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Christian relics

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Tyndale

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Catholic Church's most highly venerated relics have been pieces of the "true Cross". So many of these were scattered throughout Europe and other parts of the world that Calvin once said that if all pieces were gathered together, they would form a good ship-load; yet the Cross of Christ was carried by one individual! Are we to believe that these pieces miraculously multiplied as when Jesus blessed the loaves and fishes? Such was apparently the belief of St. Paulinus who spoke of "the reintegration of the Cross", i.e. that it "never grew smaller in size, no matter how many pieces were detached from it"! [The Catholic Encyclopaedia, Vol. 4, p. 524]

The great Swiss reformer John Calvin (1509-1564) mentioned the inconsistency of various relics of his day. Several churches claimed to have the Crown of Thorns; others claimed to have the water-pots used by Jesus in the miracle at Cana. Some of the wine was to be found at Orleans. Concerning a piece of broiled fish which Peter offered to Jesus, Calvin said: "It must have been wondrously well salted, if it has kept for such a long series of ages."

What was allegedly the crib of Jesus was exhibited for veneration every Christmas Eve at St. Mary Major's in Rome. Several churches claimed to have the baby clothes of Jesus. The Church of St. James in Rome displayed what was claimed to be the altar on which Jesus was placed when He was presented in the temple. Even the foreskin (from His circumcision) was shown by the monks of Charroux, who, as a proof of its genuineness, declared that it yielded drops of blood. [Calvin's Tracts, Vol. 1, pp. 296-304] Several churches claimed to possess the "holy prepuce", including a church at Coulombs, France, the Church of St. John in Rome, and the Church of Puy in Velay! [John P. Wilder: The Other Side of Rome, Grand Rapids, 1959, p. 54]

Other relics include Joseph's carpenter tools, bones of the donkey on which Jesus rode into Jerusalem, the cup used at the Last Supper, the empty purse of Judas, Pilate's basin, the coat of purple thrown over Jesus by the mocking soldiers, the sponge lifted up to Him on the Cross, nails from the Cross, specimens of the hair of the Virgin Mary (some brown, some blond, some red, and some black), her skirts, wedding ring, slippers, veil, and even a bottle of the milk on which Jesus had been suckled. [Wilder, p. 53]

According to Romanist belief, Mary's body was miraculously taken up to Heaven; but several different churches in Europe did claim to have the body of Mary's mother, even though we know nothing about her and she was not even credited with the name "St. Ann" until a few centuries ago!

Catholics believe that the house in which Mary lived at Nazareth is now in the little town of Loreto, Italy, having been transported there by angels! The Catholic Encyclopaedia says:

"Since the fifteenth century, and possibly even earlier, the 'Holy House' of Loreto has been numbered among the most famous shrines of Italy [...]. The interior measures only thirty-one feet by thirteen. An altar stands at one end beneath a statue, blackened with age, of the Virgin Mother and her Divine Infant, [...] venerable throughout the world on account of the Divine mysteries accomplished in it. [...] It is here that most holy Mary, Mother of God, was born; here that she was saluted by the Angel; here that the eternal Word was made Flesh. Angels conveyed this House from Palestine to the town Tersato in Illyria in the year of salvation 1291 in the pontificate of Nicholas IV. Three years later, in the beginning of the pontificate of Boniface VIII, it was carried again by the ministry of angels and placed in a wood [...], where, having changed its station thrice in the course of a year, at length, by the will of God, it took up its permanent position on this spot. [...] That the traditions thus boldly proclaimed to the world have been fully sanctioned by the Holy See cannot for a moment remain in doubt. More than forty-seven popes have in various ways rendered honour to the shrine, and an immense number of Bulls and Briefs proclaim without qualification the identity of the Santa Casa di Loreto with the Holy House of Nazareth" ! [The Catholic Encyclopaedia, Vol. 13, p. 454]

The veneration of dead bodies of martyrs was ordered by the Council of Trent, the Council which also condemned those who did not believe in relics: "The holy bodies of holy martyrs [...] are to be venerated by the faithful, for through these bodies many benefits are bestowed by God on men, so that they who affirm that veneration and honour are not due to the relics of the saints [...] are wholly to be condemned, as the Church has already long since condemned, and also now condemns them." [The Catholic Encyclopaedia, Vol. 12, p. 737] Of course, because it was believed that "many benefits" could come through the bones of dead men, the sale of bodies and bones became big business for the Church!

