Christian newby questions...

Original Happy Camper said:

The word of GOD says:
Matthew 4:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

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Sorry, that is not an NT verse that teaches that we must keep the OT Law of eating unclean animals. Please try again.

Actually, Paul says that we are not to judge others in regards to meat, or drink.


Telling others that they cannot eat unclean animals is a form of judgment. So this means that the dietary laws on forbidding to eat unclean animals is no longer in effect.

Note: This would also apply for the Saturday Sabbath (that is observed from Friday at sundown to Saturday at sundown). Sure, you can keep the Saturday Sabbath, but to say it is for salvation is putting forth judgment that no longer applies anymore. We are not under the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses). We are under a New Covenant with New Commands.

Bible Highlighter said:

He is referring to his attributes and not how He can change covenants and or send His Son down to us via the Incarnation, etc.

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this statement is on your posts
" We should focus on obeying those commands that come from Jesus and His followers"
I assume you are referring to the two "new" commandments

Please define the definition of love for me from the bible.

Bible Highlighter said:

Sorry, that is not an NT verse that teaches that we must keep the OT Law of eating unclean animals. Please try again.

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God does not lie or change his word

GOD created them unclean and it cannot be changed by man

Mark 7:7
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Original Happy Camper said:

this statement is on your posts
" We should focus on obeying those commands that come from Jesus and His followers"
I assume you are referring to the two "new" commandments

Please define the definition of love for me from the bible.

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The two greatest commandments (Loving God, and loving your neighbor is a part of both covenants, but each of the new covenants has different commands that are unique to each covenant). A careful study of the two covenants and their commands will show you the difference.

The Moral Law (love GOD, and love your neighbor, i.e. worship GOD alone, do not murder, steal, commit adultery, etc.) existed even before the written Law of Moses (or the 613 laws given to Israel by Moses). The Moral Law came into existence when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Anyways, because certain laws were repeated in the Law of Moses, and are still applicable today does not mean that the whole of the Old Covenant Law is in effect. You cannot physically obey both covenants. It's impossible. One is either a New Covenant believer, or they are an Old Covenant believer (i.e. a Jew).

Loving your neighbor is a part of loving GOD (See: Matthew 25:31-46, compare with Luke 10:25-37).

Loving your neighbor is a part of keeping the Moral Law (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc. - See Romans 13:8-10).

Think of it like a contract in buying a house. If you desired to have the contract changed, and the seller agreed to the changes, you would go by the new contract, but that does not mean some things within the old contract have not been repeated. That does not mean that they are the same contracts. You go by the new contract and not the old one. Jesus says you are not to put new wine into old wine skins (or bottles), otherwise they will burst.

Bible Highlighter said:

Sorry, that is not an NT verse that teaches that we must keep the OT Law of eating unclean animals. Please try again.

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which part of the NT verse spoken by Jesus quoting the OT is inaccurate,

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Original Happy Camper said:

which part of the NT verse spoken by Jesus quoting the OT is inaccurate,

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

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*Sigh* I am not denying that there are not certain truths that remain the same between both covenants. Also, obviously there were many OT Messianic prophecies that were being fulfilled by Jesus Himself. This does not mean that the OT was being destroyed, but it was being fulfilled. What I am referring to is God's laws when it comes to the covenants. You cannot obey both. It is physically impossible because these laws at many times contradict each other. The New Covenant went into effect officially with Christ's death. But Jesus was making changes to the Old Law during his earthly ministry.

@Original Happy Camper


Here are a list of verses (showing us the Old Law is no more):

"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).

“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).

”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).

27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).

50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).

@Original Happy Camper

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).


Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).

Bible Highlighter said:

The Moral Law (love GOD, and love your neighbor, i.e. worship GOD alone, do not murder, steal, commit adultery, etc.) existed even before the written Law of Moses (or the 613 laws given to Israel by Moses). The Moral Law came into existence when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

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You quoted 4 of the ten commandments as the moral law does that mean that they all "10" are part of the moral law?

The Sabbath Law was in effect prior to being give to Moses on the Mountain, the story of the mana proves that. Why do you think the bucket of mana is in the ark of the testament along with the two tables of stone with the royal law on them.

The sin offing was in place with the first family as Cain killed Able over the nonacceptance by the lord of his vegetable sacrifice.

How did they receive knowledge to do this was it a letter posted marked from heaven or by the word preceding out of the mouth of the LORD?

