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.

So, how does this contradict anything? At all? I mean, maybe the way people live, but I'm rather free with my money. I have enough for me, and the rest is usually given away in some form or another. Money is far from my first priority, save that I need it to live.

War (Jesus even seems to command against just wars or even self defense):
Luke 6:32-36
32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

How is this against war? Jesus isn't talking to governments here, he's talking to His followers. And for all I know, defending myself in a life-threatening situation could lead to the 'enemy' finding God or getting mercy because he didn't end up killing me. Heck, I could even not press charges.

Capital punishment, all that noisy condemnation of homosexuality:
John 8:7
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Matthew 7:1-4
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

How is that relevant to capital punishment? How it's done now is way different than how it was done then, so today it's quite pointless. I fail to see how that last bit is relevant to anything, unless you're one of the many who misinterpret that to say that one should never pass a moral judgment on another person... as it's not talking about moral judgment, it's talking about condemnation, similar to a judge giving a sentence.


I think that's plenty to start. If you're going to respond, don't just call me an atheist liberal homosexual babykiller, cite the bible.[/quote] I don't need the Bible, firstly, to get rid of your accusation of hypocrisy. Secondly, what kind of answers do you think you'll get when you just assume we're going to insult you? How rude of you, assuming I'm going to insult you... I don't assume anything about you, why should you about me?

Don't just say that I need the Holy Spirit to understand, cite the bible. Show me I'm wrong. If you're going to cite a theologian or a doctrine, include a bible verse that backs up the theologian or doctrine. Prove me wrong.

It's not hard when you make broad assumptions about the Bible and what Christians believe... a handful of neocons don't represent all of Christianity. Nevermind the morality of any of my beliefs, your OP is immoral because it tries to paint Christians with a wide brush.

 

[david_x]

Concerning the pursuit of riches, which most of us call capitalism:

This is an affair of the State, not the Church. I'm Mennonite, we believe in poverty.

War (Jesus even seems to command against just wars or even self defense):

Mennonite, pacifist.

Capital punishment, all that noisy condemnation of homosexuality:

Capital punishment: Mennonite, pacifist.

Homosexuality, not allowed among the Church. If the state wants to authorize it fine.

After all we are not citizens of this world but of the next.

 

[The Nihilist]

So long as you don't think all Christians share the opinions you want to pin on us, great.

So, how does this contradict anything? At all? I mean, maybe the way people live, but I'm rather free with my money. I have enough for me, and the rest is usually given away in some form or another. Money is far from my first priority, save that I need it to live.


How is this against war? Jesus isn't talking to governments here, he's talking to His followers. And for all I know, defending myself in a life-threatening situation could lead to the 'enemy' finding God or getting mercy because he didn't end up killing me. Heck, I could even not press charges.

How is that relevant to capital punishment? How it's done now is way different than how it was done then, so today it's quite pointless. I fail to see how that last bit is relevant to anything, unless you're one of the many who misinterpret that to say that one should never pass a moral judgment on another person... as it's not talking about moral judgment, it's talking about condemnation, similar to a judge giving a sentence.


I think that's plenty to start. If you're going to respond, don't just call me an atheist liberal homosexual babykiller, cite the bible. I don't need the Bible, firstly, to get rid of your accusation of hypocrisy. Secondly, what kind of answers do you think you'll get when you just assume we're going to insult you? How rude of you, assuming I'm going to insult you... I don't assume anything about you, why should you about me? It's not hard when you make broad assumptions about the Bible and what Christians believe... a handful of neocons don't represent all of Christianity. Nevermind the morality of any of my beliefs, your OP is immoral because it tries to paint Christians with a wide brush.

Whoa, let's take it down a notch. We're all friends here.
Godschild, you seem to be bending over backwards to convince yourself Jesus is talking to everyone but you. The bible doesn't say be free with your money, it says don't lay up for yourself treasures on earth, and all that other stuff. And you think Jesus isn't talking to governments? The dichotomy you present isn't biblical, and besides, as I understand them, governments are run by men and women. Your other arguments seem similarly flimsy.
But as I said to Verv, if these aren't your positions, that's fine. But some people believe this, and they're the ones I'm arguing with.

 

[Zebra1552]

Whoa, let's take it down a notch. We're all friends here.

Then why did you assume that anyone responding would be resorting to namecalling?

Godschild, you seem to be bending over backwards to convince yourself Jesus is talking to everyone but you.

Yeah right, do yourself a favor and present an argument before you attempt to attack my character. I'm not the issue here.

The bible doesn't say be free with your money, it says don't lay up for yourself treasures on earth, and all that other stuff.

Am I actively saving up money to buy things for selfish reasons? Then I'm not storing up treasure on earth. Check the context of your verses before you try to hold me to your overly literal interpretation.

And you think Jesus isn't talking to governments? The dichotomy you present isn't biblical, and besides, as I understand them, governments are run by men and women.

Who may or may not be Christians. Making empty claims about my arguments isn't going to get me to back down on this. Back your claims, please.

Your other arguments seem similarly flimsy.

What you think about my arguments doesn't matter much to me unless you actually address them.

But as I said to Verv, if these aren't your positions, that's fine. But some people believe this, and they're the ones I'm arguing with.

