Christian Socialism

[Thomas49]

Matthew 19:24
24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

As we all know, McCain/Palin and their supporters have accused Obama of being a "socialist". Given the fact that the U.S. has a mixed economy with a number of socialist features in place for many decades, I think it would be more accurate to say that Obama is just MORE inclined toward socialist-type solutions than McCain. Personally, I do not think this is a bad thing, because in my own political philosophy, I am in fact a socialist; specifically, a Christian Socialist. This means that I believe that a society inspired by the precepts of Jesus Christ should be organized along lines that are currently labeled "socialist".

I came to this position after struggling with the above Bible quote for a long time, because it stumped me, just as it shocked Jesus' disciples when he said it. "Who then can be saved?!"

According to a socialist perspective, the wealth of a society is generated by the members of that society working as a whole, not by particular individuals. Of course, some people are more talented, smarter, harder-working than others. In a sense, they contribute more, and fairness would indicate that they should therefore earn more. However, even the highest-functioning human being does not actually CREATE wealth; since wealth can only be accumulated by the cooperation of all of the members of society working together in harmony, with the raw materials CREATED BY GOD. In reality, we human beings create nothing. We are stewards of what God has created. No person is so superior and above the average that he has actually EARNED great wealth through his own honest effort. In fact, all of the money that a person "makes" that is over and above his needs, has actually been stolen from others through exploiting the rules by which a particular society apportions it's wealth. Either that, or it was inherited from someone who stole it.

Also, since humanity is divided into a number of separate nations, the members of one society can all become richer by the expedient of stealing the resources of other societies. The spoils are then divided according to the rules by which that society apportions wealth, with a higher proportion naturally flowing into the coffers of those who are already rich.

And for me, this insight solves the mystery as to why Jesus said it is next to impossible for a rich man to gain entrance to the Kingdom Of Heaven. Since their wealth has ultimately been stolen from others, rich people are therefore all guilty of violating the 8th Commandment: "Thou Shall Not Steal".

 

[YoungJoonKim]

Look....
If we ought to have a Utopia, rich people should be giving out $trillions of dollars in projects in Africa and poverty-stricken areas.
But no.
IT just points out to simple fact...we are all selfish and we want jobs before charity.

 

[HerbieHeadley]

Matthew 19:24
24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

I’m not trying to trash your thread, I have respect for the sentiment that comes across, but I wanted to ask if you ever heard of the east gate theory?
Can we talk about who Jesus was addressing in this quote?
Can we talk about what kind of riches this man had?
Can we talk about any other blessing that Jesus rebuked?
Or was his riches a blessing?

 

[joebudda]

Look....
If we ought to have a Utopia, rich people should be giving out $trillions of dollars in projects in Africa and poverty-stricken areas.
But no.
IT just points out to simple fact...we are all selfish and we want jobs before charity.

If this is true and everyone is selfish and tends to put their own self interest before others.
Then wouldn't it be against everyone's best interest to allow people to have control and power over the lives of others?

 

[nhislove]

Matthew 19:24
24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

As we all know, McCain/Palin and their supporters have accused Obama of being a "socialist". Given the fact that the U.S. has a mixed economy with a number of socialist features in place for many decades, I think it would be more accurate to say that Obama is just MORE inclined toward socialist-type solutions than McCain. Personally, I do not think this is a bad thing, because in my own political philosophy, I am in fact a socialist; specifically, a Christian Socialist. This means that I believe that a society inspired by the precepts of Jesus Christ should be organized along lines that are currently labeled "socialist".

I came to this position after struggling with the above Bible quote for a long time, because it stumped me, just as it shocked Jesus' disciples when he said it. "Who then can be saved?!"

According to a socialist perspective, the wealth of a society is generated by the members of that society working as a whole, not by particular individuals. Of course, some people are more talented, smarter, harder-working than others. In a sense, they contribute more, and fairness would indicate that they should therefore earn more. However, even the highest-functioning human being does not actually CREATE wealth; since wealth can only be accumulated by the cooperation of all of the members of society working together in harmony, with the raw materials CREATED BY GOD. In reality, we human beings create nothing. We are stewards of what God has created. No person is so superior and above the average that he has actually EARNED great wealth through his own honest effort. In fact, all of the money that a person "makes" that is over and above his needs, has actually been stolen from others through exploiting the rules by which a particular society apportions it's wealth. Either that, or it was inherited from someone who stole it.

Also, since humanity is divided into a number of separate nations, the members of one society can all become richer by the expedient of stealing the resources of other societies. The spoils are then divided according to the rules by which that society apportions wealth, with a higher proportion naturally flowing into the coffers of those who are already rich.

