Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

Major1 said:

To repeat my 1st post to you..........YOU are wasting your time posting your Universal idea to me.

Others may like what you say but I am not one of them.

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Steve Gregg isn't a universalist. He's just giving a lecture on the three Christian views of hell. He's a very accomplished and well respected Bible teacher. You can learn more about him here: The Narrow Path | Home Or are you afraid to learn more about what you're fighting against?

Major1 said:

As I have said many times.....the only way to make Universalism acceptable is to change the meaning of Scriptures.

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Funny, that's what many say about Calvinism.

Major1 said:

Just as you just did.

Please do the google search OR do a Bible study and you will see that Jesus was speaking about the "Judgement of the Nations" after Armageddon. It is the conclusion of Christs prophetic discourse.
He speaks of a judgment of separation.

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So in this instance you're saying what Jesus said isn't what it sounds like He's saying, even though He's speaking very clearly.

MMXX said:

Funny, that's what many say about Calvinism.



So in this instance you're saying what Jesus said isn't what it sounds like He's saying, even though He's speaking very clearly.

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AS i have sated several times.....I agree with you about Calvinism and I am not a proponent of Calvinism.

MMXX said:

Steve Gregg isn't a universalist. He's just giving a lecture on the three Christian views of hell. He's a very accomplished and well respected Bible teacher. You can learn more about him here: The Narrow Path | Home Or are you afraid to learn more about what you're fighting against?

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No sir. Fear is not something I have.

After going through 2 wars and its horrors, ..... cancer, and 2 knee replacements and back surgery, fear was left behind a long time ago.

I actually know what I am speaking about......more than I am willing to post here.

There is only ONE valid view of hell my friend and that is the one God told us about in the Bible. Everything else is simply a manufactured opinion from the minds of those who do not accept what God said.

MMXX said:

Which is what many Christians say about some your views which you listed. Check out some of the threads in the soteriology section about OSAS for starters.

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Nothing whatsoever surprises me that is said from those who reject the word of God.

You will not find one single thing I have said which I did not back up with Scripture from the word of God.

Hmm said:

What is it about universal redemption that annoys so many Christians? Shouldn’t we be happy that God’s love and mercy are wider, higher, deeper, and broader than we could ever imagine? We all sin at times so shouldn't we welcome the thought that God is not going to annihilate or eternally torment us if we don't “accept,” “trust,” “repent,” “believe,” well enough to appropriate the grace of God?

You would think so but it seems from the recent threads on Christian Universalism that this is not the case. Why is this?

Here are some of the reasons that have been expressed in the threads:

1. ”If everyone is or will be saved, what’s the point in following Jesus?”

To me, anyone who thinks this must see following Jesus as a heavy burden, one that needs the reward of heaven to make it worth the hassle. But shouldn't following Jesus and having a good relationship with him here and now be its own reward?

It's also a misunderstanding of Christian Universalism to think it says that we don't have to receive the saving grace of Christ in order to be reconciled to God and to each other. It just says that if we don't manage to do this in this life there will be boundless opportunities to do so in the next one and that eventually every one will accept forgiveness and repent of their sins... ”that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth" (Phil 2:10)

2. "All my hard work at being a Christian has been undermined".
This is very much like 1. Shouldn't any work we do be done out of love for God, not for any personal eternal rewards?

3. ”If there is an 'us,' there has to be a 'them'"
This may be true about some things such as football: I support Manchester United so I hate Manchester City (I'm from the UK, apologies) but it needn't apply to matters of faith. If we are going to heaven when we die there doesn't have to be a group who go to hell.

These three reasons seem to have something in common and that's judgementalism. They're all essentially saying "Look, I'm a good Christian and my hard work and sacrifices has earned me membership into the very exclusive club of heaven and, sad to say it, but most other people haven't done anywhere nearly as enough as me and so, unfortunately, missed out on the opportunity." This makes you think of the work vs. faith debate ironically but, moving swiftly on from that, isn't it true that being judgemental is wrong and if that's the main reason behind our objection to Christian Universalism, shouldn't we consider that we might be misunderstanding it?

There are biblical arguments that can be made for and against Christian Universalism but there are plenty of existing threads discussing that so, assuming anyone wants to respond!, I'd be more interested in hearing what your gut, visceral reaction is, whether for or against, when you hear the words "Christian Universalism". For me, it's basically relief that God is a loving God and not a monster after all.

