Christian Rock - Evil?

[NightEternal]

Let me say that while I do enjoy some Christian hard rock and metal, I usually reserve that sort of thing for my car stereo and don't impose it upon others out of respect and the principal Paul laid out with the 'meat offered to idols' illustration. I may not be convicted it is wrong and it may not be a sin issue for me, but others are bothered by the associations they have made with that style of music (drugs and drunkenness, neither of which I have ever participated in.) Thus, I will not listen to it in thier presence so as not to cause them to stumble. This also the reason I can easily enjoy electronica, techno and club music and others immediately associate it with thier bar-hopping, recreational-sex past and have to totally avoid it.

I do not believe the church worship service is the proper venue for the heavier styles of CCM. A simple praise band does the job quite nicely for that occasion.

Sure Christian metal may make you feel aggressive and angry, but not all of it does.

If that aggression and anger is channeled towards Satan and the evil in this world such as pornography, abortion, immorality, etc. ( as Christian metal indeed does) it is productive righteous indignation and nothing to be concerned about.

 

[gaara4158]

music speaks to the heart without lyrics... lyrics speak to the mind. in a song, the music and lyrics should speak the same message. A positive song with a negative tune seems poser-ish, and a negative song with a positive song is just funny.

 

[PeacefulSDA]

Tall, that was awesome.

As for Christian death metal and thrash metal, I agree, it is an aquired taste.

The band Vengeance Rising was a good case in point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMCszoP0kVM

That style has a specific purpose and is specifically directed to youth who are already listening to it's secular counterparts and would never in a million years darken the door of the church. I have interacted with these kids, and I can tell you they are pretty much hardened to any other style of music. Most secular death metal is Satanic in its lyrical content, so you can understand the work and careful execution these Christian bands have to do to reach those who listen to them. Anyone who thinks you can reach these extreme kids with Sandi Patti are living in a dream world outside our galaxy.

Night,

I can see your overall point but don't strongly agree with it. I also don't strongly disagree with it. I listened to Vengence Rising and found that I have personally gotten a greater blessing out of the words from some of the Metallica songs I like. Why? Because the words were lost in Vengence's performance. I don't think they should stop, though. Why? Because obviously the young man who spoke at the end of the video has a deep burden on his heart to reach those who might be reached by his ministering in this way. Who am I to say it is not God putting this burden on his heart.

Plus, these young people who are listening to death metal, and who are rebelling against authority and religion as they see it presented, will eventually grow up and move on.

Now, as to those who are preaching that Christian songs with 4/4 beats are arousing passions, perhaps that is true in their own experiences. I would advise that they each step back and investigate why that is and refrain from listening to 4/4 music, Christian or otherwise, until they have a thorough understanding of why it is effecting them so.

 

[Nutella]

Nutella, you may as well have thrown gasoline on an open flame, because that is where this thread is surely headed.

Sorry I hope that we will be able to talk about it without any trouble.

'Don't believe everything you read on the net' is generally a good rule.

Yes .


What made me think is that some of those named arstist did use symbols associated with occultism (?), ex. the hexagram. What do you think about it?



I personally enjoy CCM very much.

 

[Nutella]

Yes it is. I would say the lyrics affect people more than the music though.

I could agree with that..........

Back in time I used to get very agressive as soon as my husband turned on any style of christian music. I just hated it......eventhough I enjoyed the music itself.

 

[DrStupid_Ben]

music affects people, there's no question. it's a scientifically proven fact. There is music that induces anger, music that induces love, music that induces worship, and music that induces all kinds of emotions. Music we listen to in order to worship should be music that gets us in a worshipful mood. If there is a certain rock song that gets you into that mood, then it's fine. I don't much care for Christian Rock; it's a little too boring for me, but i'd say it's a healthy alternative to the negative rock that's out there.

I disagree with the extremes of your reduction of music to "scientific fact". There are so many grey areas in music reception.

Is there a scientific definition of "worshipful mood"? It seems like such a subjective concept.

