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Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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Hmm

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To begin, I said that there are some verses that suggest (not prove, but hint at) UR.

I agree that any amount of verses by themselves won't prove the case because there are other verses that suggest ECT and a few that support annihilation. But I think "hint" is too weak a word given the number of "universalist type" verses

Yes, Christ's sacrifice can be said to "lead to...life for all." But there are all sorts of ways that "life" can be interpreted that is not an eternity in heaven, and "lead to" does not say "it's guaranteed," which is what you hope to find.

But does "life" need to be interpreted. Doesn't it simply mean life?

The verse is this:

Therefore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.
Romans 5:18

so it doesn't only say "lead to", it says "lead to in the same way that Adam's sin lead to our estrangement from God." We are all alienated by God and so the meaning must be that we will all be justified and be given new life.

And it's not so much what I hope to find, although I do, it's more what I think the Bible is saying - if I didn't believe it really does say that I would simply give up my faith. I wouldn't bother trying to twist the meaning - what would be the point?

Do you then believe Scripture to be promising eternal life for all animals and/or the righting of all unfortunate events, etc.? If not, why does it say "all things'' (not all Men)?

As a dog owner, I honestly do believe that!

And then we have to deal with the many other and more numerous verses that seem with even more certainty to speak of the lost being eternally LOST! By and large, in these discussions, they are just dismissed as "not translated correctly."

But what if it was all caused by mistranslations as many scholars believe? I may be cynical but that is entirely conceivable to me.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I, for one, am willing to believe that Universalism is true, IF the person explaining it to me can jump through the Hermeneutical and Exegetical hoops that I kind of expect him/her to jump through in order to handle any of the Bible's contents ...
 
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Hmm

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No Creed, whether the Nicene or Athanasian or any other, affirms universal salvation

But neither do they talk about ECT. The Nicene creed talks about looking forward to the resurrection of the dead. That is consistent with universalism at least.


You are mainly talking about the opinion of certain historical figures and the attitudes of certain theological schools from that era, not the historic church.

I'm sure there were differences of opinion in the early church but many of the figures who were out and out universalists were major players: Origen, Gregory of Nyssa and so on. They aren't the historical church but what is the historical church is these figures are excluded?
 
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Hmm

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I, for one, am willing to believe that Universalism is true, IF the person explaining it to me can jump through the Hermeneutical and Exegetical hoops that I kind of expect him/her to jump through in order to handle any of the Bible's contents ...

I could do it as easily as a performing seal!
 
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Maria Billingsley

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But what does that mean? I do not agree that Jesus Christ of Nazareth would torment someone forever and His Gospel most certainly does not teach that He would, however sad that may be.
Ah ok. So you believe in Universalism. I love Jesus Christ of Nazareth no matter how He deals with those who hate Him. Can you love Him to that extent? Or do you have guidelines?
 
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Hmm

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Ah ok. So you believe in Universalism. I love Jesus Christ of Nazareth no matter how He deals with those who hate Him. Can you love Him to that extent? Or do you have guidelines?

I have moral guidelines. I would not love Jesus Christ of Nazareth if he was willing to torment people forever, however much they "hated" him. Just like I could not love a human father who tortured his children for the rest of their lives, or even for one second, simply because they said "I hate you daddy!", or for any reason whatsoever come to that. I believe our moral conscience is from God and tells us about his nature anyway so there is no question in my mind that God is like this.

Can anyone really love a God who is responsible for, or who at least allows, ECT? Seems to me you can only either fear or reject such a god. Love is not an option.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Can anyone really love a God who is responsible for, or who at least allows, ECT? Seems to me you can only either fear or reject such a god. Love is not an option.

Well, you know what they say, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
 
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Cormack

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I have moral guidelines.

I believe our moral conscience is from God and tells us about his nature anyway so there is no question in my mind that God is like this.

Can anyone really love a God who is responsible for, or who at least allows, ECT? Seems to me you can only either fear or reject such a god. Love is not an option.

