Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

hedrick · Oct 25, 2021

Hmm said:
Absolutely. I find this quote from Gregory of Nyssa very inspiring:

“As mediator between God and man [1 Tim 2.5]. He who is in the Father and has lived with men accomplishes intercession. Christ unites all mankind to himself, and to the Father through himself, as the Lord says in the Gospel, ‘As you, Father, are in me, and I am in you, that they may be one in us’ [Jn 17.21]. This clearly shows that having united himself to us, he who is in the Father effects our union with this very same Father.”

This idea of Christ as a mediator ( ladder, bridge, intercessor) between God and man is a very powerful one when understood more fully. Christ never failed us and He will not fail in this role of drawing us all into union with the Father.

Both of the quoted passages indicate that Christ was offered for the whole world. I see why he quoted them. But it’s less clear that John or pseudo Paul actually envisioned everyone being reconciled, and they say other things that would tend to make me doubt it. Unlike the genuine Pauline letters, it's very hard to imagine John as being universalist. Even the Synoptics require some imagination.

hedrick · Oct 25, 2021

Der Alte said:
Wrong! The verses plural that I have and can post trump the imagined controlling parallelism. And OBTW the subjunctive is an undisputed fact. Along with the other points I have made and which you have ignored.
Here are other verses where Paul addresses this topic. Twenty two categories of people who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

This is a misuse of those passages. Two things are obvious when you look at them:

* They are not part of an attempt to describe judgement. Rather, the point is “these things are inconsistent with Christianity, so don’t do them.”

* They seem to include everyone. Particularly everyone who posts here (strife).

How might everyone be saved even though everyone is doing things inconsistent with salvation? Maybe everyone ends up repenting when confronted with God. Maybe Christ died for everyone. This passage isn’t about judgement, so we don’t know.

hedrick · Oct 25, 2021

Der Alte said:
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

This is a strange passage to quote, since it seems to be the conclusion of 3:12-15, which talks about people having much of their lives destroyed, but still being saved.

Der Alte · Oct 25, 2021

hedrick said:
In the very passage you responded to, he quoted 1 Cor. Some of the passages cited here seem unconvincing, but 1 Cor 15 can plausibly be read as universalist. I can see other possibilities as well, but it’s a straightforward reading of the passage.

I missed 1 Cor 15 first time around had to guess at some of the words, Latin is not one of the languages I read.

Fervent · Oct 25, 2021

Andrewn said:
Apocatastasis with a populated endless hell (I assume you mean LOF) seems like a contradiction in terms. I haven't read historic universalists and have to depend on secondary sources. Here is some of what the Catholic Encyclopedia says about historic Apocatastasis:

"This doctrine was explicitly taught by St. Gregory of Nyssa, and in more than one passage. It first occurs in his "De animâ et resurrectione" (P.G., XLVI, cols. 100, 101) where, in speaking of the punishment by fire assigned to souls after death, he compares it to the process whereby gold is refined in a furnace, through being separated from the dross with which it is alloyed. The punishment by fire is not, therefore, an end in itself, but is ameliorative; the very reason of its infliction is to separate the good from the evil in the soul. The process, moreover, is a painful one; the sharpness and duration of the pain are in proportion to the evil of which each soul is guilty; the flame lasts so long as there is any evil left to destroy. A time, then, will come, when all evil shall cease to be since it has no existence of its own apart from the free will, in which it inheres; when every free will shall be turned to God, shall be in God, and evil shall have no more wherein to exist. Thus, St. Gregory of Nyssa continues, shall the word of St. Paul be fulfilled: Deus erit omnia in omnibus (1 Corinthians 15:28), which means that evil shall, ultimately, have an end, since, if God be all in all, there is no longer any place for evil (cols. 104, 105; cf. col. 152)."

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm

I realize that in the EO view, "The purifying fire is uncreated and unending." But this clearly doesn't mean that the individual purification process is endless.

Most of that is in agreement with what I've read, though the line "A time, then, will come, when all evil shall cease to be since it has no existence of its own apart from the free will, in which it inheres; when every free will shall be turned to God" I would want to see their source for as I have not seen such a thing supported in primary literature.

Der Alte · Oct 25, 2021

hedrick said:
This is a strange passage to quote, since it seems to be the conclusion of 3:12-15, which talks about people having much of their lives destroyed, but still being saved.

This passage is often quoted our-of-context by UR-ites as "proof texts" for UR.

1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

As quoted, out-of-context as it were, it certainly seems to say if all mankind's work survives they will receive a reward.
"All mankind's work shall be burned they will suffer loss but they will be saved by fire." Is the way UR-ites read it but let us look at the context.

