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Christian Nudists
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<blockquote data-quote="MyChainsAreGone" data-source="post: 74092881" data-attributes="member: 241841"><p>Of the committed Christian nudists that I know, ALL would stop if it could be demonstrated from God's Word that it is sin.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Shame is <em>always</em> an indication that something is wrong. Shame is <em>never</em> God's will for His children. It is <em>never </em>God's will for us to be ashamed of our bodies, for that shame is literally an insult to our Creator (as it was when Adam and Eve first sinned).</p><p></p><p>Interesting that you say, "(aside from the Devil’s attempts to make you feel this way about that which God deems right)" as if that was just a corner case and doesn't count in the discussion... because THAT is <em>exactly</em> what happened (I believe) in Eden after Adam and Eve sinned. God asked Adam, "Who told you that you were naked?" The only entity that could be is Satan... he was there; he had opportunity; he had motive (to attack the Creator); and Eve had already decided to listen to him and follow his counsel. What better way to attack the goodness of the Creator than to incite the image-bearers to be ashamed of that very "image"?</p><p></p><p>No, their nudity was not shameful. The fact that they felt fear (and shame? the text doesn't say so...) because they were naked was the direct result of their disobedience to God (not their bodies). Their shameful behavior was in rejecting the command of God rather than continuing to exist in the form that God created them... without clothing... without shame... without sin.</p><p></p><p>The other erroneous assumption behind your question is this... "Guilty by association" is <em>never</em> a reliable way to determine whether something is sinful or not. That's simply not biblically sound... ever. If we want to declare something to be wrong, we need to be able to support it with direct biblical statements. And in this case, the "association" itself is really weak... because it's self-evident that their sin had nothing to do with their nakedness. And we have <em>a direct statement</em> that God <em>intended</em> for them to be naked, and that He approved of that condition, for it was exactly how He created them... and He even made a point of including the observation in His word (Genesis 2:25).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Adam and Eve are never described by God or by themselves as "ashamed" in Genesis... that's something we read into the text. The only place that "shame" is mentioned was that they were naked and "UN-ashamed." When Adam sinned, he explained his actions by saying that he was <em>"afraid,"</em> not "ashamed."</p><p></p><p>This makes any assertions that we might make based on the "shame" in the account to be VERY weak assertions.</p><p></p><p>"Embarrassment" isn't even in the text, so it has no place in our discussion except as a possible characterization of what they <em>may</em> have been feeling. Even that's a stretch, though, since the entire concept of "embarrassment" is something of a socially derived feeling... that requires societal standards and expectations to define. Since it was just the two of them in all of humanity, I don't think that was even possible yet.</p><p></p><p>Culture is <em>never</em> the measure of morality. If we can't find it in God's Word, then we have no business claiming something is immoral.</p><p></p><p>I think your question has to be turned back on you, though... what evidence do you have that there is <em>any</em> moral directive in the account of the sin of Adam and Eve?</p><p></p><p>For something as common as our bodies (everyone has one) and something as common as clothing (it started right here in this account), it is utterly incomprehensible to suggest that God didn't know how to directly tell us His expectations regarding clothing and nudity, so that He left it to us to just "figure out" by inferences, associations, and assumptions.</p><p></p><p>I like to say it this way...</p><p></p><p><strong><em>Narrative</em> </strong><em>is not <strong>Imperative</strong>.</em></p><p><em><strong>Narrative </strong>without <strong><em>Imperative </em></strong>is not <strong>Normative</strong>.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p>In other words, just because a story is in the Bible doesn't mean that we have a moral obligation to mimic the story in any way. Sometimes God gives a story, then issues a command... but if He does not, then we need not treat the story as a moral command.</p><p></p><p>Here's an example of a <em><strong>Narrative+Imperative</strong></em> (story+command) right in the Creation account.</p><p></p><p>Genesis 2:22-24</p><p>God created Eve from Adam's side (vss 22-23). God then gives the command (vs. 24) establishing the marriage and the nuclear family (husband/wife). He even commands them to have sex ("one-flesh").