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Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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Saint Steven

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So you don't think God has cared enough to similarly watch over His Word and make sure we have what He intended ???
Did God "watch over His Word" when the translations mentioned below were made? Did we get "what He intended"?

Saint Steven said:
The same free will we have was applied to the Bible. Of course God would allow it. The same God that allowed Young to make his translation. (which you marginalized as not being "majority") If you really believe God is sovereign over the Bible, how did this happen? Same goes for the JW and SDA translations. Don't make an idol out of a book.
 
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Carl Emerson

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No, I'm not saying that.
But it certainly doesn't fit the category you have invented for it.

Steve it is best if we address the message rather than slur the messenger.

If you agree that God has watched over His word and we have what we need, then main stream translations are carrying the meaning He intended - yes??
 
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Saint Steven

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Steve it is best if we address the message rather than slur the messenger.

If you agree that God has watched over His word and we have what we need, then main stream translations are carrying the meaning He intended - yes??
Yes, we have what we need.
But I disagree with everything else in your post.

If the messenger messed up, and I believe they did, then they deserve to be criticized. If God "watched over His Word" we wouldn't have conflicting and erroneous translations. The message is what we are all debating here.
 
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Carl Emerson

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So the bible as it is, combined with the Holy Spirit's help, is adequate for our understanding of essential truth in this age?
 
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Der Alte

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What some folks don't know or maybe ignore because it does not fit their narrative.
"Young’s Literal Translation of the Bible was first translated in 1862 by Robert Young, a Scottish publisher who was self-taught and proficient in various ancient languages. Young also compiled Young’s Analytical Concordance and Concise Critical Comments on the New Testament. A revised version of the YLT was published in 1887 and a new revised version in 1898, a year after Young’s death."
https://www.gotquestions.org/Youngs-Literal-Translation-YLT.html
 
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Saint Steven

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So the bible as it is, combined with the Holy Spirit's help, is adequate for our understanding of essential truth in this age?
The Bible, despite the way it is, with the Holy Spirit's help, is barely adequate for us to debate the truth in this age. That's why there is no consensus. All according to plan. There is no salvation in doctrine. Only God can save. And he will. Every last one of us. Love wins.

Saint Steven said:
Yes, we have what we need.
But I disagree with everything else in your post.

If the messenger messed up, and I believe they did, then they deserve to be criticized. If God "watched over His Word" we wouldn't have conflicting and erroneous translations. The message is what we are all debating here.
 
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Der Alte

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Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything, support almost any doctrine by quoting selective verses out-of-context as has been done in this post.
Romans 11:5
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant [of Jews] according to the election of grace.​
Only a remnant of the Jews NOT all Israel?
Romans 11:14
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.​
Why does Paul have to "provoke to emulation" to save some of his fellow Jews if they are all going to be saved no matter what?
Romans 11:20-22
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:​
Paul's fellow Jews were broken off because of their unbelief. and gentiles grafted into Jesus, If all mankind are going to be saved, no matter what, why are gentiles warned to fear?
21 For if God spared not the natural branches,[Jews] take heed lest he also spare not thee.[gentiles]​
If Paul said all mankind Jews and gentiles alike will be saved why do the gentiles have to take heed or God might not spare them?
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.​
If gentiles do not continue in God's goodness they will be cut off, like Israel was, NOT saved.
Romans 11:23
23 And they also, if they [Jews] abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.​
If the Jews remain in unbelief they will not be saved, grafted in again.
 
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Fervent

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It's not the Bible that is at fault, as the disagreements between those who place it at center tend to be overstated by critics. And of course we have people who divorce themselves from what the Bible says entirely who think their opinions carry equal weight to exegetical disagreements that only appeal to the Bible when it is useful to their argument and try to disregard everything else that make it seem like there is a greater degree of disagreement than there is.
 
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Cormack

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Clearly they did not all repent.

Pauls care for them was alive and active even without their repentance, no? Moses would stand in the space if God would allow for his nation and so too would Paul, and of course Christ died for the sins of the world.


However we read in the climax to the entire argument that by provoking the nation and bringing in the gentiles “all of Israel will be saved.” During that section there’s a clear distinction being made between Israel as the Jewish people and the gentile world, so it’s not an effort at hyping up and promoting the salvations of an otherworldly “spiritual Israel,” rather it’s the salvation of the actual nation of Jews. “All of Israel will be saved” actually occurs in the Bible so far back as Jeremiah and Isaiah, where the only Israel that was known was the people, the literal descendants of the man Israel.

