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Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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Fervent

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You're not understanding what I'm saying. If you want to make yourself out to be smarter and better educated, you should avoid that. As for all your posturing, I know of Greek Orthodox PhD's who hold the UR view of that and other verses.
I make no attempt to make myself out to be smarter or better educated, my argument stands or falls on its own. The fact that you are, as Der Alte so elegantly put it, making ad hominems at this point rather than addressing the argument at hand is quite telling. If you understand it, refute it. Otherwise you're just blowing smoke to preserve your preferred view.
 
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ozso

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Please, DA is like the king of ad hominems. And your snarky "since adjective seems too complicated for you" is as ad hominem as it gets.
 
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Major1

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But if it's something like; "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive" then it's time to do brain surgery?

MMXX.....are you purposefully being deceitful or to you really just not know the Bible that well?????

The Bible teaches us that Adam also means “man” or “ human being”. When Adam sinned he died spiritually since death is the wages of sin, and if a person dies spiritually he must also die physically – a living soul must continue to have a body to live in.

Adam dies spiritually when he sinned but he lived physically another 960 years and then he dies physically.

In Romans 5 Paul teaches us about a spiritual death, a separation from God when a person sins. It’s about condemnation and justification, and the condemnation is referring to spiritual death, not physical, for those who are justified still die physically. Notice that death spread to all men (not sin), and that the reason for this is because they sinned (and not because Adam sinned on their part).

Rom. 5:12.......
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned."

The only way you do not grasp this is because YOU DO NOT want to!.
 
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Fervent

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Please, DA is like the king of ad hominems. And your snarky "since adjective seems too complicated for you" is as ad hominem as it gets.
No, my condescension was not an ad hominem. There was no argument presented that it was directed at. Ad hominem is specifically related to responding to an argument, not just insulting someone. I have presented a grammatical argument that does exactly what grammar is good for, eliminating a possible interpretation when there are multiple possibilities. That you now want to simply camp on your interpretation rather than provide some kind of defense instead trying to argue that I am simply making things too complicated by parsing the clauses is essentially the definition of an ad hominem.
 
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Major1

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In other words, no further thought should be put into it.

That is exactly what I have been saying!

God said it.....that ends it whether you believe it or not.
 
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Major1

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Doesn't everything belong to He who made it?

YES.

Colossians 1:16.......
"For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him."

We are ALL children of God because we are born human beings.

We are then made Born again by the 2nd Birth which make us acceptable to God.

Jesus Christ came to provide peace with God. Faith in the prophesied Prince of Peace is the only way for us as sinners to be at peace with God (Rom 5:1).

The resurrection of Christ ensures spiritual life for all who believe. Light and life to all He brings, ris’n with healing in His wings. Consider Romans 6:4.

God regenerates sinners by means of the new birth. Born to raise the sons of earth, born to give them second birth. The Scriptures are clear that God is the Author of the new birth. The Holy Spirit, by means of the Word of God, is responsible for the regeneration of lost, spiritually dead souls (See, for example, John 3:8 and 1 Pet 1:23).
 
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Major1

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The present is not the past. I know it's tense, but why do you insult us?

WHY in the world do you "Hell No" people keep saying that you are being insulted??????

In post #2836 YOU said................
Lazarus Short said:
"You have proved that that is not the case either." Explain, please.

As for reading the Bible, I maintain that to believe what it really says, you must read it without a theological filter. I thank God for my atheist years, for when I did become a Christian, I was able to read the Bible without presuppositions.

To which HMM replied............
"That's my story too, thank goodness."

TWO people (2) admitted to being ATHIESTS and all I did was say,,,,,,,
"There are a lot of admitted ATHIESTS on this site".

Now please explain how in the world repeating WHAT YOU SAID about yourself is an insult??????
 
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ozso

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That is exactly what I have been saying!

God said it.....that ends it whether you believe it or not.

Can that also be said regarding all the doctrines and theologies you disagree with, or does it only apply to the ones you hold to?
 
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ozso

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Any personal remarks are ad hominem (to the man). See? I too know some Greek
 
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Der Alte

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Naive, indeed. This is a text book example of out-of-context proof texting. News flash. There ain't no nations or families in the grave or hades, only dead individuals who must have "decided to follow Jesus" in this life to be included among the saved.
"so that he may have mercy on them all" the single word translated "may have mercy" is in the subjunctive case, which is the case of probability or potentiality. The stated action may or may not occur. Quoted out-of-context it might appear that it is a done deal but when Paul wrote vs. 32 did he forget what he wrote a few verses earlier. Note,
Romans 11:22-23
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. [note: this is not a subjunctive statement. DA]
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Romans 11:32
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy [subjunctive. DA] upon all.​
Sometimes we need to put aside our preconceptions and simply listen to what the Bible is saying rather than trying to explain it away all the time with pseudo-scholarship.
Right back at you. Some day you will have to explain to the only one who matters why you rejected everything that contradicts your UR assumptions/presuppositions as "pseudo-scholarship."
Scholars don't just make up "rules of grammar" they observe and catalog them. Try reading some real scholarship, as opposed to pseudo UR scholarship, where scholars translating other non-Biblical ancient documents observe similar rules of grammar. See e.g. an example of simple observation.
2 Peter 1:1
1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ [θεου ημων και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου ] have received a faith as precious as ours:
2 Peter 1:11
11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.[του κυριου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου]​
The phrases θεου ημων και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου vs. 1 and του κυριου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου vs. 11 have the same grammatical structure. What must we conclude from that?
Here is a link to a study of one word, harpagmos, which occurs only one time in the NT, Philp 2:6 translated "robbery.". This is what real scholars do. They don't scour the internet looking for something, by someone, somewhere which supports their assumptions/presuppositions.
THE HARPAGMOS ENIGMA:
Until ca. 1972 no other occurrence of the word had ever been found so the meaning was doubtful. Then,
The Thesaurus Linguae Graecae® (TLG®) is a research program at the University of California, Irvine. Founded in 1972 the TLG has collected and digitized most literary texts written in Greek from Homer to the fall of Byzantium in AD 1453. Its goal is to create a comprehensive digital library of Greek literature from antiquity to the present era.​
The TLG database permits scholars to review almost instantly virtually every occurrence of a questioned word or phrase, grammatical construction etc. in known Greek literature. This is your pseudo scholarship. Now my cards are on the table. Show me your hand.
 
