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Christian RPGs

cardman

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There's been a good discussion going on about various types of games and if they are created by evil people or not and if they are good or not. I'm curious, How do you play an RPG like D&D in a Christian environment? In all of the RPGs I've played in, it always centered around killing stuff. Sure, we typically played "good" characters, but it was dungeon crawling. How do you DMs in the forum do it? How do you players interact with the rest of the party and the rest of the "world"?

Lots of questions, but I'm looking for honest answers. I've been wrestling this this issue for a long time as a gamer and as a game shop owner. :help:
Blessings
 

Kelly

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I am a christian DM who has 2 other christian players, along with 3 other agnostic or aethiestic players. We don't play necessarily Christian games but I strive for a continual theme of Good triumphing over evil.

In the standard D&D world, good and evil, for most creatures, is not a set of morals that one selects but rather it is part of their basal nature. It's a part of their being. Thats why you should never find moral dilemmas over destroying, say, a demon. That demon cannot be taught to be good, you will never come across a devil who has a change of heart. He or she is visiting the prime material plane (the gaming world) with one objective - extend the power of his kind through warfare, trickery and the like. Good players should loose no sleep over defeating a monster like that because there is no chance for redeeming it.

If you still have qualms about fictitious violence, a new book by WOTC, Book of Exalted Deeds, has feats and now vows of non-violence. It makes all of your attacks subdual or 'knock out' damage, including those that come from spells.

As for gaming as a hobby and being Christian, my goal is to fellowship with a group of Christian gamers, right now I only have 2 others around my table, but I'd like to have more. Creativity was given to us by God, I think we can honor Him through stories that are properly crafted.
 
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CanD

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There's been a good discussion going on about various types of games and if they are created by evil people or not and if they are good or not. I'm curious, How do you play an RPG like D&D in a Christian environment? In all of the RPGs I've played in, it always centered around killing stuff. Sure, we typically played "good" characters, but it was dungeon crawling. How do you DMs in the forum do it? How do you players interact with the rest of the party and the rest of the "world"?

Lots of questions, but I'm looking for honest answers. I've been wrestling this this issue for a long time as a gamer and as a game shop owner. :help:
Blessings
I'd like to know the same thing. I'm not setting out to judge the people that do, I just don't understand how it can be endorced on a [mainly] Christian website.

Hi Kelly,
You have an interesting post.
Thats why you should never find moral dilemmas over destroying, say, a demon. That demon cannot be taught to be good, you will never come across a devil who has a change of heart. He or she is visiting the prime material plane (the gaming world) with one objective -
Are you speaking from an RPG perspective or a real one? You can't kill demons, at least not in the 'real supernatural' (that sounds like a real oxymoron :)) world.
 
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Kelly

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CanD said:
Are you speaking from an RPG perspective or a real one? You can't kill demons, at least not in the 'real supernatural' (that sounds like a real oxymoron :)) world.
I make no claims of understanding anything about real world demons, which we must turn to scripture to battle! I was speaking strictly of the playing world that is provided with the Dungeons and Dragons pen and paper roleplaying game.

It's called Greyhawk, it's a planet of similar design to Earth (oceans, mountains, forests, deserts, etc) in a setting very similar to Lord of the Rings (there are humans, elves, dwarves, orcs and other things). The cosmology of D&D is based on alignment. There is Law and Chaos, Good and Evil - and nuetrality. That means there are different types of Good, Evil and Nuetrality Lawful alignments obey authority, the rules. Chaotic alignments believe do not respect authority, thing more personally. So Lawful Good could be seen as a person who obeys laws, works for the good of society and respects superiors and rulers. Chaotic Good would want personal freedoms and prosperity for himself and others. He would not respect authority if he disagreed with their position. Nuetral Good would fall somewhere inbetween those two.

The same could be said of evil. Lawful Evil, think the Empire from Star Wars. Officers obey their orders and work for the overall purpose of evil, rather than personal gain. Chaotic Evil individuals would care less about any rules, and anything they do is to please their own desires, no matter of what happens to others. Neutral Evil would fall, again, somewhere between those two extremes. Nuetrality has two variances as well. Lawful Neutral - Follow the rules, no matter if they benefit or harm the people. A perfect example of a Lawful Neutral character is Judge Dredd (british comic book character). He would punish a thief the same no matter if it was a starving man stealing an apple or a thug stealing a purse. Chaotic Neutral characters think only for themselves, trying not to make waves either good or evil. Think Han Solo when Luke and Obiwan first met him in Mos Eisley. FInally there is true neutral characters. THis is perhaps the most difficult alignment to roleplay. They are equally balanced between good/evil/law and chaos.