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But what did our Lord JESUS Christ say about His eternal Kingdom, the Kingdom of GOD? Well. JESUS is GOD, understand? JESUS is the Word made flesh. The Word is GOD, understand? Hebrews 1:v.1-3 and 8:
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days (in these last TWO Days or last 2.000 years) spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed HEIR of ALL things, by whom also GOD made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding ALL things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

8 Unto the Son he-God the Father-saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Matthew 25:v.31 to 46
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, ... then shall he sit upon the throne of His glory:

32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye CURSED, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his messengers:

What JESUS said above will fulfill LITERALLY in this current Day, the third Day after He had been sent by the Father to preach the Gospel of GOD's kingdom, which will be established from now on, day by day, in this seventh and last Day, the LORD's Day, or seventh and last millennium, the millennium of Christ, the millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ, and the millennium of Vengeance.

Don't you know?We are in the beginning of the FIRST century of the seventh and last millennium.

Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? Luke 18:v.8 combined with 1Tim.4:v.1-2, and 2Tim.4:v.3-4 among others.

Be careful or GET READY

Based in the Word of God, the source of the truth, on God's six Days of creation and one Day of rest (a total of seven days) plus the Scriptures that teach that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years(Psalm 90:v.4; 2Pet.3:v.8; Heb.4:v.4), so MANKIND would go through six God Days of 1,000 years each (a total of 6,000 years) plus a Millennium of 1,000 years rest (now a total of 7,000 years).
In accord biblical Chronology, we can number our days, beginning in Genesis chapter 5, as follow:
Adam lived …......................................................130 yrs and begat Seth
Seth lived …………………………………………………...............105 yrs and begat Enosh;
Enosh lived .........................................................90 yrs and begat Kenan;
Kenan lived..........................................................70 yrs and begat Mahalalel;
Mahalalel lived .....................................................65 yrs and begat Jared;
Jared lived .........................................................162 yrs and begat Enoch;
Enoch lived ......................................................... 65 yrs and begat Methuselah;
Methuselah lived................................................ .187 yrs and begat Lamech;
Lamech lived ......................................................182 yrs and begat Noah;
From Noah´s birth until the Flood...........................600 yrs.
Total of years from Adam to the Flood =................1,656 yrs.
I work with the Word of God. Notice that the table above is proved by the Word of God, it is not of human theories or human speculations. Let us study the times until our days not by human theories and speculations, but by the Word of God. So, see the table below:

PERIODS OF BIBLICAL TIMES ---------------------- DURATION
I - From Adam to the Flood--------------------------1,656 years (as was showed above)
II - From the Flood to Abraham-----------------------.427 years
III - From Abraham to Exodus-------------------------430 years-Gal.3:17
IV - From Exodus to king Saul ----------------------- 396 years
V - From Saul to the fall of Jerusalem --------------. 508 years
VI - From the fall of Jerusalem to Jesus ------------. 587 years
Thus, from Adam to the 1st coming of Jesus ------4,004 years
From Jesus to our days (Christian Calendar)-----. 2,021 years
Total from Adam to our days -----------------------6.025 years

JESUS-the Greater Light, Genesis 1:v.16-came in the fourth Day or around 4,000 years after GOD has started His works of restitution of all things-Genesis 1. From JESUS (fourth Day) until our days, have passed more TWO DAYS or 2,000 years (one Day with the Lord is as a thousand years), totaling 6 complete Days or six complete millenniums,or around 6.000 years, more precisely 6,025 years, according Christian Calendar pointing the year 2.021.

So, we have entered in the beginning of the first century of the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last Day, the Lord's Day, the Millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Truth, the Millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Millennium of Vengeance.

The world of Devil is already Judged and Condemned, and now, in this seventh and last millennium, it will be punished with strong punishments, there will be only and only punishments in this last Day, the Day of the Lord, King of kings and LORD of lords.

And God Father has already entered in His rest, as He had planned in the beginning of His works, but He is not sleeping, of course, and JESUS takes over the government of the Universe. JESUS said: All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matthew 28:v.18

JESUS is now sat on His Throne, the Judgment Seat of Christ, to Judge all nations, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not His gospel, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the Glory of His Power.