In about 750, long lines of wagons constantly came to Rome bringing immense quantities of skulls and skeletons which were sorted, labelled, and sold by the popes. [H.B. Cotterill: Mediaeval Italy, New York, 1915, p. 71] Graves were plundered by night and tombs in churches were watched by armed men! No wonder Gregorovius wrote: "Rome was like a mouldering cemetery in which hyenas howled and fought as they dug greedily after corpses." [Quoted by Ralph Woodrow: Babylon, Mystery Religion, Riverside, California, 1966, p. 62]

There is in the Church of St. Prassede a marble slab which states that in 817 Pope Paschal had the bodies of 2,300 martyrs transferred from cemeteries to this church. [Cotterill, p. 391] When Pope Boniface IV converted the Pantheon into a Romanist church in about 609, "twenty-eight cartloads of sacred bones were said to have been removed from the Catacombs and placed in a prophyry basin beneath the high altar". [The Catholic Encyclopaedia, Vol. 2, p. 661]

Placing bones beneath a church or other relics was a requirement for "consecrating" the ground and the building. The Castle Church at Wittenberg in Germany, to the door of which Luther nailed his famous Ninety-five Theses, had 19,000 saintly relics! [Will Durant: The Story of Civilisation: Caesar and Christ, New York, 1944-1977, Vol. 6, p. 339] Bishops were forbidden by the second Nicaean Council in 787 to dedicate a building if no relics were present; the penalty for so doing was excommunication!

Were these ideas taken from the Bible?

In the old legends, when Nimrod, the false "saviour" of Babylon, died, his body was torn limb from limb – part being buried one place, and part in another. When he was "resurrected", becoming the sun-god, it was taught that he was now in a different body, the members of the old body being left behind. This is in stark contrast to the death of the true Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, of Whom it was prophesied: "A bone of him shall not be broken" (John 19:36), and Who was resurrected in the true sense of the word. The resurrection of Christ resulted in an empty tomb, no parts of His body being left behind for relics!

In the old Babylonian mystery religion from which Romanism is derived, the various places where it was believed a bone of a god was buried were considered sacred – "consecrated" by a bone. "Egypt was covered with sepulchres of its martyred god; and many a leg and arm and skull, all vouched to be genuine, were exhibited in the rival burying places for the adoration of the Egyptian faithful." [Alexander Hislop: The Two Babylons, New York, 1959, p. 179]

Needless to say, the use of relics is very ancient and did not originate with Christianity. Even The Catholic Encyclopaedia actually admits that the use "of some object, notably part of the body or clothes, remaining as a memorial of a departed saint" was in existence "before the propagation of Christianity" and "the veneration of relics, in fact, is to some extent a primitive instinct associated with many other religious systems besides that of Christianity". [The Catholic Encyclopaedia, Vol. 12, p. 734]

If Christ and the Apostles did not use relics, but the use of such was known prior to Christianity and among other religions, do we not have another example of a pagan idea being 'Christianised' ?
Relics can have no part in true worship, for "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24) The extremism to which the use of imaginary and faked relics has led in the Church is certainly not "truth".