And I'm arguing with your interpretation of the verses in question. Engage the issue, and stop presenting empty assertions about me and my arguments. If you want to discuss this issue, then discuss the issue.

 

[The Nihilist]

Then why did you assume that anyone responding would be resorting to namecalling? Yeah right, do yourself a favor and present an argument before you attempt to attack my character. I'm not the issue here. Am I actively saving up money to buy things for selfish reasons? Then I'm not storing up treasure on earth. Check the context of your verses before you try to hold me to your overly literal interpretation. Who may or may not be Christians. Making empty claims about my arguments isn't going to get me to back down on this. Back your claims, please. What you think about my arguments doesn't matter much to me unless you actually address them.

And I'm arguing with your interpretation of the verses in question. Engage the issue, and stop presenting empty assertions about me and my arguments. If you want to discuss this issue, then discuss the issue.

Interesting point. I'll take it under consideration.

 

[Zebra1552]

Interesting point. I'll take it under consideration.

Whatever, it's your credibility, not mine.

 

[Romanseight2005]

I remember hearing about a man one time who was very rich and loved the Lord. He would send money to anyone who asked for it. People would often tell him that it was unwise for him to send money to everyone who asked for it. His response made me think. He said that he had been extremely wealthy, and he had been extremely poor. What he had learned through those times was that his dependency was on Christ, not on his income. Therefore, when he had the money, he would give it. He wasn't afraid of losing it. I would not venture to say whether this man's actions were correct or not. His heart's motive however, was right on. Whatever financial blessing he had was from God, and he did not see it as his own, but rather God's, and as such he gave it away as he attempted to glorify and serve God with it. He wasn't storing it up, so to speak.

 

[The Nihilist]

I remember hearing about a man one time who was very rich and loved the Lord. He would send money to anyone who asked for it. People would often tell him that it was unwise for him to send money to everyone who asked for it. His response made me think. He said that he had been extremely wealthy, and he had been extremely poor. What he had learned through those times was that his dependency was on Christ, not on his income. Therefore, when he had the money, he would give it. He wasn't afraid of losing it. I would not venture to say whether this man's actions were correct or not. His heart's motive however, was right on. Whatever financial blessing he had was from God, and he did not see it as his own, but rather God's, and as such he gave it away as he attempted to glorify and serve God with it. He wasn't storing it up, so to speak.

I hope you'll forgive me if I'm skeptical. I'm not skeptical that a person could be so generous, but I am skeptical that a person could be so indiscriminately generous and remain rich.
Also, biblically, I think the story of the widow's mite undermines the man's actions.

 

[Verv]

Nihlist brings up a good thing we have to consider, as Christians:

Some of the things which we believe in are not in line with theological Christianity.

For instance, Christians should consider ways to be less vain.

My grandmother, devout Lutheran and daughter of a Lutheran minister whom I was named after, made a point of dressing plainly and wearing minimal make up. Always made us eat all of the food on our plates... Always brought us to the 'dollar store' as a treat, gave us clothes for Christmas and minimal toys. As a Christmas present she taught me piano. None of this wa sbecause she was poor -- in fact, she is helping to pay for my college and is sitting on a wad of money.

Rather, it was because that is traditional Christianity.

The woman gives heavily to charity and probably has not bought anything in her life that wasn't necessary. Her idea of 'living it up' was renting three movies, making cheap, homemade popcorn and giving us discount brand soda.

I have taken to doing the same.

Friends party at my house often and we drink the cheap liquor, the cheap soda; the cheap everything. Ramyeon and $5 take-out pizzas or I cook up some omlets. No need spending dough like crazy. Live frugally.

I wear clothes that fit. Cheap brands or band shirts I picked up at concerts for $10 from people who have never toured outside of the three big cities of south Korea.

A Christian should not be vain nor should they pursue fancy cars and luxury. It doesn't register with me.

God blesses us so we can pass it on to others.

 

[Supreme]

Don't you think this is hypocritical? If Jesus felt the way you did, you'd hardly be saved from your sins.

I apologise if you're offended by people being allowed to defend themselves, I can understand it being unreasonable...

 

[Beanieboy]

I have never been a doomsdayer, but I think that the church is so far away from what Christ taught (such as me being screamed at that God hates me because I'm gay, contrasted to little 5 year old Beanie that used to sing, "Jesus loves me, this I know), that I think it is a sign that the End is actually drawing close. There are those that, rather than try to support their Christian brothers, try to tell their Christian brothers and sisters that they aren't really Christian because of some ridiculous criteria they pulled out of their armpit. There are those who jump up and down, saying, "you can't be X and a Christian!", and will want you to doubt if Jesus is in your heart, if God listens to your prayers, if God loves you, and will try as hard as they can to make you doubt the salvation of Jesus.

They are agents of the devil, and nothing short of it.
Christ did NONE of these things. The Pharisees of the Gospel did.

Christ made people free, excited to listen to him, full of hope, comforted, and encouraged. None of this is what Christianity is known for. That isn't to say that all Christians have turned a 180 in the direction they are walking. However, there are squeaky wheels that have muddied the name of Christ beyond recognition, and in so, have turned people off from God by their dark, cold, selfish hearts.

Those who choose this path will have to stand before God, and answer for their actions.