A creature's alignment helps define the types of actions that it would take in life. A lawful good character would strive to clear the land of evil, purifying the world of undead, demons and goblinoid evils. A chaotic good character might try to fight against the oppression of the government, fighting against tax collectors and unjust rule. A chaotic neutral character may join a party of adventurers if the reward looked worth the risk. He'd count his gold while the rest of the party healed the injured and all that. A lawful neutral character might seek to return a sense of order to a region overrun with marauders, seeking to return things to the way they used to be.

So, where was I going with this. Alignment in D&D isn't so much a choice with creatures as it's a part of their being. Therefore, it's rare to find any Red Dragons who are good (if any exist at all). Creatures that come from different planes of existance (other realms - the heavens and hells, etc) are so deeply a part of their homelands that they could never be of an alignment different to their basal nature.

So, evil isn't something that many creatures can be redeemed or saved from. Of course the DM is welcome to make any type of story he wishes. If you are completely unfamilliar with how D&D is played, PM me and I will explain in detail. If you have a negative opinion of it already, you've probably not seen it played correctly.
 
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ThePhoenix

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Kelly said:
I make no claims of understanding anything about real world demons, which we must turn to scripture to battle! I was speaking strictly of the playing world that is provided with the Dungeons and Dragons pen and paper roleplaying game.

It's called Greyhawk, it's a planet of similar design to Earth (oceans, mountains, forests, deserts, etc) in a setting very similar to Lord of the Rings (there are humans, elves, dwarves, orcs and other things). The cosmology of D&D is based on alignment. There is Law and Chaos, Good and Evil - and nuetrality. That means there are different types of Good, Evil and Nuetrality Lawful alignments obey authority, the rules. Chaotic alignments believe do not respect authority, thing more personally. So Lawful Good could be seen as a person who obeys laws, works for the good of society and respects superiors and rulers. Chaotic Good would want personal freedoms and prosperity for himself and others. He would not respect authority if he disagreed with their position. Nuetral Good would fall somewhere inbetween those two.

The same could be said of evil. Lawful Evil, think the Empire from Star Wars. Officers obey their orders and work for the overall purpose of evil, rather than personal gain. Chaotic Evil individuals would care less about any rules, and anything they do is to please their own desires, no matter of what happens to others. Neutral Evil would fall, again, somewhere between those two extremes. Nuetrality has two variances as well. Lawful Neutral - Follow the rules, no matter if they benefit or harm the people. A perfect example of a Lawful Neutral character is Judge Dredd (british comic book character). He would punish a thief the same no matter if it was a starving man stealing an apple or a thug stealing a purse. Chaotic Neutral characters think only for themselves, trying not to make waves either good or evil. Think Han Solo when Luke and Obiwan first met him in Mos Eisley. FInally there is true neutral characters. THis is perhaps the most difficult alignment to roleplay. They are equally balanced between good/evil/law and chaos.

A creature's alignment helps define the types of actions that it would take in life. A lawful good character would strive to clear the land of evil, purifying the world of undead, demons and goblinoid evils. A chaotic good character might try to fight against the oppression of the government, fighting against tax collectors and unjust rule. A chaotic neutral character may join a party of adventurers if the reward looked worth the risk. He'd count his gold while the rest of the party healed the injured and all that. A lawful neutral character might seek to return a sense of order to a region overrun with marauders, seeking to return things to the way they used to be.

So, where was I going with this. Alignment in D&D isn't so much a choice with creatures as it's a part of their being. Therefore, it's rare to find any Red Dragons who are good (if any exist at all). Creatures that come from different planes of existance (other realms - the heavens and hells, etc) are so deeply a part of their homelands that they could never be of an alignment different to their basal nature.

So, evil isn't something that many creatures can be redeemed or saved from. Of course the DM is welcome to make any type of story he wishes. If you are completely unfamilliar with how D&D is played, PM me and I will explain in detail. If you have a negative opinion of it already, you've probably not seen it played correctly.
Which is one of the reasons I prefer Vampire or Mage. I think that actions are something that every being gets to decide for him/herself. No sentient being should be inherently good or evil.
 
