Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

Hmm · Nov 21, 2021

MMXX said:
Someone who believes in universal reconciliation can be Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Pentecostal and so on. And all of their views, with the exception of UR, can be very orthodox and comply with their denomination's statement of faith. It's highly likely that most "universalists" keep it to themselves outside of anonymously posting their beliefs on the internet.

My experience of my church - the Church of England, Anglican - is that universalism is not exactly regarded as orthodox but is seen as an “established opinion" and is quite acceptable. I can't imagine any of the laity at least being booted out for believing in UR. The "hopeful" kind of universalism where you retain the belief of an eternal hell but hope that it's empty, possibly excepting the Hitler types, is probably the majority view anyway. This is not really universalism, which believes that all are eventually saved through Christ, but perhaps it's a necessary step towards it.

I've never yet heard a fire and brimstone kind of sermon. The nearest I've come to it was a sermon saying that if we ever came across the Devil we should (politely) remind him that he has already been defeated and will end up in the lake of burning sulphur forever.

Perhaps what's happened is the switch in many people's minds towards seeing salvation in terms of healing rather than as a legalistic courthouse process. I've met quite a few people in church including ministers who are open to discussing it in this way anyway.

ozso · Nov 21, 2021

Hmm said:
My experience of my church - the Church of England, Anglican - is that universalism is not exactly regarded as orthodox but is seen as an “established opinion" and is quite acceptable. I can't imagine any of the laity at least being booted out for believing in UR. The "hopeful" kind of universalism where you retain the belief of an eternal hell but hope that it's empty, possibly excepting the Hitler types, is probably the majority view anyway. This is not really universalism, which believes that all are eventually saved through Christ, but perhaps it's a necessary step towards it.

I've never yet heard a fire and brimstone kind of sermon. The nearest I've come to it was a sermon saying that if we ever came across the Devil we should (politely) remind him that he has already been defeated and will end up in the lake of burning sulphur forever.

Perhaps what's happened is the switch in many people's minds towards seeing salvation in terms of healing rather than as a legalistic courthouse process. I've met quite a few people in church including ministers who are open to discussing it in this way anyway.

I've noticed the Catholic, Orthodox and mainline Protestant (Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist etc) churches seem much more open to it, or at least to some degree of it, rather than holding to the 95% of all humanity will be tormented forever view.

Hmm · Nov 21, 2021

Perhaps that's because there's always being a universalist strand running throughout these older church's traditions right the way back to the Apostolic Fathers and to Paul, and some of their greatest theologians were universalists or, like Karl Barth, "hopeful universalists" who didn't want to adopt the label for various reasons. This is in contrast to the more modern and literalistic Protestant offshoots that don't have a very long history.

Shrewd Manager · Nov 21, 2021

Major1 said:
It is amazing how Universalists always work through "TRAP" questions.

It's not a trap question Major, but your response suggests it's a question you'd prefer not to answer. Pity, because it's actually a springboard to the glory of God.

Major1 said:
Anyway.....As followers of Jesus Christ, we all want to live a triumphant Christian life. The Bible assures us that God and His Son Jesus are Victors and that believers can share in their victories: “But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ” which is seen in 1 Corth. 15:57.

Good, so if the victory of Christ is a gift of God which those who believe can partake, then the total victory is surely the same gift partaken in by all creatures.

Major1 said:
1 John 5:4-5...........
“For everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God”.

1 John 5:1, 4 ......
"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. [4] For everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith."

When you have faith in the Christ and the word of God, you will consistently walk victoriously. The walk of faith is a daily walk with Christ, trusting and believing in his word. As you continue daily in his word studying and meditation, your faith is built and becomes stronger.

So the total victory of Christ is in believing wholeheartedly that he is the son of El Shaddai, the Almighty God, and unreservedly that nothing is beyond him. But what if you were to fall short of unmitigated faith in the divine will and power to draw all mankind to him, to confess and believe on him? Would you then err greatly, knowing neither the scriptures nor the power of God?

Shrewd Manager · Nov 21, 2021

Der Alte said:
It was not until a living Platypus was brought back from Oz was their existence acknowledged.

Forgive me, I thought you were about to cite an obscure born again Latin scholar named Platypus (aka 'the once-dead-but-now-living Platypus') in support of your position for a moment there.