Some of the bones that were at one time acclaimed as the bones of saints have been exposed as the bones of animals! In Spain, a cathedral once displayed what was said to be part of a wing of the Angel Gabriel when he visited Mary. Upon investigation, however, it was found to be a magnificent ostrich feather! [Lorraine Boettner: Roman Catholicism, Philadelphia, 1962, p. 290]

The Catholic Encyclopaedia itself recognises that many relics are "doubtful", but fails to admit that probably all of them are fakes: "Many of the more ancient relics duly exhibited for veneration in the great sanctuaries of Christendom or even at Rome itself must now be pronounced to be either certainly spurious or open to grave suspicion [...]. Difficulties might be urged against the supposed 'column of the flagellation' venerated at Rome in the Church of Santa Prassede and against many other famous relics." [The Catholic Encyclopaedia, Vol. 12, p. 737]

How, then, is this discrepancy explained? The Catholic Encyclopaedia continues: "[...] no dishonour is done to God by the continuance of an error which has been handed down in perfect good faith for many centuries. [...] Hence there is justification for the practice of the Holy See in allowing the cult of certain doubtful ancient relics to continue." In other words, it is acceptable to believe a lie.

Even if we did have one of Mary's hairs, or a bone of the apostle Paul, or the robe of Jesus, would God be pleased with these things being used as objects of worship? According to the example of the brass serpent of Moses, He would not. If there is no real virtue in the actual hair, bone, or robe, how much less merit can there be in relics which are known to be fakes?
 

freespiritchurch

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Using the Catholic Encyclopedia, a source that's now nearly 100 years old and does not reflect the substantial reforms undertaken in the 20th century, is patently unfair to the current teaching of the Catholic Church. At the same time, the Protestant sources you're using are obviously biased: Babylon, Mystery Religion? The Two Babylons?

It's good that you cited your sources, but the fact that you know enough to cite your sources suggests to me that you also know your sources aren't any good and that you're not interested in having an actual discussion. CF is here to unite Christians in one body; there are other places to go if you want to denounce Popish idolatry.
 
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Tyndale

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Can we start a "Flamebait" subforum for posts like this?

Excuse me?:confused:

Why is it that when anything shows up about church history in a negative light, people want to call them flames? It's like certain people don't want to hear of the wrongs and brush it all under the carpet.
 
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Tyndale

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Using the Catholic Encyclopedia, a source that's now nearly 100 years old and does not reflect the substantial reforms undertaken in the 20th century, is patently unfair to the current teaching of the Catholic Church. At the same time, the Protestant sources you're using are obviously biased: Babylon, Mystery Religion? The Two Babylons?

This is church history mrconstance, we can't simply pick up a new Catholic Encyclopedia to understand the history, because it's highly edited. To understand the churches mistakes we have to use old sources and the church makes mistakes mrconstance. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Mrconstance, you can't have everything one way. You say that Babylon, Mystery Religion? The Two Babylons? are biased, I say the Catholic Encyclopedia is biased towards catholics. [Swings and round-a-bouts]


It's good that you cited your sources, but the fact that you know enough to cite your sources suggests to me that you also know your sources aren't any good and that you're not interested in having an actual discussion. CF is here to unite Christians in one body; there are other places to go if you want to denounce Popish idolatry.

Now Mrconstance, we can't sweep history under the carpet. There's many a war, murder and theft done in the name of Protestantism, yet I wouldn't think of calling such posts as denouncing Protestantism. They were'nt done in my name would be the responce.
 
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freespiritchurch

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Let me explain the problems in more detail:

You're using the Catholic Encyclopedia to represent the views of Catholics. A 100-year-old source written before the reforms of Vatican II is not a fair reflection of the teaching of the Catholic Church--especially when you consider that the Council sought to differentiate "traditions" that had grown up over time from the "Tradition" that were vital to the faith.

You've also misrepresented the content of the Catholic Encyclopedia article, which notes that "the balance of recent Catholic opinion, as represented by the more learned Catholic periodicals, is strongly in his [the critic's] favour." Thus, the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1910 (!) recognized that modern (that is, 100-year-old) historical studies made it unlikely that the house was really moved from Nazareth. So your comment that "Catholics believe..." is not true and not supported by the sources you quote.
Similarly, the quotes about the "cartloads of bones" are hyperbolic, and written to generate outrage as well as knowledge.