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Kelly

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One can always make a different gameworld where morality is a decision, and not to mention characters' choices are still driven by the actions of the character moreso than alignment. The DM may force a character to change his or her alignment if he performs actions that are continously against his current one. This can have repercussions if the character's class requires a particular alignment to be awarded key powers.
 
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River88

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Maybe I don't have much room to speak about exactly all of the game's details and all the roles of a dungeon master, but I do have an overall broad knowledge of the game's elements. I, for one, am weary about it. And as a Christain, I don't play it (but I'm not saying those who do are automatically labeled as horrible, non-Christain people).
Acording to my knowledge of the game, it seems questionable. There is use of sorcerers, magic, and creatures that seem to not be of the creation of God.
Sorry if this is offensive, but if anyone would care to defend the game based on the things I said I'd love to hear it. I really don't know that much about it.
 
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Tiga Ronso

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I have never really played D&D, but as long as you play good characters, I see no real problem with it. I personally am working on an RPG storyline that I hope to get made into a game sometime. I have based it on my conversion experience and yes it will have demons, but the demons will be evil and have no good qualities.
 
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Bohemian

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Quote: (Acording to my knowledge of the game, it seems questionable. There is use of sorcerers, magic, and creatures that seem to not be of the creation of God. Sorry if this is offensive, but if anyone would care to defend the game based on the things I said I'd love to hear it. I really don't know that much about it )

To answer your question, magic, sorcerors, etc. are dealt with rather lightly. The total extent of magic is this: " Player :"Zamo casts magic missle at that orc", DM:" Ok, that (calculates damage) critically wounds him." If you feel you rather avoid the fake magic because it just doesn't feel right, you can be a fighter, they only use magical weapons like the Sharply Edged Spoon of Justice +1:) . I don't really see how prentending that your character casts a spell glorifies satan. With all the misinformation spread around, I can certainly see why you question whether D&D is occultic or not. Hope that answers your question...

God Bless,
Bohemian
 
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Kelly

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I think the misunderstanding comes from the difference between attempting to play with magic in real life and saying "My wizard casts mage armor" in D&D.

I do not believe that I can, in real life, cast mage armor upon myself. I am just increasing the armor class (defensive value) of my character temporarily through one of his spells.

Every tract or anti D&D site I've read always assumes that players eventually tire of talking about pretend magic and venture out into the occult and try to cast spells in real life. I have played D&D for nearly 25 years and I have never known ANYONE who tried, or even believed, that anything involved with the game was possible/desireable in the real world.

Roleplaying games allow a group of people to construct a collective, narrative fiction. Unlike reading a novel, the player can choose the actions of his character and thus, help move the story along. The GM can't pen up too much detail in the story because if he starts railroading the players in any one direction they will feel like they are being forced into a story.

Here's an example using a segment from a piece of popular fiction:

DM: "OK, Gandalf inspects the ring. Dave, make a knowledge (history) check"
Dave: (Rolls d20, adding Gandalf's +12 skill bonus of knowledge (history)) "Um...18..+12...30.. I got a 30."
DM: "Gandolf spends a few moments inspecting the ring. It bears none of the old tongue inscriptions...but you remember that they are brought out when the ring is placed in fire."
Dave: "I put the ring into the fireplace"
DM: "OK, Gandalf places the ring in the fireplace. Pete, this ring is your uncle's treasured heirloom. Gandalf just placed it in the fire.
Pete: "Wha??? WHat are you doing?"
Dave "Watch this... After the ring has been in the fire for a few minutes I get a poker and pull it out"
DM: "You carefully extract the ring from the flames. It's covered in glowing runes. Your suspisions are confirmed. You know that the ring will not be affected by normal fire and should be cool to the touch."
Dave "I tell Frodo to take the ring"
Pete "I'm not going to touch that, it's hot! Frodo hestitates"
Dave " I drop the ring in Frodo's hand"
Pete "CRINGE"
DM " The ring is not hot. It's covered in inscriptions. Gandalf translates them for you..."
 