And for me, this insight solves the mystery as to why Jesus said it is next to impossible for a rich man to gain entrance to the Kingdom Of Heaven. Since their wealth has ultimately been stolen from others, rich people are therefore all guilty of violating the 8th Commandment: "Thou Shall Not Steal".

2 Thess. 3:10

For even when we were with you we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work he shall not eat."

 

[ephesus32]

I don't believe that just because somebody is rich that they are stealing from the poor to gain their wealth. Also, people that earned doctorate degrees should be treated the same as people that have not even earned a high school diploma. The people with the doctorate degrees toiled to get what they earned. So they should treated in like terms financially. How can you take away from people like this that earned it while others take the easy way out? Then who decides who will be a doctor in a socialist government and who will be gardener (no offense meant)? It doesn't seem like this a fair system in the first place.

 

[Thomas49]

2 Thess. 3:10

For even when we were with you we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work he shall not eat."

2 Thess. 3:10

For even when we were with you we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work he shall not eat."

This is in fact a VERY socialist principle. You are confusing socialism with the "welfare state", which is in fact what we have now. A person who is able to work, but won't because he is too selfish and lazy is not much different from the rich man who steals a lot of money from others. However, if a person is unable to work due to illness or old age, etc. we as a society are obliged to support that person.

 

[Jadis40]

Sigh, is it any wonder then, with this sort of attitude that I wonder where the American values of rugged individualism and self-reliance have gone? Seems that if you dare to dream about starting your own company and then hiring workers to help out it's somehow an evil thing, but government taking from the productive members of society is completely justified?

Seems that's a wrong approach. What needs to be done is the encouragement of the entrepreneurial spirit.

 

[joebudda]

2 Thess. 3:10

For even when we were with you we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work he shall not eat."

This is in fact a VERY socialist principle. You are confusing socialism with the "welfare state", which is in fact what we have now. A person who is able to work, but won't because he is too selfish and lazy is not much different from the rich man who steals a lot of money from others. However, if a person is unable to work due to illness or old age, etc. we as a society are obliged to support that person.

And how would you prevent "socialism" from becoming a "welfare state" if there were individuals who didn't want to work to help pull the weight?

 

[NotreDame]

Matthew 19:24
24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

As we all know, McCain/Palin and their supporters have accused Obama of being a "socialist". Given the fact that the U.S. has a mixed economy with a number of socialist features in place for many decades, I think it would be more accurate to say that Obama is just MORE inclined toward socialist-type solutions than McCain. Personally, I do not think this is a bad thing, because in my own political philosophy, I am in fact a socialist; specifically, a Christian Socialist. This means that I believe that a society inspired by the precepts of Jesus Christ should be organized along lines that are currently labeled "socialist".

I came to this position after struggling with the above Bible quote for a long time, because it stumped me, just as it shocked Jesus' disciples when he said it. "Who then can be saved?!"

And for me, this insight solves the mystery as to why Jesus said it is next to impossible for a rich man to gain entrance to the Kingdom Of Heaven. Since their wealth has ultimately been stolen from others, rich people are therefore all guilty of violating the 8th Commandment: "Thou Shall Not Steal".

Great! Since you cite the Bible as justification for your socialist inclinations, and refer to some Bible verses construed as favoring the poor and impoverished, while condemning the rich in love with their money, can you cite for me a NT verse mandating governments codify the teachings of Christ?

According to a socialist perspective, the wealth of a society is generated by the members of that society working as a whole, not by particular individuals. Of course, some people are more talented, smarter, harder-working than others. In a sense, they contribute more, and fairness would indicate that they should therefore earn more. However, even the highest-functioning human being does not actually CREATE wealth; In reality, we human beings create nothing. We are stewards of what God has created. No person is so superior and above the average that he has actually EARNED great wealth through his own honest effort. In fact, all of the money that a person "makes" that is over and above his needs, has actually been stolen from others through exploiting the rules by which a particular society apportions it's wealth. Either that, or it was inherited from someone who stole it.

First of all, what do you mean by "wealth?"

Second, maybe they did not "create" wealth but perhaps they labored to receive it as a form of compensation for their labor. Hence, depending on the kind and type of labor, and how much it is performed, it is easy to recognize some will readily accumulate more wealth than others.

wealth can only be accumulated by the cooperation of all of the members of society working together in harmony, with the raw materials CREATED BY GOD.

I disagree. However, while it is perhaps true large demand was needed for Bill Gates to make his billions, this does not mean every purchaser of his computer, including those in society who did not purchase his computer, are entitled to a return of what they paid. They did not have to purchase his computer, they did not have to make him rich, by consuming his product in mass quantities. Yes, he is a billionaire because society consumed his product in large quantities, but this is what society chose to do. They chose to make him a billionaire and now you want to revoke what they bestowed upon him by returning a portion of the money they voluntarily chose to spend on his product to make him rich. This makes no sense.