 

[happywiththelord]

i went to a seminar lately on this very subject.

they had said that a study was done using rats and music only. they decided not to use lyrics because we all know that listening to good words is uplifting, but listening to hate talk so to speak is negative. Thats a given ok. so they only used music.

they had 3 sets of rats. one set had no music, one set only played classical type music, and the other set was played music with which was in 4/4 time with the emphasis on the 2 and 4th beats (which most music today is)

after the set amount of time, the observations made on the rats where interesting.

the set with no music, obviously showed no change.
the set that had classical type music showed no change in behavior.
But...the rats that had the music played with the emphasis on the 2nd and 4th beats fought with eachother constantly, they were aggitated, and some even turned to cannibalism!

The researchers decided to to investigate further so they (unfortunatly) disected the rats brains to find out why.

what they found was the first two set of rats, there brains were normal.
but the other set of rats (the ones who were angry etc,.) they had actually something wrong with there brains. the music had changed something with there brains. i wish i could remember what it was exactly, but it actually changed the physical nature of the brain. i think it had to do with the pathways used in the transfer of informations between things in the brain. the pathway should be staight, but these rats had majorly crooked and all messed up pathways.

So with that being said, i am on the fence now with the music i listen to. i am studying the issue more, so i can make an educated ruling one way or the other. but so far, the evidence is showing not good in favor of some music.

with that being said, let it be known that i REALLY enjoy music! I love contemporary christian music! so i am not just jumping into something. this study on music has the potential to be life changing since this is the type of music i listen to!!

 

[sentipente]

And the obvious conclusion of this study is that classical music really is not music because its effects were the same as having no music. So, we know that we won't find classical music in heaven. Thanks for that study.

 

[StormyOne]

And the obvious conclusion of this study is that classical music really is not music because its effects were the same as having no music. So, we know that we won't find classical music in heaven. Thanks for that study.

ah ha!!!

 

[freeindeed2]

And the obvious conclusion of this study is that classical music really is not music because its effects were the same as having no music. So, we know that we won't find classical music in heaven. Thanks for that study.

Dat wuz funny rite dar.

 

[Telaquapacky]

Why no classical? Jazz then. And bluegrass. (Gotta be well rounded) I do a lot of jazz and bluegrass in church. If you do it right it works.

The last special music I did was a hymn from an old, old, kiddie hymnal called, "Jesus Will Come." It's one of those old grey haired lady on the klinker piano tunes, but the words were really nice. I rearranged it completely. I sang and played fingerstyle acoustic guitar for backup. I did it in a bossa-nova rhythm (sort of like "Girl From Ipanema") although a bit slower, with a sort of Jose Feliciano style intro to each verse. Breezy feel. Everyone liked it. The head elder, whose wife is quite an accomplished classical piano arranger-composer and singer, told me it was his favorite song I've done so far.

Oh, and somebody's going to quote me the EGW thing about "melodies partaking of Jazz," but remember, back in her day, when they said "Jazz," they were talking about what we call "Dixieland Jazz."

 

[sentipente]

Why no classical?

I was simply interpreting the scientific results that had been presented as if they were gospel truth.

 

[freeindeed2]

Why no classical? Jazz then. And bluegrass. (Gotta be well rounded) I do a lot of jazz and bluegrass in church. If you do it right it works.

The last special music I did was a hymn from an old, old, kiddie hymnal called, "Jesus Will Come." It's one of those old grey haired lady on the klinker piano tunes, but the words were really nice. I rearranged it completely. I sang and played fingerstyle acoustic guitar for backup. I did it in a bossa-nova rhythm (sort of like "Girl From Ipanema") although a bit slower, with a sort of Jose Feliciano style intro to each verse. Breezy feel. Everyone liked it. The head elder, whose wife is quite an accomplished classical piano arranger-composer and singer, told me it was his favorite song I've done so far.