That doesn't even cover your unverified and unsupportable claim that "Romanism" is derived from a "Babylonian mystery religion." It also doesn't cover the part of the power where you start offering your personal opinions. "Relics can have no part in true worship" does not belong in church history; that's a theological assertion.

Again, the problem with your post is that it doesn't meet even the most minimal standards for a historical discussion. Here are some books that will give you a broader perspective; they're all based on facts.

Abou-El-Haj, Barbara. The Medieval Cult of Saints, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1994.


Geary, Patrick. Furta Sacra: Relic Thefts in the Central Middle Ages, New York: 1978.


Noble, Thomas F. X. & Thomas Head (eds.), Soldiers of Christ: Saints and Saints’ Lives from Late Antiquity to the Middle Ages, University Park, PA: Pennsylvania State University Press, 1995.

Woodward, Kenneth. Making Saints: How the Catholic Church Determines Who Becomes a Saint, Who Doesn’t, and Why, New York: Simon & Schuster, 1990.
 
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Tyndale

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Let me explain the problems in more detail:

You're using the Catholic Encyclopedia to represent the views of Catholics. A 100-year-old source written before the reforms of Vatican II is not a fair reflection of the teaching of the Catholic Church-

That doesn't even cover your unverified and unsupportable claim that "Romanism" is derived from a "Babylonian mystery religion."

Mrconstance, there may be certain issues that were beefed up by the critics, but they were'nt lies. I realise what your talking about and I notice the RC Church has come a long way but they still adhere to some of these teachings and they did at one time sell this Dogma as genuine. Which resulted in many millions of people believing certain Dogma was Gospel and more seriously that Mary was to be worshipped.

As for the baylonian Mystery religion, I quoted the person who said that.
 
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freespiritchurch

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OK, so now you're recognizing that the Catholic Church of today doesn't preach the things you're criticizing. So what was the point of bringing them up now? Why did you start a post with the comment "Catholics believe..." when you know that they don't?

And you quoted an author who said that Catholicism derives from a Babylonian mystery religion. Is the evidence any good? Is his theory accepted by any objective historian? The answer to both questions is "no." So why not read some actual history? I promise you that the books I cited above will give you plenty of material you can use to fuel your outrage, but they'll be based in reality.
 
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Tyndale

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I never said it doesn't preach those things. I said it has come a long way.

mr constance you tell me what has changed from Vatican two?

Do all Catholics now believe that the holy house wasn't transported by Angels? can you tell me this is so and if so why don't they believe it anymore?
 
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revanneosl

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Please try to understand that devotion to relics started out in much the same sort of respect that people today show to the remains of their deceased family members. The earliest martyrs were members of very close-knit communities. They were highly revered by their brothers & sisters in Christ for having the courage to profess their faith even in the face of persecution and death. Because of this reverence for their faith, their mortal remains were equally revered.

The practice of reverencing relics of the martyrs grew and expanded over time to include relics of Jesus himself, his mother, John the Baptist and the other apostles, mainly because people must have something as a focus of their devotion. We are hopelessly physical beings. Having some thing: some bread, some wine, some water, some oil, some salt, some relic, some book, some painting, some statue, gives us a psychological grasping point at which to attempt contact with our radically unseen and transcendent God. God knows this about us. He made us this way. Jesus himself gave us at least the bread, the wine and the water. Yes, certainly, we’ve embroidered and augmented the signs with some bright ideas of our own. We are, after all, made in the image of a creative and creating God – a God who became incarnate in physicality, just as we seek to find ways to physicalize our faith.

