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Good point. I do sometimes have a tendency to overthink these things, to try to make it all "work" logically. I do at least recognize I'm doing this and will step back and remind myself it's really a matter of faith rather than logic.Concerning why some come to faith and others don't, I normally go to John 3:19-21. But this gives me something to think about as well.
Stick around.
Concerning why some come to faith and others don't, I normally go to John 3:19-21. But this gives me something to think about as well.
Interesting, because this is the perspective I more typically hear from atheists: Christians are only Christians because they fear Hell. My response is that, in my 52 years of experience as a Christian, this is absolutely not the case. In my experience, "fear of Hell" barely registers on the radar screen of most Christians' motivations for turning to Christ and remaining in the faith.I once started a thread asking people if they would be a Christian if there was no afterlife. Many if not most basically said their only reason for becoming a Christian was to escape eternal torment. Now if you really understood the UR point of view, that's seen as "giving people an offer they can't refuse". And I have to wonder if free will is measured in the consequences of not accepting an offer being the absolute worse outcome that could possibly exist.
Put another way, is someone becoming a Christian because they were terrified not to, not a result of coercion?
IIRC that happened in this life, not after death, right? I sometimes wonder what they did with that second chance? We can always hope they realized the tremendous free gift they had been given and acted accordingly.What about Luke 23:34 as an answer?
I'm not setting up anything. I'm just calling them as I see them.
I could not agree with you more, But that happened in this world not after death right?
Absolutely. In this life right? Got any examples of salvation after death?
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Psalms 88:10-11
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
1Thessalonians 4:13
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Ephesians 2:12
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
JPS Prov 24:20
(20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
Psalms 115:17
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
IIRC that happened in this life, not after death, right? I sometimes wonder what they did with that second chance? We can always hope they realized the tremendous free gift they had been given and acted accordingly.
Interesting, because this is the perspective I more typically hear from atheists: Christians are only Christians because they fear Hell. My response is that, in my 52 years of experience as a Christian, this is absolutely not the case. In my experience, "fear of Hell" barely registers on the radar screen of most Christians' motivations for turning to Christ and remaining in the faith.
"Fear of Hell," if genuine, implies some depth of belief in the God of Christianity. "I'll pretend to be a Christian just in case there is a Hell" isn't going to do the job.
Since Hell (whatever that may mean to you) is part of the Gospel message, who cares if this is part of a Christian's motivation? I assume the biblical warnings are there because they are supposed to influence our thinking.
Hell is a secondary issue. Whether a deity exists and, if so, whether He is the God of Christianity, are the central issues. As I suggested above, no one is going to have a genuine concern about Hell unless he or she already has some depth of belief God exists. Whatever coercive force the doctrine of Hell may have, it's hardly in the same category as standing face to face with God.
Signing off ... I really can't keep up the dialogue, and I'm just helping bury my own post about 1 Corinthians 15:22.
It's funny how there's always an explanation for why they're having snide side conversations, mocking, being snarrky or directly insulting, etc. Somehow that's our fault. But if we show even an inkling of repayment in kind we're monsters.
It already happened once with the "Harrowing of Hell".The question, for me, is whether post-mortem progression is possible at all.
Yes. The Damnationist position is bolstered by a biased and erroneous translation.I don't know that they have to be ignored, but they have to be interpreted.
Many of those at the crucifixion who knew not what they were doing, were given an opportunity to get it right about six weeks later:What about Luke 23:34 as an answer?
I don't know that they have to be ignored, but they have to be interpreted.
Awaiting your analysis of post #4496 ...Yes. The Damnationist position is bolstered by a biased and erroneous translation.
Great excuse for hypocrisy, I suppose. Mock, insult, and use exceedingly unkind "humor," get called on it and blame the victim, and when that fails claim it goes both ways. Reciprocation, I suppose.That goes both ways and is usually a result of reciprocation.
Garbage. If that was the case, then why would the greatest evagelist, writing more of the NT than anyone else, NEVER NEVER NEVER even mention the word HELL????? (the 1 exception being, "the lying pen" of your translation's SCRIBES Jer 8:8)You apparently would like for God to make His reality and the reality of Hell so compellingly obvious as to be coercive - to compel belief.
Garbage. Scripture states that not even YOU, were born again according to the mythical 'free' will doctrine.Alas, that isn't what He has done. We do have plenty of evidence that many people who are presented with the full Gospel message will, in fact, reject it and even ridicule it. Your position is apparently that God should make everything soi obvious that unbelief is impossible for anyone.
Your will is never truly free, until HE SETS YOU FREE.What is the "it" you're talking about? I try to deal with reality as it is and God's message as we have it. I don't speak for God, but what makes sense to me is that He wants to spend eternity with genuine moral agents who have exercised their free will to choose what He offers and spend eternity in communion with Him. If He wanted to save everyone, regardless of what free-will choices they had made, I don't believe our reality would look the way it does or God's message would sound like it does. That's all I can tell you.
I thought kicking butts came first. As in...... maybe we should begin to assemble a definitive list of these two kinds of folks ... and take names.
Tell me about it... I live in Minnesota. - lolI was so pleased with myself after my morning run in ghastly weather conditions
No love lost there...... those of Saint Steven’s ilk...
From our perspective, we who receive Him are born again. This is also plainly stated in the first Altar call (Acts 2:36-41).JOH 1:12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
This is a famous verse for your side in Christianity. WHERE does verse 13 say YOU are 'born again'/"born"? "of blood"/your heritage, "the will of 'your' FLESH", or the "will of man"/YOU?
In Other Words IOW, where does YOUR WILL even land, in the first "born again" salvation, that of saving of your spirit? Certainly not on the 'FREE' side.
Your will is never truly free, until HE SETS YOU FREE.
Well, let's see:MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL BEFORE YOU LEAVE; IRKLE
Tell me this;
1CO 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
How in HELL could "destruction of the flesh" by "Satan" ever lead to the 'SAVING OF THE SPIRIT' of a rebellious 'CHURCH GOING MAN man', like Paul is dealing with in this verse?
Garbage. If that was the case, then why would the greatest evagelist, writing more of the NT than anyone else, NEVER NEVER NEVER even mention the word HELL????? (the 1 exception being, "the lying pen" of your translation's SCRIBES Jer 8:8)
Garbage. Scripture states that not even YOU, were born again according to the mythical 'free' will doctrine.
JOH 1:12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
This is a famous verse for your side in Christianity. WHERE does verse 13 say YOU are 'born again'/"born"? "of blood"/your heritage, "the will of 'your' FLESH", or the "will of man"/YOU?
In Other Words IOW, where does YOUR WILL even land, in the first "born again" salvation, that of saving of your spirit? Certainly not on the 'FREE' side.
Your will is never truly free, until HE SETS YOU FREE.
JOH 8:36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free INDEED.
Oh yes you have bought the lie that you were "free INDEED" to choose Him. But that is not scriptural. You can't even accept "THE TRUTH" of the gospel unless "God" "the Father" FIRST immerses/gives you the 'baptism of repentance', to change your mind, so that you can even choose Him. It's called "predestination" and "foreordained" in YOUR BIBLE.
2TI 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God MAY PERHAPS GRANT that they will REPENT and come to know THE TRUTH,..
2TI 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to every one, an apt teacher, forbearing,26 and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
I believe "every one"means "every one". And, in this case that would mean everyone NOT SAVED and everyone like your side guys who don't agree with 'our side guys'.
PLEASE do not, RUN, WALK OR SLITHER without thinking you had 'the last word', on the 'content' of your last post.
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