Often it really seems that Christians don’t believe in things like morals or divine love, not when you dig deep into their doctrinal spaghetti.

They believe in power. They believe God has the power and that’s the only thing that really matters.

Their talk of how you or I should behave morally or what we should drink, eat or listen to on the radio is about power too. Their power authorised from on high.

Morals serve as ornaments to their ego.
 
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Hmm

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Well, you know what they say, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Maybe, but from my current perspective this would only be possible for me if I had a complete personality bypass and became essentially someone who wasn't me.
 
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Maybe, but from my current perspective this would only be possible for me if I had a complete personality bypass and became essentially someone who wasn't me.

Doesn't "all things" in this case mean that you're covered, too? "All" means "all," right?
 
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Hmm

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Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

It is a false teaching designed to lead many away from God and His Word.

WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

Try telling that to the influential early Christian Universalists next time you meet them in this list compiled by Patristics scholar Ilaria Ramelli:

The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.​
 
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Andrewn

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Can anyone really love a God who is responsible for, or who at least allows, ECT? Seems to me you can only either fear or reject such a god. Love is not an option.
There is even worse theology than that: Calvinists who believe God predestines only few people to heaven :-(.
 
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Hmm

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Doesn't "all things" in this case mean that you're covered, too? "All" means "all," right?

Yes, if "all" means "all" I would be the first to bow my knee and praise such a glorious God.
 
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Hmm

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They believe in power. They believe God has the power and that’s the only thing that really matters.

I believe you've hit the nail on the head.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Yes, if "all" means "all" I would be the first to bow my knee and praise such a glorious God.

I guess now we just have to have someone tell us if in this case "all" means "all." Does it?

So, it's your call since it's you're thread, and you're the performer. I'm just another head in the audience.
 
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Hmm

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I guess now we just have to have someone tell us if in this case "all" means "all." Does it?

So, it's your call since it's you're thread, and you're the performer. I'm just another head in the audience.

Well, let's consider the word "all" in this verse:

for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
I Corinthians 15:22​

I have to go off to eat some more fish so let me pass you on to philosopher Keith deRose and his analysis.of this:

"Note the “all.” I guess there can be some question about what it means to be made alive in Christ. A cynic might suggest that some might be made alive in order to stand judgment and be tortured forever. But that’s very strained, especially after one’s read the surrounding context of this passage and has also discovered what’s usually meant by such phrases. It’s very clear, I think, that those who are “made alive” in Christ are, as it’s often put, “saved.” The question is, To whom will this happen? This passage’s answer: All! A point of grammar, which holds for the Greek as well as our English translations: The grammatical function of “in Christ” here is not to modify or limit the “all.” The passage doesn’t say, “…so also shall all who are in Christ be made alive.” If it said that, I wouldn’t be so cheered by the passage. Rather, “in Christ” is an adverbial phrase that modifies the verb “shall be made” or perhaps the whole clause, “shall all be made alive.” Thus, this passage says that all shall be made alive. How? In Christ."
 
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Hmm

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Universalism is a very appealing concept, as long as Hitler and other mass murderers are forced to truly repent before they are allowed into Heaven.

I agree although I wouldn't use the word "forced". Who wouldn't finally repent? Is even Hitler so evil that he would eternally refuse to repent and receive God’s love? It's conceivable I guess but would it really happen? Would not God revealing his love and beauty over an unlimited amount of time in a remedial "hell" “be able to eventually draw in even someone like Hitler? Even he is someone who God created and loves as his child.
 
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Jay Sea

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My Gut feeling is that there has to be a universalism to "Salvation" or whatever term you wish to use for everyone going to be with G-d in the next "world" by the very nature of G-d. If even mankind by nature would not abandon another that they deeply love, G-d certainly will "NOT". No matter what scripture may say. I'll back G-d before anything intermediated in revelation through man or church doctrine.
In Love
Jay Sea
 
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