And for me, this insight solves the mystery as to why Jesus said it is next to impossible for a rich man to gain entrance to the Kingdom Of Heaven. Since their wealth has ultimately been stolen from others, rich people are therefore all guilty of violating the 8th Commandment: "Thou Shall Not Steal".

What have they stolen? What did Bill Gates steal? People on their own volition threw their cash at him. These people were not compelled to pay for a Microsoft computer. What did Bill Gates steal? What have any of the rich people stolen?

Furthermore, I find it IRONIC you cite the 8th Commandment of, "Thou shall not steal," and in the same post exclaim we are "stewards" of what God created, implying we really do not own anything. Well, if we really do not own anything, then this commandment makes zero sense. The 8th Commandment contemplates human beings can "own" things, own parts of the earth, claim ownership over it, and rightfully so. How and why you arbitrarily set the ownership limit at "over and above his needs" is a mystery. How is it NOT stealing below this but it is stealing above it? I fail to see any such standard in the 8th Commandment.

 

[DZoolander]

(yawn)

for all of you people running around screaming about "socialism" - I have a simple question.

Is there anything other than the healthcare stuff that has your panties up in a bunch? So far as I can tell - that's about the only issue.

But please...tell me what other issues there are (if there are.)

 

[Thomas49]

Matthew 19:24
24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

I’m not trying to trash your thread, I have respect for the sentiment that comes across, but I wanted to ask if you ever heard of the east gate theory?
Can we talk about who Jesus was addressing in this quote?
Can we talk about what kind of riches this man had?
Can we talk about any other blessing that Jesus rebuked?
Or was his riches a blessing?

I have myself twisted this way and that attempting to argue my way out of the implications of this verse; but I'm afraid that it just won't do. The person Jesus was addressing appears to have been a quite upstanding young fellow, so the context just drives home the point. (full Bible quote at bottom). As far as the "east gate" argument goes, assuming this is what Jesus was referring to, the analogy is even more poignant. The "eye of the needle" gate in Jerusalem was narrow because it was designed for pedestrians, not "vehicular traffic". A camel could perhaps just squeeze through if it were not carrying anything on it's back, but if it was loaded down with cargo it was an impossible feat. Hence, a man "burdened" with many possessions likewise can not fit through the narrow gate that leads to the Kingdom.

16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" 17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e]"
20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

 

[JoyJuice]

Thomas, that is "Jesus" socialism, which has nothing to do with Christianity the political party.

 

[DZoolander]

Those pesky teachings of Jesus always get in the way of "Christians" - ya know?

 

[oldbetang]

can you cite for me a NT verse mandating governments codify the teachings of Christ?

That seems to have gone unanswered, for some reason. I would have asked for NT verse in which Christ advocates for the Government to redistribute wealth.

 

[oldbetang]

Those pesky teachings of Jesus always get in the way of "Christians" - ya know?

You mean like that pesky teaching of Jesus in which he demands that the government seize the wealth of people and pass it out to others? What is that verse again? I can't seem to recall.

 

[JoyJuice]

You mean like that pesky teaching of Jesus in which he demands that the government seize the wealth of people and pass it out to others? What is that verse again? I can't seem to recall.

It's called standard taxation. Not only a historical America way of life, but something Jesus said to pay as well. Matthew 17:24-27

 

[Jadis40]

It's called standard taxation. Not only a historical America way of life, but something Jesus said to pay as well. Matthew 17:24-27

You do realize that the first income tax, as it were, wasn't instituted until 1862, but was repealed in 1872, and that the national income tax didn't become permanent until 1913? I don't think it's any mystery why most Americans have a "knee jerk" reaction when it comes to hearing that their taxes are going to go up.

I'm sorry, but I'm from the camp that believes that a person is entitled to keep more of what they earn, instead of having it go to the government. They put the hours in at their job, they're entitled to their pay. I'm not saying that workers should keep all of it, as that's unreasonable. Roads need to be built etc. I'm just calling for better stewardship of the money that Americans send to DC.

 

[DZoolander]

Exactly.

...and I'm still curious. Apart from the healthcare initiatives - what other programs would you consider "socialist" or "redistributive"?

 

[joebudda]

Exactly.

...and I'm still curious. Apart from the healthcare initiatives - what other programs would you consider "socialist" or "redistributive"?

Government itself is socialism. It is forced with violence, funded with extortion onto a social group for the purpose of satisfying someones opinion regarding what they believe to be the "greater good".