Shrewd Manager · Nov 21, 2021

Der Alte said:
You sound like all those folks condemning Rittenhouse.

Not at all, he's quite a good actor.

Shrewd Manager · Nov 21, 2021

MMXX said:
Someone who believes in universal reconciliation can be Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Pentecostal and so on. And all of their views, with the exception of UR, can be very orthodox and comply with their denomination's statement of faith. It's highly likely that most "universalists" keep it to themselves outside of anonymously posting their beliefs on the internet.

Not so sure about that MMXX. The Australian Christian Churches association for example, I think the largest here, subscribes to a statement of faith that endorses today's popular tepid expression of ECT ('eternal separation'). So is UR formally heretical as per these ppl, or has 'someone' been subtly monkeying with Creed and doctrine?

4.17 The Punishment of the Wicked
We believe in the resurrection of the body. All who believe in Jesus Christ will have everlasting life in the presence of God; those who reject Him will have eternal separation from God. It is the call of all believers to proclaim the message of Jesus Christ until He returns.

ACC | Doctrinal Basis

Andrewn · Nov 21, 2021

Hmm said:
My experience of my church - the Church of England, Anglican - is that universalism is not exactly regarded as orthodox but is seen as an “established opinion" and is quite acceptable. I can't imagine any of the laity at least being booted out for believing in UR. The "hopeful" kind of universalism where you retain the belief of an eternal hell but hope that it's empty, possibly excepting the Hitler types, is probably the majority view anyway.

There are several denominations in North America with the epithet "Missionary church" in their titles. In my experience, they tend to not push any fixed set of beliefs. Also, many new churches, regardless of their denominations, call themselves "Community church" or "People's church" and they do not generally stress a certain belief system. Perhaps the Anglican churches were the first community churches as you can find there pastors and people with Calvinist and Methodist beliefs side by side. Older churches may not change their name but their seems wider acceptance of various beliefs.

Personally, I can't remember a time in my life when I did not attend at least 2 churches, on alternate Sundays. Quite frequently, these belonged to different denominations. So I can say that am interdenominational .

Saint Steven · Nov 21, 2021

Shrewd Manager said:
Not so sure about that MMXX. The Australian Christian Churches association for example, I think the largest here, subscribes to a statement of faith that endorses today's popular tepid expression of ECT ('eternal separation'). So is UR formally heretical as per these ppl, or has 'someone' been subtly monkeying with Creed and doctrine?

4.17 The Punishment of the Wicked
We believe in the resurrection of the body. All who believe in Jesus Christ will have everlasting life in the presence of God; those who reject Him will have eternal separation from God. It is the call of all believers to proclaim the message of Jesus Christ until He returns.

ACC | Doctrinal Basis

Yes, the "eternal separation from God" term is the gentler form of a forever burning hell. (as I understand it)

And actually leaves it a bit open-ended as to what that means. Be it ECT, Annihilation, or something akin to that. But it DOES specify that the separation is eternal.

HOWEVER, there is an interesting loophole left in stating it is for "those who reject Him". What about those who have NOT rejected him? UR to the rescue. - lol

Shrewd Manager · Nov 21, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Yes, the "eternal separation from God" term is the gentler form of a forever burning hell. (as I understand it)

And actually leaves it a bit open-ended as to what that means. Be it ECT, Annihilation, or something akin to that. But it DOES specify that the separation is eternal.

From what I could gather, the general interpretation is that the experience of eternal separation is conveyed by the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Saint Steven said:
HOWEVER, there is an interesting loophole left in stating it is for "those who reject Him". What about those who have NOT rejected him? UR to the rescue. - lol

True, there's a glimmer of light...it doesn't exactly say 'in this world', although I understand that's what they intend to convey.

Andrewn · Nov 21, 2021

MMXX said:
I've noticed the Catholic, Orthodox and mainline Protestant (Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist etc) churches seem much more open to it, or at least to some degree of it, rather than holding to the 95% of all humanity will be tormented forever view.

The Catholic Catechism has the following:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Saint Steven · Nov 21, 2021

Shrewd Manager said:
From what I could gather, the general interpretation is that the experience of eternal separation is conveyed by the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Hard to imagine that someone who is wailing and gnashing their teeth is not repentant. Sounds like when I got saved. - lol

Built on their "no second chance" premise, I suppose. Which doesn't work either, since countless billions never had a FIRST chance.

