Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

Lazarus Short · Nov 22, 2021

Major1 said:
As I understand the Scriptures, that is correct.

Those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination as recorded in the Bible.

You call the LoF a final destination, but the Bible does not. Learn to see what you read.

Major1 · Nov 22, 2021

Lazarus Short said:
No? But you said this: "If God says that the lost will be tormented in the Lake of Fire eternally then that ends the conversation."

Correct. And what part of that do you not grasp my friend???

Rev. 20:10......
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Just for you......The book of the Revelation was written in "PROLEPTIC" Language of the Greek.

n other words, simplly said.....John wrote what he was given to see by God as if it had aleady taken place.

Major1 · Nov 22, 2021

Lazarus Short said:
You call the LoF a final destination, but the Bible does not. Learn to see what you read.

What part is not clear for you.

Revelation 20:13-15 ..
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 ....
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Major1 · Nov 22, 2021

MMXX said:
Yeah, it's pretty much been you accusing them, and them accusing you, of "false teaching".

Not so.

I have been accused of "Stickley adhering to the words of the Bible LITERALLY".

I have accused those who change the Scriptures as "False teachers".

I stand by that comment which again is supported by about 100 Bible Scriptures.

Major1 · Nov 22, 2021

MMXX said:
I meant side doctrines, like OSAS.

OK.

But I do think personally that OSAS is a major Bible doctrine.

John 10:27-28
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER PERISH; NEITHER SHALL ANYONE snatch them out of My hand.”

John 3:14-18
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM should NOT PERISH, but have ETERNAL LIFE. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM should NOT PERISH, but have EVERLASTING LIFE. For God sent NOT his Son into the world TO CONDEMN the world; but that the world THROUGH HIM might be saved. He that BELIEVETH ON HIM is NOT CONDEMNED: but he that BELIEVETH NOT is condemned already, because he hath NOT BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

ozso · Nov 22, 2021

Major1 said:
What a blessing that would be for me!

I do not mind debate or discussion with intelligent and civil people such as yourself, however, redundant posts about opinions is not good for anyone.

To be quite honest I haven't seen a whole lot of civility in your posts. You've basically been calling me and others stupid and ignorant along with making all kinds of judgmental accusations against us as Christians.

Lazarus Short · Nov 22, 2021

Major1 said:
Correct. And what part of that do you not grasp my friend???

Rev. 20:10......
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Just for you......The book of the Revelation was written in "PROLEPTIC" Language of the Greek.

n other words, simplly said.....John wrote what he was given to see by God as if it had aleady taken place.

Clearly, I grasp this, that the three persons mentioned in verse ten are the only ones who get "for ever and ever." This is NOT repeated for the mass of the "lost."

Please explain "proleptic," as I have never encountered the word before.

ozso · Nov 22, 2021

Major1 said:
Not so.

I have been accused of "Stickley adhering to the words of the Bible LITERALLY".

I have accused those who change the Scriptures as "False teachers".

I stand by that comment which again is supported by about 100 Bible Scriptures.

Did you know that Gregory of Nyssa was basically a UR proponent? And not only was he never called a false teacher, he's known as the father of church fathers.

Major1 · Nov 22, 2021

MMXX said:
To be quite honest I haven't seen a whole lot of civility in your posts. You've basically been calling me and others stupid and ignorant along with making all kinds of judgmental accusations against us as Christians.

Well......my friend, saying that someone believes what men say instead of what the Bible says on a Christian forum in a nice way is not uncivil.

In fact...that is exactly what the Bible tells us to do.

Matthew 16:6, .....
“Watch and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

Romans 16:17, ......
“Watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; ”

Major1 · Nov 22, 2021

MMXX said:
Did you know that Gregory of Nyssa was basically a UR proponent? And not only was he never called a false teacher, he's known as the father of church fathers.

Then in that respect he was in error of the Scriptures wasn.t he as there is no such thing in the Bible as Universal Slavation.

John 14:6........
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father,

John 3:16....
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life

Der Alte · Nov 22, 2021

Major1 said:
* * * *

Major1 said:
K.
But I do think personally that OSAS is a major Bible doctrine.
John 10:27-28
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them and they follow Me. And I give them eternal ["aionios"]life, and they shall NEVER PERISH; NEITHER SHALL ANYONE snatch them out of My hand.”

Some folks argue that "aionios" never means "eternal" but in this verse Jesus, defines/describes "aionios" twice as "eternal." Jesus juxtaposes "aionios" with "shall never perish" and "neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand."