Oh, and somebody's going to quote me the EGW thing about "melodies partaking of Jazz," but remember, back in her day, when they said "Jazz," they were talking about what we call "Dixieland Jazz."

I've had this discussion a thousand times.

Here's the deal. The argument from the far right excludes ALL forms of music from the rest of the world. Basically, music they don't like is referred to as 'debased' and attributed to 'devil-worship'. Their preference has become the center of the music 'universe'. Unfortunately this discrimination and bias made its way into the 27 Fundies book, written from an ultra-conservative western position. I've travelled the world, and listened to the music, even in Adventism. Apparently they didn't get the memo, but their music is beautifully diverse from ours here.

Why so much fear about worshiping God in diverse ways using all of the sounds from all his people across the world. By what authority do westerners and people like Sam B. write off the vast array of forms of music in our world? Again, it's the "We're right, and everyone else is wrong!" mentality!

 

[Telaquapacky]

Yeah, and what they forget is that some of the music they consider so sanctified was frowned upon when it was first introduced.

Another comment about the rat study. What? Rats are so spiritual they can tell us what kind of music to use in church? Rats have good taste in music?

You have to think about what you're trying to say in a song and who you are talking to. If it's a crowd of teens, and the subject is God's wrath and anger, or the hopelessness and destructiveness of sin, crank up the metal! But if you are talking to a generationally mixed audience, and you want to emphasize more positive things- peace, consecration, glory, praise, you need a more light-hearted sound. Some people will be easily offended by anything out of their rut, but most people will accept any music that is done tastefully and sincerely, if it fits the mood of worship. I'm not talking about pushing the envelope for the sake of pushing the envelope. I'm talking about updating what may have become old and worn out. Any church musician should be first and foremost a servant of their church family, not a star or a performer trying to make a name for themselves.

Another thing to bear in mind. Not all churches are blessed with musicians talented enough to pull it off. That goes for any style- but especially if you want to do something new and different. And not every church musician is blessed with a church family that can dig what they have to offer!

 

[PeacefulSDA]

i went to a seminar lately on this very subject.

they had said that a study was done using rats and music only. they decided not to use lyrics because we all know that listening to good words is uplifting, but listening to hate talk so to speak is negative. Thats a given ok. so they only used music.

they had 3 sets of rats. one set had no music, one set only played classical type music, and the other set was played music with which was in 4/4 time with the emphasis on the 2 and 4th beats (which most music today is)

after the set amount of time, the observations made on the rats where interesting.

the set with no music, obviously showed no change.
the set that had classical type music showed no change in behavior.
But...the rats that had the music played with the emphasis on the 2nd and 4th beats fought with eachother constantly, they were aggitated, and some even turned to cannibalism!

The researchers decided to to investigate further so they (unfortunatly) disected the rats brains to find out why.

what they found was the first two set of rats, there brains were normal.
but the other set of rats (the ones who were angry etc,.) they had actually something wrong with there brains. the music had changed something with there brains. i wish i could remember what it was exactly, but it actually changed the physical nature of the brain. i think it had to do with the pathways used in the transfer of informations between things in the brain. the pathway should be staight, but these rats had majorly crooked and all messed up pathways.

So with that being said, i am on the fence now with the music i listen to. i am studying the issue more, so i can make an educated ruling one way or the other. but so far, the evidence is showing not good in favor of some music.

with that being said, let it be known that i REALLY enjoy music! I love contemporary christian music! so i am not just jumping into something. this study on music has the potential to be life changing since this is the type of music i listen to!!

I have heard reports of many such studies, even watched a Mythbuster's episode where they repeated a study to confirm or deny the effects of rock or classical music on pea plants. As I recall, it was busted.