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ozso

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WHY in the world do you "Hell No" people keep saying that you are being insulted??????

What about the Hell Yes people complaining about ad hominemz?

But seriously Major1, you don't seem to grasp what's insulting.
 
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Lazarus Short

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If the wages of sin were hell, I'm fairly certain the Genesis account would have said so. But no, the wages are only death. Later, Paul's letter to the Romans states, "For he that is dead is freed from sin." [Romans 6:7, KJV]

The conclusion should be obvious...but wait, I can see it coming: context, context, context.
 
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ozso

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That's why the correct translation of "hell" is Sheol.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Alright, here is my answer: We BOTH implied/admitted that we are ex-athiests. You jumped the gun by stating or implying that we are atheists presently. I find that insulting. Would you not find it so, if you were on the receiving end?
 
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Lazarus Short

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In post #2836 YOU said................
Lazarus Short said:
"You have proved that that is not the case either." Explain, please.

No explanation is forthcoming as yet. I will let the matter drop.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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Physician heal thyself. IOW follow your own advice! When the words of the NT writers appear to conflict with the very words of Jesus, Himself, how do you resolve the apparent contradiction?
We who believe that when Jesus said "eternal punishment," that is exactly what He meant also believe that Jesus, is Lord and Savior not Matthew, Mark, Luke, John etc. If there is an apparent contradiction I will always choose to interpret the disciples to agree with Jesus NOT the wrong way around.
Jesus taught e.g.,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..In re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,
“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​
…..Jesus opposed the Jewish leaders many times, He undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jewish teaching, about hell, was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc?
Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed,
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17). Judith, CHAPTER 16 | USCCB
which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs in “hell”?
 
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Major1

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Der Alte

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Logical fallacy, argument from silence. The absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence.
Was Jesus lying when He said "hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die," "eternal punishment" etc? Genesis says nothing about that place. Jesus also mentioned "Hades" where a rich man was being tormented "in flames," I don't recall reading about that in Genesis, either.
Rom. 6:7 another out-of-context proof text. Was Paul lying when he also said,
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall [not] inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesian 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath [not] any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​
None of these passages state or imply that the unrighteous people will eventually enter the kingdom.
 
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Major1

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Alright, here is my answer: We BOTH implied/admitted that we are ex-athiests. You jumped the gun by stating or implying that we are atheists presently. I find that insulting. Would you not find it so, if you were on the receiving end?

That is simply not true......and YOU KNOW THAT!

I jumped NOTHING!!!!
I only accepted WHAT YOU SAID to be true!

It seems to me that you "Hell NO" supporters have really thin skin and YOU are looking for something or someone to blame for your conviction and IMHO because YOU know that deep down in your heart your theology is not Biblical.
 
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Major1

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See.........you already KNOW that your post was disingenuous!

Your commensts and questions make me feel like I am teaching in my teenager's class in church.

There was no death prior to the Fall of Man…:

“But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and blessing and calamity you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Genesis‬ 2:17‬ ........
"…and there was no sin in man until then".

Romans 5:12........
“Therefore, as sin came into the world through one man, and death as the result of sin, so death spread to all men, [no one being able to stop it or to escape its power] because all men sinned.”‬‬

The Bible says that your actions (sin) can lead to death, and your intentions and motives (heart and spirit) will lead to Hell. It makes a clear distinction between the two so that Man recognizes who the only real judge can be, namely, God, the only one of the two who can read the heart and mind of a Man. When God intended to set Man to be about a sinless life, He also set out to preempt any usurping of His authority on what that might look like for anyone undertaking that journey at any given point in time.

Romans 2 tells us that.......
“Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things."

You and ME are as guilty of sin as anybody you can point to.

But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

If you say otherwise, God will set out to prove otherwise.

Any effort to segregate sin from your life that doesn't involve acknowledgement of yourself as a sinner followed by works of repentance will bring judgment against you.

"Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"

God’s grace is for all because all need it; if you say otherwise, you're rejecting the gift of grace, and are contradicting God's judgment.

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart and rejection of Christ, treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God.

By contradicting God on this central matter, nothing you do for the rest of your life will benefit you in the way it should. Sin makes everyone's heart hard and stubborn; only repentance softens it.

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."
 
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