1 Corinthians 3:9-17
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

This entire passage is addressed to "laborers together with God,""God's husbandry,""God's building." NOT all mankind.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Every occurrence of "every man,""no man,""any man" in this passage refers to the same group "laborers together with God,""God's husbandry,""God's building." who build on the foundation of Christ vss. 11-12, 14, NOT all mankind.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Not one single scripture says or implies that people are saved by some kind of work. None. None of the occurrences of "work" refers to the ordinary, mundane work of all mankind.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, [Christ vss. 11-12] he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This refers to the work of "laborers together with God,""God's husbandry,""God's building." who build on the foundation of Christ NOT all mankind.

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

This verse clearly shows that the preceding verses do not support UR.

hedrick · Oct 25, 2021

Der Alte said:
This passage is often quoted our-of-context by UR-ites as "proof texts" for UR.

1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
As quoted, out-of-context as it were, it certainly seems to say if all mankind's work survives they will receive a reward.
"All mankind's work shall be burned they will suffer loss but they will be saved by fire." Is the way UR-ites read it but let us look at the context.

1 Corinthians 3:9-17
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
This entire passage is addressed to "laborers together with God,""God's husbandry,""God's building." NOT all mankind.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
Every occurrence of "every man,""no man,""any man" in this passage refers to the same group "laborers together with God,""God's husbandry,""God's building." who build on the foundation of Christ vss. 11-12, 14, NOT all mankind.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
Not one single scripture says or implies that people are saved by some kind of work. None. None of the occurrences of "work" refers to the ordinary, mundane work of all mankind.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, [Christ vss. 11-12] he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
This refers to the work of "laborers together with God,""God's husbandry,""God's building." who build on the foundation of Christ NOT all mankind.

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
This verse clearly shows that the preceding verses do not support UR.

Yes. The safest reading of 3:12 is that it refers to Christians. 3:11 is the key. 3:12 refers to testing the buildings but 3:11 is referring to buildings with Christ as the foundation. But then the whole section isn’t talking about others. I thought of applying it to everyone, on the understanding that the testing described for Christians is only special case of something more general. But that’s only OK if there is other reason to think non Christian’s might be saved. 1 Cor 15 and Rom 6:7 are two examples. I keep meaning to write something about the implications of reading Rom 6 straightforwardly.

Hmm · Oct 25, 2021

hedrick said:
I keep meaning to write something about the implications of reading Rom 6 straightforwardly.

You may be interested in the following comments from Thomas Talbott's on the subject of reading Paul in general more straightforwardly. He's commenting on three verses from Paul and he says that given the parallelism of the two clauses in each sentence, the “all” clearly refer to the same class, namely, all human beings.

Here are the verses:

Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. (Rom 5:18)

For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all. (Rom 11:32)

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Cor 15:22)

And here is his comment in his book The Inescapable Love of God about reading them straightforwardly:

"In each of these texts, we encounter a contrast between two universal statements, and in each case the first “all” determines the scope of the second. Accordingly, when Paul asserted in Romans 5:18 that Christ’s one “act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all,” he evidently had in mind every descendant of Adam who stands under the judgment of condemnation; when he insisted in Romans 11:32 that God is merciful to all, he had in mind every human whom God has “shut up to,” or has “imprisoned in,” disobedience; and when he asserted in 1 Corinthians 15:22 that “all will be made alive in Christ,” he had in mind everyone who dies in the first Adam. The grammatical evidence here seems utterly decisive; you can reject it only if you are prepared to reject what is right there before your eyes. And though there seems to be no shortage of those who are prepared to do just that, the arguments one actually encounters have every appearance, it seems to me, of a grasping at straws."

He believes that the universalism is so plainly in Paul that we must wonder “why so many Christian theologians have struggled heroically to explain it away”.

Der Alte · Oct 25, 2021

Hmm said:
* * *
Here are the verses:

Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. (Rom 5:18)
For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all. (Rom 11:32)
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Cor 15:22)
* * *

I'm sure that Talbot is a noted UR scholar but I can read the NT in more than one language and do not need the opinions of any scholars of any stripe.
Here are four quotes from Paul which clearly refute UR.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesian 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

In the first three Paul lists 22 groups of sinners who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God. When Paul wrote Rom 5 do you think he forgot what he wrote in these three passages?
In Rom 11:32 is a subjunctive the mood of possibility/potentiality "have mercy on all" is NOT a done deal.
"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Cor 15:22)"
All men are "in Adam" because all men are literal descendants are literal descendants of Adam.
All men are not inherently "in Christ" And in the four passages above Paul says all men will not be in Christ.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

NOT “in Christ”NOT ”in Him” NOT gathered together in one.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

NOT “in Christ” NO redemption.

Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

“Walk after the flesh” NOT “in Christ” and there IS condemnation.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

NOT “in Christ” NOT free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

NOT “in Christ” NOT a member of the body.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

NOT “in Christ” NO sanctification, NO redemption.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Not “in Christ” old things NOT passed away, old things NOT made new.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

NOT “in Christ” NOT children of God.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

NOT “now in Christ Jesus” NOT ”made nigh” still far off.

2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

NOT “in Christ” NO promise of life.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

NOT “in Christ” NO salvation.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

NOT “in Christ” NO salvation.

Fervent · Oct 25, 2021

Der Alte said:
I'm sure that Talbot is a noted UR scholar but I can read the NT in more than one language and do not need the opinions of any scholars of any stripe.
Here are four quotes from Paul which clearly refute UR.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesian 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
In the first three Paul lists 22 groups of sinners who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God. When Paul wrote Rom 5 do you think he forgot what he wrote in these three passages?
In Rom 11:32 is a subjunctive the mood of possibility/potentiality "have mercy on all" is NOT a done deal.
"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Cor 15:22)"
All men are "in Adam" because all men are literal descendants are literal descendants of Adam.
All men are not inherently "in Christ" And in the four passages above Paul says all men will not be in Christ.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
NOT “in Christ”NOT ”in Him” NOT gathered together in one.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
NOT “in Christ” NO redemption.

Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
“Walk after the flesh” NOT “in Christ” and there IS condemnation.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
NOT “in Christ” NOT free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
NOT “in Christ” NOT a member of the body.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
NOT “in Christ” NO sanctification, NO redemption.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Not “in Christ” old things NOT passed away, old things NOT made new.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
NOT “in Christ” NOT children of God.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
NOT “now in Christ Jesus” NOT ”made nigh” still far off.

2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
NOT “in Christ” NO promise of life.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
NOT “in Christ” NO salvation.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NOT “in Christ” NO salvation.

To add to this, the context has to be considered. What is Paul talking about? The temporary cutting off of Israel for the salvation of the Gentiles. So "mercy to all" does not necessarily imply salvation, as the opportunity to be saved is itself a mercy. So it is quite trivial to hold that "mercy to all" does indeed mean all mankind, without inferring that it means that all will be saved.

Hmm · Oct 26, 2021

Der Alte said:
I'm sure that Talbot is a noted UR scholar but I can read the NT in more than one language and do not need the opinions of any scholars of any stripe.

Is there such a thing as a "UR scholar"? A scholar is a scholar, not a tiger of a fixed stripe, and should be led by the evidence, not by preconceptions. Talbot simply believes that the evidence overwhelmingly supports UR.

It's good that you are able to read the NT in more than one language but what about the OT? Can you read Hebrew or do you depend on scholars who can, or do you simply ignore it? In general, don't you find that the interplay of ideas from others whether they are scholars or not helps you formulate and continually develop your own? Why else would you come on a forum such as this?

Hmm · Oct 26, 2021

Fervent said:
So "mercy to all" does not necessarily imply salvation, as the opportunity to be saved is itself a mercy.

The "opportunity for mercy" is not in itself a mercy. A mercy's only a mercy if it is exercised.

If I had been tried for a crime I had committed and was awaiting sentencing, while the judge is considering the sentence I have the opportunity of mercy. But what use is that if the judgement was that I go to prison to be tortured for the rest of my life? That would be a complete absence of mercy. Mercy would only be shown if my crime was forgiven or if the punishment was proportionate and remedial.

Daniel Marsh · Oct 26, 2021

Hmm said:
What is it about universal redemption that annoys so many Christians? Shouldn’t we be happy that God’s love and mercy are wider, higher, deeper, and broader than we could ever imagine? We all sin at times so shouldn't we welcome the thought that God is not going to annihilate or eternally torment us if we don't “accept,” “trust,” “repent,” “believe,” well enough to appropriate the grace of God?

You would think so but it seems from the recent threads on Christian Universalism that this is not the case. Why is this?

Here are some of the reasons that have been expressed in the threads:

1. ”If everyone is or will be saved, what’s the point in following Jesus?”

To me, anyone who thinks this must see following Jesus as a heavy burden, one that needs the reward of heaven to make it worth the hassle. But shouldn't following Jesus and having a good relationship with him here and now be its own reward?

It's also a misunderstanding of Christian Universalism to think it says that we don't have to receive the saving grace of Christ in order to be reconciled to God and to each other. It just says that if we don't manage to do this in this life there will be boundless opportunities to do so in the next one and that eventually every one will accept forgiveness and repent of their sins... ”that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth" (Phil 2:10)

2. "All my hard work at being a Christian has been undermined".
This is very much like 1. Shouldn't any work we do be done out of love for God, not for any personal eternal rewards?

