Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

Hmm · Sep 24, 2021

Albion said:
"LONE VOICE"= St. Augustine. (Not you.)

The pro-universalism POV as argued on this thread has more than once tried to show how strong its case allegedly is by citing one Early Church Father (and one who wasn't very "early" at that).

If he is the lone voice from the first half-millennium who can be cited in defense of this theory, it isn't very strong as evidence.

See this list from #52:

"The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible."
— Ilaria Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.

ozso · Sep 24, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
According to the scriptures it is the many that are called but only the few that are chosen *Matthew 22:14. An appeal to orthodoxy or generally accepted theory, doctrine, or practice does not necessarily relate to what is true and what is not true. In the days of Jesus His teachings were generally considered by the religious teachers of the day as being unorthodox while His teachings were generally against what was considered the accepted theories and doctrines and traditions of His day *Matthew 15:2-9. So to appeal to what the majority believes and teaches is not always an appeal to what is right and true. In the days of Jesus the orthodox teachers of the day called Him of the devil and His followers a cult *John 10:20-25; Acts of the Apostles 28:22. Therefore the only standard of truth according to the scriptures is the Word of God *John 17:17 as we are guided by His Spirit *John 16:13. It is the Word of God therefore witnessed by the Spirit of truth that bears witness to the Word of truth that is the only standard of what is true and what is not true. This is a revelation from God to those who believe and follow Gods' Word and seek Him for it *John 8:31-36; John 14:26. If we neglect Gods' Word therefore we put out the lamp that lights the way when the road is dark and narrow *Psalms 119:105; Matthew 7:13-14. There is nothing new under the sun according to the scriptures. The thing that has been is the thing that will be again but what does this even mean *Ecclesiastes 1:9? The many therefore will never know until it is too late according to the scriptures *Matthew 7:21-23.

Take Care.

That sort of spiel could be used by most anyone who's into any unorthodox beliefs. Probably even by those who belong to cults.

ozso · Sep 24, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
God gives both incentives for motivating people to repent, both His love and His wrath. Perhaps some need different incentives for motivation.

I think a big difference for me is my relationship with the Lord was formed in early childhood.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 24, 2021

MMXX said:
That sort of spiel could be used by most anyone who's into any unorthodox beliefs. Probably even by those who belong to cults.

Does not make what I said to you not true now does it, and if I told you the truth what is there not to believe?

ozso · Sep 24, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Does not make what I said to you not true now does it.

Ditto.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 24, 2021

MMXX said:
Ditto.

Ditto what? You have provided no scripture for your teachings only your words denying the scriptures shared with you claiming unorthodox heresy making an appeal to orthodoxy without scripture claiming because the majority do not believe therefore it cannot be true. This is what the religious leaders of the day did to Jesus and the Apostles rejecting Gods' Word and putting them to death to seek to silence the Word of God.

Hmm · Sep 24, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Does not make what I said to you not true now does it, and if I told you the truth what is there not to believe?

For me, that would be not believing that what you told me was the truth.

ozso · Sep 24, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Ditto what? You have provided no scripture for your teachings.

Ditto to; "does not make what I said to you not true now does it".

Also while I offer my personal take on things, I don't teach.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 24, 2021

MMXX said:
Ditto to; "does not make what I said to you not true now does it". Also while I offer my personal take on things, I don't teach.

I think you missed the point. You have provided no scripture for your teachings only your words denying the scriptures shared with you claiming unorthodox heresy making an appeal to orthodoxy without scripture claiming because the majority do not believe therefore it cannot be true. This is what the religious leaders of the day did to Jesus and the Apostles rejecting Gods' Word and putting them to death to seek to silence the Word of God. So what is it in your words denying the scriptures shared with you that you believe is true? Everyone has a personal take on things. This does not make our personal take on things true. It is only the scriptures (Gods Word) that defines what truth is.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 24, 2021

Hmm said:
For me, that would be not believing that what you told me was the truth.

We were talking about post # 315 linked. What is it that was posted there that you do not believe?

ozso · Sep 24, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
I think you missed the point. You have provided no scripture for your teachings...

I guess you missed the part where I said, "while I offer my personal take on things, I don't teach".

LoveGodsWord said:
only your words denying the scriptures shared with you claiming unorthodox heresy making an appeal to orthodoxy without scripture claiming because the majority do not believe therefore it cannot be true. This is what the religious leaders of the day did to Jesus and the Apostles rejecting Gods' Word and putting them to death to seek to silence the Word of God.

I just said that annellationism and universalism are unorthodox. You teach other unorthodox things as well, but those are off topic. The rest of what you said above, is what anyone with an unorthodox or false belief/teaching could/would say. I know that because I've heard it before, almost word for word. It's like a textbook defense.

Hmm · Sep 24, 2021

Edited. This is a reply to @LoveGodsWord.