And yes, certainly, the traffic in relics in the high middle ages became something of a scandal, just as the traffic in the church’s (quite proper) dispensation of forgiveness became a scandal. Economics spoils everything. But there isn’t a single Christian communion on the face of the earth that hasn’t done or taught something during its history that, in retrospect, seems like it may have been a bad idea, or ill considered, or in error, or a downright offense to the gospel. I’m a Methodist, you know – those fun people who established the utter failure that was liquor Prohibition in America. The sons of Calvin put people in prison for praying in the way that the spirit moved them. The Puritans cancelled Christmas out of a deep seated fear that somebody, somewhere, might be having a good time. Every Christian communion has its bad days, or years, or eras. Give the Romans a break already.

Grace & Peace
 
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NewToLife

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I think a discussion of the theology that lies behind the Christian usage of relics could actually be quite interesting, not to merntion illuminating for many here. I cant really see the point of commenting on that theology here though as this is simply a continuation of the 400 odd years old spat between Rome and it's offshoots.
 
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freespiritchurch

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I provided you with references to several books that will help you get a grounding in the history of the veneration of relics. For a readable take on the role of saints and relics in the post-Vatican II church, I'd look in particular at Making Saints.

The Catholic Encyclopedia article that you quoted gives a great deal of information on the real Catholic teaching on the Holy House, and the reasons that its physical validity has come into doubt.

Alan
 
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Tyndale

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This is the story about Mary's house. Certain religions have been told that the house in which Mary lived at Nazareth is now in the little town of Loreto, Italy, having been transported there by angels !

A basillica is built over the little house transported by Angels

Loreto.jpg


Inside the basillica, there's a shrine to Mary the mother of Heaven

loreto1.jpg



What does this little Holy house mean to modern day Catholics?

I assume they don't accept it was transported by angels from Nazareth any more, so do they still accept that it's a Holy Place?

 
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freespiritchurch

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This is the story about Mary's house. Certain religions have been told that the house in which Mary lived at Nazareth is now in the little town of Loreto, Italy, having been transported there by angels !

A basillica is built over the little house transported by Angels

Loreto.jpg


Inside the basillica, there's a shrine to Mary the mother of Heaven

loreto1.jpg



What does this little Holy house mean to modern day Catholics?

I assume they don't accept it was transported by angels from Nazareth any more, so do they still accept that it's a Holy Place?

A question specifically aimed at Catholics really belongs on the One Bread, One Body (OBOB) forum. I think it would be helpful for you to see the range of opinion on an issue like this; different Catholics will have very different answers.
 
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Tonks

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What does this little Holy house mean to modern day Catholics?

I assume they don't accept it was transported by angels from Nazareth any more, so do they still accept that it's a Holy Place?

Miracles are not necessarily de fide for Catholics. Further, with respect to the Holy House of Loreto...the various papal pronouncements back in the day have nothing to do with faith or morals or even with historical facts which can in any way be called dogmatic.

I find the shrine a curiousity, nothing more.
 
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Hairy Tic

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Catholic Church's most highly venerated relics have been pieces of the "true Cross". So many of these were scattered throughout Europe and other parts of the world that Calvin once said that if all pieces were gathered together, they would form a good ship-load; yet the Cross of Christ was carried by one individual!
## What this overlooks is that:

1. Most relics of the Cross are not primary relics, but second-class or third-class relics: that is, they are not pieces of it, but have come into contact with it.

2. Most first-class relics of the Cross are extremely small - we're not talking about anything comparable to multiple heads of St.John the Baptist.
Are we to believe that these pieces miraculously multiplied as when Jesus blessed the loaves and fishes? Such was apparently the belief of St. Paulinus who spoke of "the reintegration of the Cross", i.e. that it "never grew smaller in size, no matter how many pieces were detached from it"! [The Catholic Encyclopaedia, Vol. 4, p. 524]

The great Swiss reformer John Calvin (1509-1564) mentioned the inconsistency of various relics of his day. Several churches claimed to have the Crown of Thorns; others claimed to have the water-pots used by Jesus in the miracle at Cana. Some of the wine was to be found at Orleans. Concerning a piece of broiled fish which Peter offered to Jesus, Calvin said: "It must have been wondrously well salted, if it has kept for such a long series of ages."