3. ”If there is an 'us,' there has to be a 'them'"
This may be true about some things such as football: I support Manchester United so I hate Manchester City (I'm from the UK, apologies) but it needn't apply to matters of faith. If we are going to heaven when we die there doesn't have to be a group who go to hell.

These three reasons seem to have something in common and that's judgementalism. They're all essentially saying "Look, I'm a good Christian and my hard work and sacrifices has earned me membership into the very exclusive club of heaven and, sad to say it, but most other people haven't done anywhere nearly as enough as me and so, unfortunately, missed out on the opportunity." This makes you think of the work vs. faith debate ironically but, moving swiftly on from that, isn't it true that being judgemental is wrong and if that's the main reason behind our objection to Christian Universalism, shouldn't we consider that we might be misunderstanding it?

There are biblical arguments that can be made for and against Christian Universalism but there are plenty of existing threads discussing that so, assuming anyone wants to respond!, I'd be more interested in hearing what your gut, visceral reaction is, whether for or against, when you hear the words "Christian Universalism". For me, it's basically relief that God is a loving God and not a monster after all.

The simple fact is Universalism give people false hope that God will not judge them and send them to hell.
Matthew 25:46 clearly contradicts that false hope.

Hmm · Oct 26, 2021

Daniel Marsh said:
The simple fact is Universalism give people false hope that God will not judge them and send them to hell.
Matthew 25:46 clearly contradicts that false hope.

You've convinced me. I'm going to worship a God who does judge people and send them to hell from now on. Much obliged.

Saint Steven · Oct 26, 2021

Daniel Marsh said:
The simple fact is Universalism give people false hope that God will not judge them and send them to hell.
Matthew 25:46 clearly contradicts that false hope.

Let's look at the Greek.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

Hmm · Oct 26, 2021

I dunno, reading the last few posts, is ECT a peculiarly Protestant thing? If I understand it correctly, the Catholic church's stance is that we should hope for universal restoration and for a hell that is empty and the Orthodox church has no doctrinal position on it. It seems only within Protestantism is ECT hung onto so fiercely and defended to the death, rightly or wrongly, as a core belief. And I say that as a Protestant, or more accurately now, a highly embarrassed and reluctant Protestant.

Saint Steven · Oct 26, 2021

Hmm said:
I dunno, reading the last few posts, is ECT a peculiarly Protestant thing? If I understand it correctly, the Catholic church's stance is that we should hope for universal restoration and for a hell that is empty and the Orthodox church has no doctrinal position on it. It seems only within Protestantism is ECT hung onto so fiercely and defended to the death as a core belief. And I say that as a Protestant, or more accurately now, a highly embarrassed and reluctant Protestant.

As I understand it, ECT came to Protestantism from the Western/Latin/Catholic Church. (from Roman paganism) Only recently has it become a small part of the Eastern/Orthodox church. Probably an influence of the Western Church. Those in Eastern Orthodoxy that know their history tend to embrace UR. But it is controversial in the EO church.

Saint Steven · Oct 26, 2021

Saint Steven said:
As I understand it, ECT came to Protestantism from the Western/Latin/Catholic Church. (from Roman paganism) Only recently has it become a small part of the Eastern/Orthodox church. Probably an influence of the Western Church. Those in Eastern Orthodoxy that know their history tend to embrace UR. But it is controversial in the EO church.

@Hmm -- Brad Jursak is able to teach UR in his EO church because it is allowed, not because it is a primary doctrine of EO. So, Brad is able to fly under the radar and do what he does so well with a supportive denomination. Home - Brad Jersak

EmethAlethia · Oct 26, 2021

Mat 25:46 "TheseG3778 will goG565 awayG565 into eternalG166 punishmentG2851, but the righteousG1342 into eternalG166 lifeG2222."

Same word is used. Both heaven and hell last exactly the same amount of time. Pick a meaning you like, but use the exact same meaning for both. Jesus did.

Hmm · Oct 26, 2021

Saint Steven said:
As I understand it, ECT came to Protestantism from the Western/Latin/Catholic Church. (from Roman paganism) Only recently has it become a small part of the Eastern/Orthodox church. Probably an influence of the Western Church. Those in Eastern Orthodoxy that know their history tend to embrace UR. But it is controversial in the EO church.

Yes, it does seem to be an Augustinian, Western thing rather than Gregorian, if that's the right word, and Eastern, St Gregory of Nyssa being the Augustine of the East. Augustine seems to have been the main person responsible for codifying and promulgating ECT as well as other wondrous Protestant ideas such as predestination and original sin.

Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Senior Veteran

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

Well-Known Member

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

You can call me Steve

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Newbie

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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