That’s not to write Paul doesn’t make a provision for this category of spiritual descendants, he actually makes it in Romans nine, but even there it’s not in view of God creating people for eternal damnation, rather it’s with a mind to show that the gentiles too have access to salvation. Gentiles too can be the sons of God because there’s a spiritual category of son, but Paul doesn’t write that in an effort to disqualify Jews from the blessing.

Harmonising the verses was done a page or two back when we read how God was hardening for a purpose, namely for the ingrafting of the gentiles. The section you quoted is actually followed by four Old Testament citations where Paul stresses the ingrafting, though just sharing one should be enough. . .

As he says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”
Since Romans 11 is arguing for hope and salvation in the case of the wicked Jewish nation, there’s no use in you or I thinking that Romans 9 is a judgment passage that’s trying to allude to people created for eternal conscious torment. Rather the “objects of wrath prepared for destruction,” like in the case of psalms, are about to suffer temporal destruction in the war where the second temple falls.

What is that group’s ignoble purpose, Carl? Not to be doomed from the womb and suffer torment forever, surely not. That’s betraying the whole cultural and historic context. Instead the dishonourable use was that the Jewish people rejected and murdered their own messiah to the advantage of the gentiles.

Now the ingrafting of a wild olive branch can move the natural branches that have been cut off to jealousy. Romans 11 really answers your concerns shared in Romans 9 and gives both you and I a thorough conclusion to the whole line of argument that Paul is going through.

Stopping and making base camp midway through his argument doesn’t do our theology any favours.

Looking at this passage the wolves were created to be wolves...

That would be the dishonourable use theme and something Paul and God expect or wish to redeem.

Are you a determinist or do you believe in any of the five points of Calvinism?
 
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Carl Emerson

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Theology doesn't do much for me...

I simply post verses when I feel the face value meaning is being ignored.

Have a good day.
 
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Cormack

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If Paul had intended to say it was a done deal he would not have used the subjunctive

If Paul had intended to say it wasn’t a done deal he wouldn’t have made the two points parallel each other.


This is simply my opinion and my high standard of doing things, so it’s not intended as a slight on you. But if your Greek knowledge is based upon copying and pasting to others from an online interlinear, then you don’t know Greek. Almost everyone online does this and they don’t know Greek either.
 
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Hmm

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Topics like the one linked below are the issue. I couldn't find the topic I was looking for, but this one below is of the sort.

Thanks for the link. I had a quick scroll through and saw this link to a DBH article so thought I'd share it here too.

It appears likely that Origen was never actually condemned. Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart. And that even the spurious condemnations don’t include most forms of universalism.
 
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Saint Steven

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Thanks for the link. I had a quick scroll through and saw this link to a DBH article so thought I'd share it here too.
Thanks.
Right, the condemnation of Origen was not in reference to Universalism, but to other issues of his teaching.
 
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Hmm

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Thanks.
Right, the condemnation of Origen was not in reference to Universalism, but to other issues of his teaching.

Yes, and 300 years after his death. He was disgracefully treated by the church and his reputation should be restored but, as DBH, said that would involve the church admitting it had got it wrong and that's always a hard thing to do, even for a church. It's interesting to read though that the Orthodox church has never condemned universalism as a heresy. From the article:

"Not that there really is much of an argument to be had on the matter. Orthodoxy’s entire dogmatic deposit resides in the canons of the seven ecumenical councils—everything else in Orthodox tradition, be it ever so venerable, beautiful, or spiritually nourishing, can possess at most the authority of accepted custom, licit conjecture, or fruitful practice—and the consensus of the most conscientious and historically literate Orthodox theologians and scholars over the past several decades (Evdokimov, Bulgakov, Clément, Turincev, Ware, Alfeyev, to name a few) is that universalism as such, as a permissible theologoumenon or plausible hope, has never been condemned by the Church. Doctrine is silent on the matter. So live and let live."

I always have to consult a dictionary whenever I read DBH. Theologoumenon means a theological statement or concept in the area of individual opinion rather than of authoritative doctrine.
 
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Andrewn

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For now that I realize the aeon/eternal debate is yet another distraction
Exactly, if "aionios" meant "endless" there would have not been any debate about UR among Early Church Fathers to whom Koine Greek was the first language, and who understood its meaning very well.
 
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hedrick

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It’s also not clear that it is a heresy for the Catholic Church. Certainly hopeful universalism has been taught by Catholic authorities recently.

Conservative Protestants see it as a heresy because many of them don’t think there’s anything to Christianity other than a way to avoid hell. I’m not sure if the same is true of conservative Catholics and Orthodox.
 
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Saint Steven

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I always have to consult a dictionary whenever I read DBH. Theologoumenon means a theological statement or concept in the area of individual opinion rather than of authoritative doctrine.
Yes, he has a remarkable vocabulary.
 
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Andrewn

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