When I read your reference to this study you were told about in the seminar you attended, I rushed to Snopes to see if it was an urban legend. Nothing there. So, I turned to Google and found a Baby Genious article that confirmed what you had been told and one of the doctors who was involved with the research. Armed with that name, I Googled further and found additional articles invoking the same study. The interesting thing is, I discovered that the orginal article had taken some poetic license with the details. I am providing the links to three of the articles as well as a brief overview of the details from each.
-----------------------------------------------------

http://www.internationalparentingassociation.org/Music/studies.html

rats were stated as subjects of study
waltz music was control group
rock-type music was other
within a few days, rock-type rats had lost memory and turned cannibalistic
---------------------------------------------
http://vanillafudge.com/link_backups/music2.htm

mice not rats
no music
Strauss Waltz
Voodoo drums, quietly
measured each group for cognitive ability to remember a maze to food
no music - no change in ability to remember
Strauss Waltz - increased memory ability
Voodoo drums - strongly impaired ability to remember maze
dissecting of voodoo brain group revealed brain damage
no cannibalism described
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.reversespins.com/music.html
mice not rats
no music
Strauss Waltz
Voodoo drums, quietly
measured each group for cognitive ability to remember a maze to food
no music - no change in ability to remember
Strauss Waltz - increased memory ability
Voodoo drums - strongly impaired ability to remember maze
dissecting of voodoo brain group revealed brain damage
no cannibalism described

This article's author's motivation is to hope to prove that the friction from the music stimulates the chakra, which creates an assault on the Light/chi of the individual.

------------------------------------------------------

My point is, don't make a life-changing decision based on one study. Seek the facts before taking action. Sometimes there are subtle motivations that attempt to play on our fears in order to move us to whatever action these seminars may be supporting. God gave each of us a brain. Let's use them.

 

[JonMiller]

Miriam danced before the Lord, and they including instruments with beat (cymbals? tambourines? in the old testament.

I do think that comercialism is an issue in contemporary Christian music, just like it has polluted many other aspects of life (And religious life). Additionally, I am sure that there are bands which aren't really giving a Christian message. The link in the OP was a bit sensationalist though.

JM

 

[Telaquapacky]

I'll bet if you played Del Delker or King's Heralds at 100dB to a box of rats they'd be at one another's throats too!

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I basically agree with Night's take on this. I think villianizing Christian modern-style music -- rock, metal, whatever -- is a dead end and a dead horse and counterproductive. I know the difference between CCM vs. SECULAR music ("neutral" & human-experience oriented) vs. SATANIC musick (directly offers occult and/or Satanic themes in lyrics) ... then there is what i call "apocalyptic" music which has themes from both God & Satan plus the human experience of being caught up in the cosmic war, etc. Anyway there's a distinct difference in how CCM affects me emotionally from the other two, particularly the latter (Satanic). I am very sensitive to music; i can literally go into vision just from listening to the "right" music. Right now I CAN'T listen to CCM. THEY won't let me. So obviously it isn't THEIRS now is it.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Here's the deal. The argument from the far right excludes ALL forms of music from the rest of the world. Basically, music they don't like is referred to as 'debased' and attributed to 'devil-worship'. Their preference has become the center of the music 'universe'. Unfortunately this discrimination and bias made its way into the 27 Fundies book, written from an ultra-conservative western position.

MAD REPS for the above ...

I've travelled the world, and listened to the music, even in Adventism. Apparently they didn't get the memo, but their music is beautifully diverse from ours here.

Why so much fear about worshiping God in diverse ways using all of the sounds from all his people across the world. By what authority do westerners and people like Sam B. write off the vast array of forms of music in our world? Again, it's the "We're right, and everyone else is wrong!" mentality!

When i used to darken the doorstep i have been to churches that use CCM in worship but this can get boringly redundant and tedious when they use the SAME songs over & over again and the musicianship is sub-par and they get some fat blonde up there who THINKS she can sing (and no one can say otherwise because she's Daddy Elder's daughter ... ) So yeah music must be done RIGHT to have any use at all in worship. Crappy musicianship blows it for everyone.

 

[Telaquapacky]

Right now I CAN'T listen to CCM. THEY won't let me. So obviously it isn't THEIRS now is it.

Who is they? Who is keeping you from listening to the music you want to?