What was allegedly the crib of Jesus was exhibited for veneration every Christmas Eve at St. Mary Major's in Rome.
## The crib may be genuine - even if it is not, there are plenty of relics which are genuine.

Besides, if the abuse of a thing meant it had to be rejected, the Bible would have been ditched a very long time ago. Nothing can alter the fact that the Saints are the vessels of the Holy Spirit - that, is why their relics are holy and venerable & precious: "more precious than gold", as the remains of the glorious martyr St.Polycarp are called in the account of his martyrdom. These ideas do not fit the argument that the use of relics is a survival from paganism. As long as the thinking is ignored, they can be made to look like the remains of Orestes mentioned by Herodotus - the snag is that Orestes was a Greek hero, & not a member of Jesus Christ.

Several churches claimed to have the baby clothes of Jesus. The Church of St. James in Rome displayed what was claimed to be the altar on which Jesus was placed when He was presented in the temple. Even the foreskin (from His circumcision) was shown by the monks of Charroux, who, as a proof of its genuineness, declared that it yielded drops of blood. [Calvin's Tracts, Vol. 1, pp. 296-304] Several churches claimed to possess the "holy prepuce", including a church at Coulombs, France, the Church of St. John in Rome, and the Church of Puy in Velay! [John P. Wilder: The Other Side of Rome, Grand Rapids, 1959, p. 54]

Other relics include Joseph's carpenter tools, bones of the donkey on which Jesus rode into Jerusalem, the cup used at the Last Supper, the empty purse of Judas, Pilate's basin, the coat of purple thrown over Jesus by the mocking soldiers, the sponge lifted up to Him on the Cross, nails from the Cross, specimens of the hair of the Virgin Mary (some brown, some blond, some red, and some black), her skirts, wedding ring, slippers, veil, and even a bottle of the milk on which Jesus had been suckled. [Wilder, p. 53]

According to Romanist belief, Mary's body was miraculously taken up to Heaven;
## No - the Mother of God, not her body alone, was assumed into Heaven. ##
but several different churches in Europe did claim to have the body of Mary's mother, even though we know nothing about her and she was not even credited with the name "St. Ann" until a few centuries ago!
## Even if that were so - in fact, she has been called that for a very long time now; for well over 1500 years - she must have had a name. No disputes about her name alter the fact that her daughter was the Mother of God.
Catholics believe that the house in which Mary lived at Nazareth is now in the little town of Loreto, Italy, having been transported there by angels! The Catholic Encyclopaedia says:

"Since the fifteenth century, and possibly even earlier, the 'Holy House' of Loreto has been numbered among the most famous shrines of Italy [...]. The interior measures only thirty-one feet by thirteen. An altar stands at one end beneath a statue, blackened with age, of the Virgin Mother and her Divine Infant, [...] venerable throughout the world on account of the Divine mysteries accomplished in it. [...] It is here that most holy Mary, Mother of God, was born; here that she was saluted by the Angel; here that the eternal Word was made Flesh. Angels conveyed this House from Palestine to the town Tersato in Illyria in the year of salvation 1291 in the pontificate of Nicholas IV. Three years later, in the beginning of the pontificate of Boniface VIII, it was carried again by the ministry of angels and placed in a wood [...], where, having changed its station thrice in the course of a year, at length, by the will of God, it took up its permanent position on this spot. [...] That the traditions thus boldly proclaimed to the world have been fully sanctioned by the Holy See cannot for a moment remain in doubt. More than forty-seven popes have in various ways rendered honour to the shrine, and an immense number of Bulls and Briefs proclaim without qualification the identity of the Santa Casa di Loreto with the Holy House of Nazareth" ! [The Catholic Encyclopaedia, Vol. 13, p. 454]