Major1 said:
John 3:14-18
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM should NOT PERISH, but have ETERNAL LIFE. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM should NOT PERISH, but have EVERLASTING LIFE. For God sent NOT his Son into the world TO CONDEMN the world; but that the world THROUGH HIM might be saved. He that BELIEVETH ON HIM is NOT CONDEMNED: but he that BELIEVETH NOT is condemned already, because he hath NOT BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

In this passage Jesus defines "aionios" as eternal by juxtaposing "aionios life" with "shall not perish." twice.
Jesus said "he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Jesus did not say that "he that believeth not will be saved anyway."

ozso · Nov 22, 2021

Major1 said:
Then in that respect he was in error of the Scriptures wasn.t he as there is no such thing in the Bible as Universal Slavation.

John 14:6........
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father,

John 3:16....
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life

Neither one of those verses go against UR. As matter of fact those verses are used as UR proof texts. Someone who's written papers and booklets about UR should know that.

Der Alte · Nov 22, 2021

Lazarus Short said:
Clearly, I grasp this, that the three persons mentioned in verse ten are the only ones who get "for ever and ever." This is NOT repeated for the mass of the "lost."
Please explain "proleptic," as I have never encountered the word before.

I just typed the word Proleptic in Google, and it gave me this definition, "the foreshadowing, or anticipation, of future events."

Major1 · Nov 22, 2021

Lazarus Short said:
Clearly, I grasp this, that the three persons mentioned in verse ten are the only ones who get "for ever and ever." This is NOT repeated for the mass of the "lost."

Please explain "proleptic," as I have never encountered the word before.

I DID!

It was John's method of saying what he saw in his vision as if it had already taken place.

A. Prophetic Language:
The figurative, spiritual, and typical nature of prophetic language lays the ground work for a discussion of the coming kingdom foreseen and declared beforehand in the Old Testament scriptures.

B. New Testament:
The New Testament employs many of these Old Testament prophecies to lay the groundwork for understanding and interpreting the nature and time of the kingdom and the messianic rule.

C. End Time:
The New Testament, finally, sees the kingdom and rule of the first century as the fulfillment and consummation of what God planned before the foundations of the world. There is no anticipation of something else or more than what Jesus inaugurated and fulfilled through the cross in the new covenant.

I hope this helps you.

Major1 · Nov 22, 2021

MMXX said:
Neither one of those verses go against UR. As matter of fact those verses are used as UR proof texts. Someone who's written papers and booklets about UR should know that.

I do know that.

The focus is on....."THOSE WHO BELIEVE"!.

Universalism says ALL will be saved in the end no matter what. The Bible says ONLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN CHRIST WILL BE SAVED.

A dead man can not believe upon Jesus Christ.

Major1 · Nov 22, 2021

Der Alte said:
I just typed the word Proleptic in Google, and it gave me this definition, "the foreshadowing, or anticipation, of future events."

It is just not that hard is it my brother??

Lazarus Short · Nov 22, 2021

Major1 said:
What part is not clear for you.

Revelation 20:13-15 ..
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 ....
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Remember that I interpret those verses thru the "no-hell, everybody saved" clues that I first began to notice in Genesis 1:1 and onward. I would need scores of pages to explain it all fully to you, and my manuscript runs to over 240 pages. However, I have no doubt that if I did so, you would reject it out of hand.

So, I remind myself of this:

What the informant said to Franz Boas in 1920

long ago her mother
had to sing this song and so
she had to grind along with it
the corn people have a song too
it is very good
I refuse to tell it

[from "Shaking the Pumpkin" edited by Jerome Rothenberg, page 3]

ozso · Nov 22, 2021

Major1 said:
Well......my friend, saying that someone believes what men say instead of what the Bible says on a Christian forum in a nice way is not uncivil.

Yeah, but you haven't been doing it in a nice way for the most part that I've seen. And what men have they quoted? I don't recall them quoting anything outside of scripture.

Major1 said:
In fact...that is exactly what the Bible tells us to do.

Matthew 16:6, .....
“Watch and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees."

Romans 16:17, ......
“Watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; ”

Neither of those verses says that it's okay for you to trash others.

Lazarus Short · Nov 22, 2021

Major1 said:
Well......my friend, saying that someone believes what men say instead of what the Bible says on a Christian forum in a nice way is not uncivil.

In fact...that is exactly what the Bible tells us to do.

Matthew 16:6, .....
“Watch and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

Romans 16:17, ......
“Watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; ”

First, I am neither a Pharisee nor a Sadducee.

Second, I adhere to the doctrine that the Bible taught me, using my God-given common sense and curiosity. We are instructed to be workmen with the Word, and to rightly divide it, not just to accept and affirm what our religious authorities offer. Do you not remember the praise given to the Bereans?

ozso · Nov 22, 2021

Major1 said:
I do know that.

The focus is on....."THOSE WHO BELIEVE"!.

Universalism says ALL will be saved in the end no matter what. The Bible says ONLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN CHRIST WILL BE SAVED.

A dead man can not believe upon Jesus Christ.

So are you teaching that only believers souls will exist in the afterlife? If not, then there's no such thing as a dead man in that respect.

Funny thing how the rich man was able to ask Abraham for mercy considering he was dead eh?

Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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