</p><p></p><p>That's Narrative+Imperative. That's How God uses stories to give commands. And if we don't find the command, we cannot assert that the story should be taken as a command.</p><p></p><p>Can you think of <em>any</em> theological or moral teaching that does not follow this approach to discerning morality?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="MyChainsAreGone, post: 74092881, member: 241841"] Of the committed Christian nudists that I know, ALL would stop if it could be demonstrated from God's Word that it is sin. Shame is [I]always[/I] an indication that something is wrong. Shame is [I]never[/I] God's will for His children. It is [I]never [/I]God's will for us to be ashamed of our bodies, for that shame is literally an insult to our Creator (as it was when Adam and Eve first sinned). Interesting that you say, "(aside from the Devil’s attempts to make you feel this way about that which God deems right)" as if that was just a corner case and doesn't count in the discussion... because THAT is [I]exactly[/I] what happened (I believe) in Eden after Adam and Eve sinned. God asked Adam, "Who told you that you were naked?" The only entity that could be is Satan... he was there; he had opportunity; he had motive (to attack the Creator); and Eve had already decided to listen to him and follow his counsel. What better way to attack the goodness of the Creator than to incite the image-bearers to be ashamed of that very "image"? No, their nudity was not shameful. The fact that they felt fear (and shame? the text doesn't say so...) because they were naked was the direct result of their disobedience to God (not their bodies). Their shameful behavior was in rejecting the command of God rather than continuing to exist in the form that God created them... without clothing... without shame... without sin. The other erroneous assumption behind your question is this... "Guilty by association" is [I]never[/I] a reliable way to determine whether something is sinful or not. That's simply not biblically sound... ever. If we want to declare something to be wrong, we need to be able to support it with direct biblical statements. And in this case, the "association" itself is really weak... because it's self-evident that their sin had nothing to do with their nakedness. And we have [I]a direct statement[/I] that God [I]intended[/I] for them to be naked, and that He approved of that condition, for it was exactly how He created them... and He even made a point of including the observation in His word (Genesis 2:25). Adam and Eve are never described by God or by themselves as "ashamed" in Genesis... that's something we read into the text. The only place that "shame" is mentioned was that they were naked and "UN-ashamed." When Adam sinned, he explained his actions by saying that he was [I]"afraid,"[/I] not "ashamed." This makes any assertions that we might make based on the "shame" in the account to be VERY weak assertions. "Embarrassment" isn't even in the text, so it has no place in our discussion except as a possible characterization of what they [I]may[/I] have been feeling. Even that's a stretch, though, since the entire concept of "embarrassment" is something of a socially derived feeling... that requires societal standards and expectations to define. Since it was just the two of them in all of humanity, I don't think that was even possible yet. Culture is [I]never[/I] the measure of morality. If we can't find it in God's Word, then we have no business claiming something is immoral. I think your question has to be turned back on you, though... what evidence do you have that there is [I]any[/I] moral directive in the account of the sin of Adam and Eve? For something as common as our bodies (everyone has one) and something as common as clothing (it started right here in this account), it is utterly incomprehensible to suggest that God didn't know how to directly tell us His expectations regarding clothing and nudity, so that He left it to us to just "figure out" by inferences, associations, and assumptions. I like to say it this way... [B][I]Narrative[/I] [/B][I]is not [B]Imperative[/B]. [B]Narrative [/B]without [B][I]Imperative [/I][/B]is not [B]Normative[/B]. [/I] In other words, just because a story is in the Bible doesn't mean that we have a moral obligation to mimic the story in any way. Sometimes God gives a story, then issues a command... but if He does not, then we need not treat the story as a moral command. Here's an example of a [I][B]Narrative+Imperative[/B][/I] (story+command) right in the Creation account. Genesis 2:22-24 God created Eve from Adam's side (vss 22-23). God then gives the command (vs. 24) establishing the marriage and the nuclear family (husband/wife). He even commands them to have sex ("one-flesh"). That's Narrative+Imperative. That's How God uses stories to give commands. And if we don't find the command, we cannot assert that the story should be taken as a command. Can you think of [I]any[/I] theological or moral teaching that does not follow this approach to discerning morality? [/QUOTE]
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