Revelation 11:v.15 to 18

15 - The kingdoms of THIS WORLD (world of Devil) are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

18 - And the nations were (will be) angry, and thy wrath is come (GOD's wrath comes), and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and that GOD should give reward unto His servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear His name, small and great; and should DESTROY them which destroy the earth. It's it.

Revelation 2:v.25 to 29

25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star.

29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Major1 said:

To repeat my 1st post to you..........YOU are wasting your time posting your Universal idea to me.

Others may like what you say but I am not one of them.

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Just to be clear, I don't expect you to LIKE what I post. My hope is only that you would make an attempt to UNDERSTAND what I post.

We don't seem to be there yet. I haven't given up on you.

Major1 said:

Now Steve......where in that Scripture does it say that the lost in hell will be resurrect TO HEAVEN??????

It says that that will bow and admitt that Jesus is the Christ to the Glory of God.

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Great question. We need to look at the definition of the NT Greek. See below. Thanks. (whole-heartedly, and without reservation)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Major1 said:

Every post you make is clouded by your PERSONAL agenda...

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That saw cuts both ways, friend.
Your presuppositions proceed you. - lol

Major1 said:

DEATH SEALED THEIR OPPORTUNITY TO CHOOSE CHRIST.

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Not true. It happened before, it can happen again.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?
Answer: the realm of the dead

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also
descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
higher than all the heavens,
in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Saint Steven said:

Where is the heart of the earth?

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It might be a little strange for you what I'm going to write to answer your question: Where is the heart of the earth? First earth here is not Earth-the Planet, but Israel; so the heart of "earth" is Israel.

But JESUS was referring specifically to Jerusalem (the heart of Israel), the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Shrewd Manager said:

Forgive me, I thought you were about to cite an obscure born again Latin scholar named Platypus (aka 'the once-dead-but-now-living Platypus') in support of your position for a moment there.

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Did you feel that? Whooooosssh. Right over your head.

Major1 said:

Nothing whatsoever surprises me that is said from those who reject the word of God.

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Here we go back again to you saying rejecting your favorite doctrine means rejecting the word of God.

Major1 said:

You will not find one single thing I have said which I did not back up with Scripture from the word of God.

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That's what they all say. Those from every doctrine, theology and denomination all say that same thing.

Major1 said:

No sir. Fear is not something I have.

After going through 2 wars and its horrors, ..... cancer, and 2 knee replacements and back surgery, fear was left behind a long time ago.

I actually know what I am speaking about......more than I am willing to post here.

There is only ONE valid view of hell my friend and that is the one God told us about in the Bible. Everything else is simply a manufactured opinion from the minds of those who do not accept what God said.

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What doctrine isn't called something like "a manufactured opinion from the minds of those who do not accept what God said", by those who hold to another doctrine?

Der Alte said:

Did you feel that? Whooooosssh. Right over your head.

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Like his joke going over yours?

Major1 said:

AS i have sated several times.....I agree with you about Calvinism and I am not a proponent of Calvinism.

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That's confusing because you cited the tenants of Calvinism as your core beliefs. This is the first time I recall you stating otherwise.

MMXX said:

* * *

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MMXX said:

Here we go back again to you saying rejecting a particular doctrine is rejecting the word of God.
That's what everyone says. Those from every doctrine, theology and denomination all say that same thing.

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But...only those of us who are not UR-ites can say it and truly mean it. How many times in a discussion here does someone from the Hell no! crowd say words do not mean what they are translated as in most versions?
They say,"'Aionios' does not mean 'eternal.'" It supposedly means the nonsense phrase "age during." They take a simple adjective and turn it into a noun and a preposition.
They say "Kolasis" does not mean "punishment." it supposedly means "correction." Although the only other occurrence of "kolasis" in the NT, 1 John 4:18 says the one who has "torment"/"kolasis" is "not made perfect." No correction.
The ball is in your court. But I'm pretty sure it is game, set, match.

Oseas said:

It might be a little strange for you what I'm going to write to answer your question: Where is the heart of the earth? First earth here is not Earth-the Planet, but Israel; so the heart of "earth" is Israel.

But JESUS was referring specifically to Jerusalem (the heart of Israel), the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

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Yes, that is a little strange.
How does that relate to Jesus' prophecy about his resurrection?
The sign of Jonah. Three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Saint Steven said:

Yes, that is a little strange.
How does that relate to Jesus' prophecy about his resurrection?
The sign of Jonah. Three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

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The material things are figures of spiritual things.