No-one is disagreeing with you here when you say things like the truth is God's Word as you do in that post. The problem is is when you then go on to identify this truth with your own, limited understanding of it. And everyone's understanding is limited, so I'm not being personal. No-one can apprehend the truth directly, we can only approach it indirectly by means of interpretation and that is, by definition, not identical with the truth. It may be the exact opposite even.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 24, 2021

MMXX said:
I guess you missed the part where I said, "while I offer my personal take on things, I don't teach". I just said that annellationism and universalism are unorthodox. You teach other unorthodox things as well, but those are off topic. The rest of what you said above, is what anyone with an unorthodox or false belief/teaching could/would say. I know that because I've heard it before, almost word for word. It's like a textbook defense.

All I hear is more of your words denying the scriptures shared with you without showing why you disagree. If you do not want to address the posts and scriptures shared with you of course you do not have to if you do not want to.

Take Care.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 24, 2021

Hmm said:
Edited. This is a reply to @LoveGodsWord. No-one is disagreeing with you here when you say things like the truth is God's Word as you do in that post. The problem is is when you then go on to identify this truth with your own, limited understanding of it. And everyone's understanding is limited, so I'm not being personal. No-one can apprehend the truth directly, we can only approach it indirectly by means of interpretation and that is, by definition, not identical with the truth. It may be the exact opposite even.

Knowing the truth is God's promise to those who seek Him for it. These are they who have been born again to walk in His Spirit according to Gods' new covenant promises. The bible is not a normal book it is the living Words of God revealed to all those who believe and follow what Gods Word says.

Hmm · Sep 24, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Knowing the truth is God's promise to those who seek Him for it. These are they who have been born again to walk in His Spirit according to Gods' new covenant promises. The bible is not a normal book it is the living Words of God revealed to all those who believe and follow what Gods Word says.

And this includes you I presume. But you see the difficulty here: what would you say if I said just as insistently that it includes me? (I wouldn't be so arrogant as to say that btw)

LoveGodsWord · Sep 24, 2021

Hmm said:
And this includes you I presume. But you see the difficulty here: what would you say if I said just as insistently that it includes me? (I wouldn't be so arrogant as to say that btw)

The scripture teach you shall know them by their fruits. That is, who is from God and who is not from God. What do they teach and what do they do. There is only one test to know if someone is from God or not from God and that is the Word of God. We should not be afraid therefore to bring everything that we believe to the light of God's Word as it is here the darkness disappears but according to Jesus everyone who does not love the light seeks to talk about anything else except the light. According to Jesus it is because men love darkness rather then light because their deeds are evil and neither will they come to the light lest their deeds be reproved but he that does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Do you know these scriptures dear friend? If you do what do you think they mean?

ozso · Sep 24, 2021

Hmm said:
And this includes you I presume. But you see the difficulty here: what would you say if I said just as insistently that it includes me? (I wouldn't be so arrogant as to say that btw)

The more someone proclaims they are the one with the truth, the less inclined I am to believe what they have to say about it. I've found the comeback is often to put themselves in the role of Christ, and anyone else (which is usually most everyone) who disagrees with them in the role of the Pharisees.

Hmm · Sep 24, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
The scripture teach you shall know them by their fruits. That is, who is from God and who is not from God. What do they teach and what do they do. There is only one test to know if someone is from God or not from God and that is the Word of God. We should not be afraid therefore to bring everything that we believe to the light of God's Word as it is here the darkness disappears but according to Jesus everyone who does not love the light seeks to talk about anything else except the light. According to Jesus it is because men love darkness rather then light because their deeds are evil and neither will they come to the light lest their deeds be reproved but he that does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Do you know these scriptures dear friend? If you do what do you think they mean?

I think the more immediate concern is to realise that they need to be read in conjunction with the rest of the Bible, such as this verse, and that we have humility:

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1 Corinthians 13:12

LoveGodsWord · Sep 24, 2021

Hmm said:
I think the more immediate concern is to realise that they need to be read in conjunction with the rest of the Bible, such as this verse, and that we have humility:

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1 Corinthians 13:12

Was not responsive addressing the post you are quoting from. It is ok you do not have to answer it if you do not want to. I gather you understood what was being posted and proved my point anyway with your response.

ozso · Sep 24, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
The scripture teach you shall know them by their fruits. That is, who is from God and who is not from God. What do they teach and what do they do. There is only one test to know if someone is from God or not from God and that is the Word of God. We should not be afraid therefore to bring everything that we believe to the light of God's Word as it is here the darkness disappears but according to Jesus everyone who does not love the light seeks to talk about anything else except the light. According to Jesus it is because men love darkness rather then light because their deeds are evil and neither will they come to the light lest their deeds be reproved but he that does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Do you know these scriptures dear friend? If you do what do you think they mean?

And everyone is in the dark except you and your ilk of course.

This is off topic. Let's get back to, "Christian Universalism. What's not to like?" shall we?

Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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