The veneration of dead bodies of martyrs was ordered by the Council of Trent, the Council which also condemned those who did not believe in relics: "The holy bodies of holy martyrs [...] are to be venerated by the faithful, for through these bodies many benefits are bestowed by God on men, so that they who affirm that veneration and honour are not due to the relics of the saints [...] are wholly to be condemned, as the Church has already long since condemned, and also now condemns them." [The Catholic Encyclopaedia, Vol. 12, p. 737] Of course, because it was believed that "many benefits" could come through the bones of dead men, the sale of bodies and bones became big business for the Church!
## Not a penny is made by sellers of Bibles, no doubt.

It is reprehensible in the extreme to accuse any assembly of Christians of the appalling hypocrisy which is implied here, when there is no basis for it; relics are honourable because the Saints whose bodies they come from or are, were holy in this life, & glorified God, & were approved by Him. This is nothing to do with money.

In about 750, long lines of wagons constantly came to Rome bringing immense quantities of skulls and skeletons which were sorted, labelled, and sold by the popes. [H.B. Cotterill: Mediaeval Italy, New York, 1915, p. 71] Graves were plundered by night and tombs in churches were watched by armed men! No wonder Gregorovius wrote: "Rome was like a mouldering cemetery in which hyenas howled and fought as they dug greedily after corpses." [Quoted by Ralph Woodrow: Babylon, Mystery Religion, Riverside, California, 1966, p. 62]

There is in the Church of St. Prassede a marble slab which states that in 817 Pope Paschal had the bodies of 2,300 martyrs transferred from cemeteries to this church. [Cotterill, p. 391]
## That is true, & entirely innocent; the Pope wished to preserve the holy bodies from being lost as a result of the decay of the catacombs - so he had them transferred to a place where they would be safer. What is wrong with that ?
When Pope Boniface IV converted the Pantheon into a Romanist church in about 609, "twenty-eight cartloads of sacred bones were said to have been removed from the Catacombs and placed in a prophyry basin beneath the high altar". [The Catholic Encyclopaedia, Vol. 2, p. 661]
## Again, these bodies were precious, so they were rightly protected & honoured
Placing bones beneath a church or other relics was a requirement for "consecrating" the ground and the building. The Castle Church at Wittenberg in Germany, to the door of which Luther nailed his famous Ninety-five Theses, had 19,000 saintly relics! [Will Durant: The Story of Civilisation: Caesar and Christ, New York, 1944-1977, Vol. 6, p. 339] Bishops were forbidden by the second Nicaean Council in 787 to dedicate a building if no relics were present; the penalty for so doing was excommunication!

Were these ideas taken from the Bible?

In the old legends, when Nimrod, the false "saviour" of Babylon, died, his body was torn limb from limb – part being buried one place, and part in another. When he was "resurrected", becoming the sun-god, it was taught that he was now in a different body, the members of the old body being left behind. This is in stark contrast to the death of the true Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, of Whom it was prophesied: "A bone of him shall not be broken" (John 19:36), and Who was resurrected in the true sense of the word. The resurrection of Christ resulted in an empty tomb, no parts of His body being left behind for relics!
## All that about Nimrod is a 19th century fiction, for which there is not one single scrap of evidence apart from the assertions of the author of "The Two Babylons". It is fiction. It is not true. It is without any basis in fact. I've read TTB, many times, so I know how that argument is made. It is based on nothing solid. It is horrifying that anything so completely unfounded should be so widely believed.

