I'm not sure what you're saying here. Where do the historic version of universalism and modern universalist positions part ways?
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I'm not sure what you're saying here. Where do the historic version of universalism and modern universalist positions part ways?Made after the image of God is not the same thing as being the image of God. This is where the historic version of universalism and modern universalist positions part ways, as what was generally understood to happen is that the image was burned off of the wicked, restoring the humanity that was once present in them while remanding their wills to eternal torment.
I assume that in your Annihilationist view some people are resurrected to be judged and annihilated. Are these a majority (all non-Christians) or a tiny minority (those who still reject Christ in Hades)? And if it is the former case, is there a function for Hades? Why aren't they annihilated immediately after death?
Modern universalist positions forward that all individuals will be eventually restored, whereas historic universalism holds that the entirety of "humanity" will be restored even though individuals will still go to hell. Historic philosophies present a demarcation between the image that is placed within men, and the men themselves. So historic universalist positions are compatible with the existence of a populated eternal hell, while modern universalist positions deny the existence of such.I'm not sure what you're saying here. Where do the historic version of universalism and modern universalist positions part ways?
Wrong! The verses plural that I have and can post trump the imagined controlling parallelism. And OBTW the subjunctive is an undisputed fact. Along with the other points I have made and which you have ignored.If Paul had intended to say it wasn’t a done deal he wouldn’t have made the two points parallel each other.
I guess your "high standard of doing things," does not extend to addressing the verses I quoted.This is simply my opinion and my high standard of doing things, so it’s not intended as a slight on you. But if your Greek knowledge is based upon copying and pasting to others from an online interlinear, then you don’t know Greek. Almost everyone online does this and they don’t know Greek either.
Wrong! The verses plural that I have and can post trump the imagined controlling parallelism. And OBTW the subjunctive is an undisputed fact. Along with the other points I have made and which you have ignored.
Here are other verses where Paul addresses this topic. Twenty two categories of people who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
I guess your "high standard of doing things," does not extend to addressing the verses I quoted.
I started learning to speak Greek in the late 50s in Germany overseeing Greek workers in Germany and studied Greek formally at the graduate level about 2 decades later. I'm not an expert but knowledgeable enough to know when people are trying to snow me.
You challenged me on the subjunctive, I provided evidence which you ignored.
I know this wasn't directed at me, but that can only make a tenuous case at best. The Hebrew word that is often translated as "everlasting" or "eternal" is more literally translated as indeterminately long. Given the concrete nature of the ancient Hebrews thinking there wasn't truly a way to conceptualize infinites, especially since the language primarily relies on pictoral representation(the letters are each actually patterned after images such as Bet being a house and the words combined those pictures so that the image displayed conveyed the thought within it.)Der Alte,
I was wondering if the debate around 'eternal' could be further resolved by looking at the usage of aidios in the septuagint and seeing if the Hebrew indeed confirmed 'never ending'...
I know this wasn't directed at me, but that can only make a tenuous case at best. The Hebrew word that is often translated as "everlasting" or "eternal" is more literally translated as indeterminately long. Given the concrete nature of the ancient Hebrews thinking there wasn't truly a way to conceptualize infinites, especially since the language primarily relies on pictoral representation(the letters are each actually patterned after images such as Bet being a house and the words combined those pictures so that the image displayed conveyed the thought within it.)
Modern universalist positions forward that all individuals will be eventually restored, whereas historic universalism holds that the entirety of "humanity" will be restored even though individuals will still go to hell.
Apocatastasis with a populated endless hell (I assume you mean LOF) seems like a contradiction in terms. I haven't read historic universalists and have to depend on secondary sources. Here is some of what the Catholic Encyclopedia says about historic Apocatastasis:Historic philosophies present a demarcation between the image that is placed within men, and the men themselves. So historic universalist positions are compatible with the existence of a populated eternal hell,
Very comforting words, unfortunately Ol' Greg did not quote any scripture in support of his views. See e.g.Apocatastasis with a populated endless hell (I assume you mean LOF) seems like a contradiction in terms. I haven't read historic universalists and have to depend on secondary sources. Here is some of what the Catholic Encyclopedia says about historic Apocatastasis:
"This doctrine was explicitly taught by St. Gregory of Nyssa, and in more than one passage. It first occurs in his "De animâ et resurrectione" (P.G., XLVI, cols. 100, 101) where, in speaking of the punishment by fire assigned to souls after death, he compares it to the process whereby gold is refined in a furnace, through being separated from the dross with which it is alloyed. The punishment by fire is not, therefore, an end in itself, but is ameliorative; the very reason of its infliction is to separate the good from the evil in the soul. The process, moreover, is a painful one; the sharpness and duration of the pain are in proportion to the evil of which each soul is guilty; the flame lasts so long as there is any evil left to destroy. A time, then, will come, when all evil shall cease to be since it has no existence of its own apart from the free will, in which it inheres; when every free will shall be turned to God, shall be in God, and evil shall have no more wherein to exist. Thus, St. Gregory of Nyssa continues, shall the word of St. Paul be fulfilled: Deus erit omnia in omnibus (1 Corinthians 15:28), which means that evil shall, ultimately, have an end, since, if God be all in all, there is no longer any place for evil (cols. 104, 105; cf. col. 152)."
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm
I realize that in the EO view, "The purifying fire is uncreated and unending." But this clearly doesn't mean that the individual purification process is endless.
Very comforting words, unfortunately Ol' Greg did not quote any scripture in support of his views.
Please show me where I used the word "never?" In what was quoted no scripture is cited. If someone has a Gregory quote which includes scripture I would be glad to give it a read. Wonder how many ECF, prior to Gregory, supported UR, with scripture. Origen is often quoted as if he was the ECF poster boy for UR. Did you know that Origen gave us a bullet proof definition of "aionios" as "eternal,""everlasting,""forever" etc? I stumbled on this while researching another UR-ites claim that "Origen often spoke about 'after eternal life.'"Do you think that because something is comforting it must thereby be false? Isn't the gospel supposed to be Good News? And the Holy Spirit the Comforter?
Gregory wrote extensively and played a major role.in drawing up the Nicene Creed. He is known as the "father or fathers". To say he never quotes scripture is absurd.
If someone has a Gregory quote which includes scripture I would be glad to give it a read.
Absolutely. I find this quote from Gregory of Nyssa very inspiring:
“As mediator between God and man [1 Tim 2.5]. He who is in the Father and has lived with men accomplishes intercession. Christ unites all mankind to himself, and to the Father through himself, as the Lord says in the Gospel, ‘As you, Father, are in me, and I am in you, that they may be one in us’ [Jn 17.21]. This clearly shows that having united himself to us, he who is in the Father effects our union with this very same Father.”
This idea of Christ as a mediator ( ladder, bridge, intercessor) between God and man is a very powerful one when understood more fully. Christ never failed us and He will not fail in this role of drawing us all into union with the Father.
* * *
FYI I have been teaching and preaching through the Bible since Carter was president.
Snark, snark. Just a point of reference to make the point I did.And fyi, for anyone on a journey, it's not how long they've been on the road that's important but how far down it they've gone.
And fyi, for anyone on a journey, it's not how long they've been on the road that's important but how far down it they've gone.
How far they have gone is less important than what direction they have gone in...
In the very passage you responded to, he quoted 1 Cor. Some of the passages cited here seem unconvincing, but 1 Cor 15 can plausibly be read as universalist. I can see other possibilities as well, but it’s a straightforward reading of the passage.Very comforting words, unfortunately Ol' Greg did not quote any scripture in support of his views. See e.g.
και απελευσονται ουτοι εις κολασιν αιωνιον οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον
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