Hmm · Nov 21, 2021

Shrewd Manager said:
Forgive me, I thought you were about to cite an obscure born again Latin scholar named Platypus (aka 'the once-dead-but-now-living Platypus') in support of your position for a moment there.

That would have fitted the "bill" at least

ozso · Nov 21, 2021

Shrewd Manager said:
Not so sure about that MMXX. The Australian Christian Churches association for example, I think the largest here, subscribes to a statement of faith that endorses today's popular tepid expression of ECT ('eternal separation'). So is UR formally heretical as per these ppl, or has 'someone' been subtly monkeying with Creed and doctrine?

4.17 The Punishment of the Wicked
We believe in the resurrection of the body. All who believe in Jesus Christ will have everlasting life in the presence of God; those who reject Him will have eternal separation from God. It is the call of all believers to proclaim the message of Jesus Christ until He returns.

ACC | Doctrinal Basis

I was talking about on an individual basis. However personally I've tended to hear the term eternal separation more often than not by those at churches I've attended.

Major1 · Nov 21, 2021

Shrewd Manager said:
It's not a trap question Major, but your response suggests it's a question you'd prefer not to answer. Pity, because it's actually a springboard to the glory of God.

Good, so if the victory of Christ is a gift of God which those who believe can partake, then the total victory is surely the same gift partaken in by all creatures.

So the total victory of Christ is in believing wholeheartedly that he is the son of El Shaddai, the Almighty God, and unreservedly that nothing is beyond him. But what if you were to fall short of unmitigated faith in the divine will and power to draw all mankind to him, to confess and believe on him? Would you then err greatly, knowing neither the scriptures nor the power of God?

You said.......
Good, so if the victory of Christ is a gift of God which those who believe can partake, then the total victory is surely the same gift partaken in by all creatures.

NO!

John 3:16....
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Major1 · Nov 21, 2021

MMXX said:
What else was Jesus very clear on in Matthew 25:31-46? Didn't Jesus say quite clearly that if you simply perform an act of charity you will receive eternal life?

As I have said many times.....the only way to make Universalism acceptable is to change the meaning of Scriptures.

Just as you just did.

Please do the google search OR do a Bible study and you will see that Jesus was speaking about the "Judgement of the Nations" after Armageddon. It is the conclusion of Christs prophetic discourse.
He speaks of a judgment of seperation.

Major1 · Nov 21, 2021

MMXX said:
That has nothing to do with having a view of UR. UR is simply one of many eschatological views. That some folks overreact to.

Personally......I have not overreacted if you were speaking of me.

You are free to believe anything you choose to believe.

My one and only charge is that what you are believiing is not supported by the Scriptures as they are written.

Major1 · Nov 21, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I guess you haven't seen this yet.

Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg

To repeat my 1st post to you..........YOU are wasting your time posting your Universal idea to me.

Others may like what you say but I am not one of them.

Major1 · Nov 21, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Try this on for size. Note the "under the earth" in Phil.2:10 refers to the realm of the dead. (in the afterlife) Therefore mercy in the afterlife.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)

Those who are “under the earth” are those who have lived and are now dead. So, when Philippians 2:10 says that every knee shall bow, including those who are under the earth, the expression has reference to those who are dead. That those who are presently dead will one day bow to Christ means that they will be raised from the dead.

Now Steve......where in that Scripture does it say that the lost in hell will be resurrect TO HEAVEN??????

It says that that will bow and admitt that Jesus is the Christ to the Glory of God.

Jesus said in John 5:28-29......
“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”

Every post you make is clouded by your PERSONAL agenda of Universalism.

You ask....What about those who do not believe? YOU Wouldn’t they repent and believe if they were given a second chance?

The answer is no, they would not because their hearts are not changed simply because they die. Their hearts and minds “are at enmity” against God and won’t accept Him even when they see Him face to face. DEATH SEALED THEIR OPPORTUNITY TO CHOOSE CHRIST.

ozso · Nov 21, 2021

Major1 said:
Personally......I have not overreacted if you were speaking of me.

You are free to believe anything you choose to believe.

My one and only charge is that what you are believiing is not supported by the Scriptures as they are written.

Which is what many Christians say about some your views which you listed. Check out some of the threads in the soteriology section about OSAS for starters.

Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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You can call me Steve

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