There are books on Babylonian religion, written by people who are intimately acquainted with the surviving details about it. Hislop could not read the relevant languages; which is hardly a qualification for calling an entire religion Babylonian, pagan, or devil-worship. :mad:
In the old Babylonian mystery religion from which Romanism is derived, the various places where it was believed a bone of a god was buried were considered sacred – "consecrated" by a bone. "Egypt was covered with sepulchres of its martyred god; and many a leg and arm and skull, all vouched to be genuine, were exhibited in the rival burying places for the adoration of the Egyptian faithful." [Alexander Hislop: The Two Babylons, New York, 1959, p. 179]

Needless to say, the use of relics is very ancient and did not originate with Christianity. Even The Catholic Encyclopaedia actually admits that the use "of some object, notably part of the body or clothes, remaining as a memorial of a departed saint" was in existence "before the propagation of Christianity" and "the veneration of relics, in fact, is to some extent a primitive instinct associated with many other religious systems besides that of Christianity". [The Catholic Encyclopaedia, Vol. 12, p. 734]

If Christ and the Apostles did not use relics, but the use of such was known prior to Christianity and among other religions, do we not have another example of a pagan idea being 'Christianised' ?
Relics can have no part in true worship, for "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24) The extremism to which the use of imaginary and faked relics has led in the Church is certainly not "truth".
## Again, that would mean throwing out Christ, the Bible, & just about everything else: because Christ came as man, not as a spirit.
Some of the bones that were at one time acclaimed as the bones of saints have been exposed as the bones of animals! In Spain, a cathedral once displayed what was said to be part of a wing of the Angel Gabriel when he visited Mary. Upon investigation, however, it was found to be a magnificent ostrich feather! [Lorraine Boettner: Roman Catholicism, Philadelphia, 1962, p. 290]
## Before the rise of comparative anatomy, this is perfectly understandable.

Do Protestants never tire of raking up things to attack the Church for ?
The Catholic Encyclopaedia itself recognises that many relics are "doubtful", but fails to admit that probably all of them are fakes: "Many of the more ancient relics duly exhibited for veneration in the great sanctuaries of Christendom or even at Rome itself must now be pronounced to be either certainly spurious or open to grave suspicion [...]. Difficulties might be urged against the supposed 'column of the flagellation' venerated at Rome in the Church of Santa Prassede and against many other famous relics." [The Catholic Encyclopaedia, Vol. 12, p. 737]
## Of course it does not - because a very great many are genuine. The Saints & Martyrs of the Catholic Reformation, & since, are well known, their bodies are often easy to trace. So there is no danger of confusion here.
How, then, is this discrepancy explained? The Catholic Encyclopaedia continues: "[...] no dishonour is done to God by the continuance of an error which has been handed down in perfect good faith for many centuries. [...] Hence there is justification for the practice of the Holy See in allowing the cult of certain doubtful ancient relics to continue." In other words, it is acceptable to believe a lie.
## This is not lying - because it is not claimed by those words that bones known to be those of a dog are those of a man.
Even if we did have one of Mary's hairs, or a bone of the apostle Paul, or the robe of Jesus, would God be pleased with these things being used as objects of worship? According to the example of the brass serpent of Moses, He would not. If there is no real virtue in the actual hair, bone, or robe, how much less merit can there be in relics which are known to be fakes?
## That was under the OT - we are under the NT; which makes a great difference.

God had not sanctified human nature & the human body by making it the means of His Presence among men - now, He has. This is what makes the Christian veneration of relics absolutely different in kind & in motive from all pagan use of them; Jewish veneration of relics was an anticipation of it, but not the same, as God was not man under the Old Dispensation. Under the New, He is - for ever. He has not ceased to be man.
 
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MoNiCa4316

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Some (or most) of these relics are probably fake, and I think sometimes people focus way too much on them. However, there's nothing especially wrong with them if they don't distract us from God. Some people like tangible things and it gives them stronger faith...and maybe some of these relics are real or 'miraculous', who knows? Eastern Orthodox Christians claim that some people were healed by icons, I don't know if that's true, but who knows, maybe God uses things like that if the people believe that's how He works.

I'm not really into any of this, but I wouldn't say it's wrong. It's for some people but not for others.

God bless


monica
 
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