Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Have you Biblically demonstrated they are not?
Just as soon as you prove that I'm not rightwise king born of all England. Sorry, but "prove it isn't" whatever is always ridiculous.Have you Biblically demonstrated they are not?
Just as soon as you prove that I'm not rightwise king born of all England. Sorry, but "prove it isn't" whatever is always ridiculous.
It is remarkable how common this kind of fallacy is today, although it was the same sort of anti-intellectual optimism that led the People of God astray in the time of Jeremiah.
What is it about universal redemption that annoys so many Christians?
Shouldn’t we be happy that God’s love and mercy are wider, higher, deeper, and broader than we could ever imagine?
We all sin at times so shouldn't we welcome the thought that God is not going to annihilate or eternally torment us if we don't “accept,” “trust,” “repent,” “believe,” well enough to appropriate the grace of God?
Here are some of the reasons that have been expressed in the threads:
1. ”If everyone is or will be saved, what’s the point in following Jesus?”
To me, anyone who thinks this must see following Jesus as a heavy burden,
It's also a misunderstanding of Christian Universalism to think it says that we don't have to receive the saving grace of Christ in order to be reconciled to God and to each other. It just says that if we don't manage to do this in this life there will be boundless opportunities to do so in the next one and that eventually every one will accept forgiveness and repent of their sins...
”that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth" (Phil 2:10)
3. ”If there is an 'us,' there has to be a 'them'"
This may be true about some things such as football: I support Manchester United so I hate Manchester City (I'm from the UK, apologies) but it needn't apply to matters of faith. If we are going to heaven when we die there doesn't have to be a group who go to hell.
There are biblical arguments that can be made for and against Christian Universalism
For me, it's basically relief that God is a loving God and not a monster after all.
This is true. But when the one who wills / wants / desires is God himself, it is reasonable to conclude that He will achieve what He wants.Your not addressing the fact that the Greek word thelō was used 5 times in a context of want or desire not in the context of something that is decreed to become certain. That was the whole point of presenting Romans 7:15-21. It proves that your definition of thelō is incomplete. It is not only used meaning something that is certain to be but can also be used as something one desires or wants to be.
Knowing the fate of particular persons is not our purpose or privilege. There are people who have persecuted, severely tortured, and killed Christians and others. There is no way of knowing their fate.Another example would be when Jesus said that for the one who betrays Him it would be better for him if he had never been born. If Judas was ever destined to enter Heaven then it certainly wouldn’t be better if he had never been born.
Clearly, no one who continues to blaspheme the Holy Spirit will enter Heaven. The age to come (usually called eternity) is millions and millions of years. Anything can happen.Then there’s Luke 12:10 he who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven but he who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. In the parallel verses in Matthew it’s written neither in this world/age or the next. In Mark 3 it’s written he never has forgiveness but is guilty of an eternal sin. Taking all of these into consideration reveals that there’s a contrast between the sins that will be forgiven and the sin that won’t be forgiven. All three of these parallel verses say the same message but in three different ways. They must be interpreted in a way that coincides with each other. I know most universalists will point to Matthew 12:32 and argue the definition of the word aiōn but you have to examine the context of all three parallel verses and even in Matthew 12:31 He specifically said it shall not be forgiven. No one can enter Heaven with unforgiven sins.
Amen to this.Yes Jesus died for all men, he is the propitiation for the whole world. I absolutely agree with this but only those who abide in Him will He acknowledge before The Father and only those will be saved. He will be the one to decide who He will forgive and who He will not because He paid the price. My beliefs have nothing to do with my wants or desires they are the result of my studies on the word of God regardless of my feelings because I know that no matter what God decided I fully trust that He knows what’s best and He will always make a better decision than I ever could. I don’t question it I just believe what the scriptures tell me and in the end if I’m wrong I’ll still be content knowing that I didn’t allow my personal feelings get in the way of my beliefs or my preaching.
Christian universalism,.definition of an oxymoron.
It doesn't annoy me; it puzzles me why anyone teaches it.
Why would Jesus have taught that if the truth was "live as you like, you'll be saved in the end"?
It is.
His love is so great that he will not force anyone to believe in, and love, him
Only faith the size of a mustard seed is needed.
If someone says, "will you accept Jesus?" or if he himself were to say that; all that's needed is the word "yes". Faith and understanding don't come all at once, but once we belong to Jesus he will never let us go and no one can snatch us from his hands.
We don't need to, and can't, "do enough to appropriate the grace of God" - it is there for all; waiting for a response.
It's not so much "why follow Jesus?" but "why would Jesus have told people to repent and have eternal life now", if it isn't necessary?
"If we don't MANAGE to receive God's grace in this life", implies, to me, that there has not been the chance to receive it - the Gospel hasn't been preached, or fully understood. God would know and understand if that had been the case and would, imo, judge accordingly.
That is not at all the same as saying, "I reject God, I'm not going to accept him or think about him now; he will save me/give me another chance after death because he is love".
Everyone will see, and recognise, Jesus; even those who rejected him in this life. That doesn't mean they will be able to repent and be saved.
Imo, that's what hell will be - knowing without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus died for your sins, but also knowing that you rejected that forgiveness when it was offered, and it is now too late. Knowing that Jesus is Lord and that all honour and glory is due to him; the one that you hated/rejected.
Except that the NT says otherwise.
In the NT, you are for Jesus, or against him; in the light or in the darkness; have eternal life, or don't. Those who reject God's amazing, free gift of eternal life, Romans 6:23, cannot live with him when they die. If people die in their sins, with unforgiven sin, how and why would a Holy God say "it's fine; be saved and come and live with me forever anyway"?
I can't see any for it - repent, receive eternal life or perish, seems pretty clear to me.
Not a monster, after all" suggests that you have thought/been taught that he is - maybe because someone has said that he sends people to hell to be punished. Maybe you have grown up with images of a God who tortures people for not believing in him; pushing them, happily, towards an eternal barbecue.
He doesn't.
He has sent Jesus, given us the Gospel and the choice of whether or not to receive his free gift of life. If someone, deliberately and continually says "no" to God, knowing who he is and what they are rejecting, how would it be loving to force them to spend eternity with him when they die?
This is true. But when the one who wills / wants / desires is God himself, it is reasonable to conclude that He will achieve what He wants.
Knowing the fate of particular persons is not our purpose or privilege. There are people who have persecuted, severely tortured, and killed Christians and others. There is no way of knowing their fate.
Clearly, no one who continues to blaspheme the Holy Spirit will not enter Heaven. The age to come (usually called eternity) is millions and millions of years. Anything can happen.
Nice gloss. . .agreed.Just as soon as you prove that I'm not rightwise king born of all England. Sorry, but "prove it isn't" whatever is always ridiculous.
Hitler's been brought up quite a lot as evidence against universalism - How can he possibly be saved alongside somebody like let's say Martin Luther King? Wouldn't that be negating the suffering of his tens of millions of victims? I don't think there are any definitive answers to questions such as these but I wonder if this makes any sense: suppose you as a parent/care giver have two children, one who's athletic, bright and sociable who you you don't feel particularly worried about and another who has serious needs such as mobility, emotional or mental health needs.
Wouldn't you as the care giver do your best to meet their individually needs? You wouldn't just give up on the more demanding child. I was wondering whether God sees us in the same kind of way and
It's not about "Hitler types," it's about rejecting Jesus Christ and his atoning work for sin.even though we may write off Hitler types, God doesn't because we are all His children.
Nor are we all his children. . .we are all his creatures.
Only those in Christ are sons of God.
All life systems resulting from creation by the Creator.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?