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River88

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Bohemian said:
Quote: If you feel you rather avoid the fake magic because it just doesn't feel right, you can be a fighter, they only use magical weapons like the Sharply Edged Spoon of Justice +1:)

Would it be possible to avoid the use of magic in a game altogether? If not, then it still sounds questionable to myself. The Bible restricts the use of witchcraft, sorcery and spells.
Yes, D&D magic may not be "real-life witchcraft" but I guess you could look at it like killing. Now you couldn't just go climb up a latter to a cloud one day and throw astroiods at people and kill them...it isn't realistic and obviously not possible. But does that make it okay? Obviously, casting a magic spell to make a rocket shoot at someone's head or waving a wand to make a bridge appear over a river just dosen't seem possible, either...it's just not realistic. But does that make it okay?
I don't know, maybe I'm not proving anything here, but I'm just trying to find out more about the game and see if there can be goodness in it.
 
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Bohemian

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River 88,
I suppose you could remove the magic element from D&D, but sword and sorcery are rather intertwined in most fantasy. To fill the gap of magic, you could use psionics, or technology. I do believe that practicing witchcraft is wrong, but I don't view D&D as witchcraft. Just to see some of the bizarre attacks on D&D check these links: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp www.chick.com/articles/dnd.asp
These people are doing a good thing by warning us not to dabble in witchcraft, but they are wrong about the game. "Straight Talk" article uses several misquotations and words out of context. Check this out http://www.mindspring.com/~rslau/games/dnd-info.html Now check this: www.mjyoung.net/dungeon/confess.html . I agree with most of the 2nd article and alot of the first. What do you think? Do you object to role-playing games or just magic in them?

-Bohemian
:wave: P.S.
If you have trouble with the links, just go to chick.com for the first two. Search with google for Confessions of a D&D addict and for the other link.
 
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Kelly

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I'm in the early (very early) planning stages of developing a roleplaying small group for my church. I think getting together to play a game is a great opportunity to fellowship before, during and after the game. I'd want the themes presented in my adventures to have strong ties to the themes from the Bible as well. God willing, I'd like to head up a small group centered on gaming.

Before I bring up the idea to the small groups leadership, I want to have everything really thought out, including the gaming system (I'm using d20), introductory handouts, purpose statement, goals, a brief overview of the game world, and of course my plan of defense should someone bring up the common misconceptions of roleplaying.

Anywho, I am going to go the route of Christia (see the CF rpg forums), where there is only one God, our God. I want to make sure that I do not present other dieties, and any races the players encounter who worship something else will be worshipping an idol/false god.

It is still a fantasy world, however, so there will be elves, dwarves and such. Those among those races who are pious, still worship God but he is interpreted somewhat differently by each race. For example, the Dwarves focus their worship on the Creator aspect. He created the heavens, and more importantly to them, the earth. They express their faith through working stone. They build grand cathedrals to Him for human cities, returning to their mountain homes without pay or ceremonial praise for their work.

Elves focus on Genesis 2, where God created the plants and animals and put man in charge of their proper use. They see God's glory in the forests, and these are their most holy of places.

Halflings focus on the loving aspect of God and have a strong need to fellowship, dine and worship together.

Humanity, who is focused mainly on it's short life span, is struggling with it's pride and desires of the world, while trying to worship all aspects of God's glory. They happen to be the most warring of the races, perhaps because their lives are so short compared to the rest? They feel a need to accomplish more for that reason.

Anyway - that's just a start.
 
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PhantomLlama

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Bohemian said:
River 88,
I suppose you could remove the magic element from D&D, but sword and sorcery are rather intertwined in most fantasy. To fill the gap of magic, you could use psionics, or technology. I do believe that practicing witchcraft is wrong, but I don't view D&D as witchcraft. Just to see some of the bizarre attacks on D&D check these links: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp www.chick.com/articles/dnd.asp
These people are doing a good thing by warning us not to dabble in witchcraft, but they are wrong about the game. "Straight Talk" article uses several misquotations and words out of context. Check this out http://www.mindspring.com/~rslau/games/dnd-info.html Now check this: www.mjyoung.net/dungeon/confess.html . I agree with most of the 2nd article and alot of the first. What do you think? Do you object to role-playing games or just magic in them?

-Bohemian
:wave: P.S.
If you have trouble with the links, just go to chick.com for the first two. Search with google for Confessions of a D&D addict and for the other link.
I saw the chick strip posted in another forum once. The first response was 'Cool, I'm getting my cleric to 8th level'
 
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River88

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Bohemian said:
What do you think? Do you object to role-playing games or just magic in them?
No, I don't completely object to role-playing games just because I have a feeling that you really could turn it into something good, such as playing out a lesson of Christ or something like that, you know? ;)
But yes, if I ever played the game I would personally take the element of magic/sorcery out of it.
 
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