Another_uniqueUsername said:

Can I ask who wrote Hebrews?

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Over the years, I have not been convinced that it was Paul. I don't think it is important to truly know who wrote the book. What is important is applying the New Covenant to our lives (i.e. to obey Jesus and His followers).

You said:

Also can I ask if you are aware of a circular reasoning that appears also, that Timothy and Acts are Paul's creations and aside from Hebrews..(some online websites attribute Paul as the writer of this book due to continuity of vocabulary in language to the greeting and farewell..otherwise consistent with Paul's other letters, I am unsure myself, I simply cannot confidently say for certain)..
Some call it the Deuteronomy 13 test...
Where by the newest authors have to be consistent with a God that does not change, so we both avoid deceptive scripture, false prophets AND heed Jesus' warnings (all being consistent with eachother...or to put it another way..no continuity errors).
Otherwise using Paul's letters as the only method to validate Paul's teaching is a circular reasoning...I just need to point that out.

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There is no indication that the book of Hebrews is not authentic Scripture. It harmonizes with many other pieces of NT Scripture that say a similar thing.

Bible Highlighter said:

But Jesus was making changes to the Old Law during his earthly ministry.

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Those changes involved what the Jews had add on to the laws he wrote on the tables of stone.

Bible Highlighter said:

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

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I agree with this statement as JESUS became our HIGH PRIEST and Sacrificial system came to an end at his death on the cross. HE FULFILLED THE SACRIFICIAL LAW OT THE SANCTUARY.

Original Happy Camper said:

You quoted 4 of the ten commandments as the moral law does that mean that they all "10" are part of the moral law?

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Moral Law:

(definition):

A general rule of right living.

Especially : such a rule or group of rules conceived as universal and unchanging and as having the sanction of God's will, of conscience, of man's moral nature, or of natural justice as revealed to human reason.

Source:
Definition of MORAL LAW

Romans 2:14 says,

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Romans 2:14).

What law did the Gentiles keep by nature without having the Law of Moses?
This would naturally be the Moral Law (like do not kill, steal, etc.). Society as a whole instinctively knew certain things were wrong. In fact, you can turn on the news today, and people (in general) condemn murder, theft, rape, etc.

Nobody has to hit them over the head to tell them that certain things are wrong. That is what a Moral Law is.

The Sabbath is a ceremonial law because it is ceremony based or ritual based. Nobody is going to instinctively keep the Saturday Sabbath. Certain birds know to fly to their nesting grounds. God could have instinctively made us to get tired on Saturday, but this is not the case.

The Sabbath Law was in effect prior to being give to Moses on the Mountain, the story of the mana proves that. Why do you think the bucket of mana is in the ark of the testament along with the two tables of stone with the royal law on them.

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I am not new to the Bible. Of course the Sabbath was introduced shortly before the giving of the Law of Moses.

As for the Royal Law: Well, that is loving your neighbor and not the 10. James refers to how the Royal Law is loving your neighbor. Your not really loving your neighbor by keeping a ceremony of rest on a specific day. The Saturday Sabbath is a picture or symbol pointing to the rest we have in Christ. This does not mean we get to disobey God's commands like many OSASer's believe. We are saved by God's grace (Justification), and Sanctification (Holy living and or good works that the Lord does through the believer).

You said:

The sin offing was in place with the first family as Cain killed Able over the nonacceptance by the lord of his vegetable sacrifice.

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Not sure what that has to do with the Sabbath or the Law of Moses.

You said:

How did they receive knowledge to do this was it a letter posted marked from heaven or by the word preceding out of the mouth of the LORD?

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You have to understand that while there are some similarities between the two different covenants, they are not exactly the same. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

Original Happy Camper said:

Those changes involved what the Jews had add on to the laws he wrote on the tables of stone.

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No. Jesus was quoting OT Scripture, and Jesus was making NT changes.

Original Happy Camper said:

I agree with this statement as JESUS became our HIGH PRIEST and Sacrificial system came to an end at his death on the cross. HE FULFILLED THE SACRIFICIAL LAW OT THE SANCTUARY.

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I am aware of the standard statement made by those who believe as you do. In my view, it is not consistent with what the text of the Bible plainly says. Colossians 2 for me demolishes the idea that we must keep the Saturday Sabbath, the dietary laws, circumcision, etc.

Original Happy Camper said:

You quoted 4 of the ten commandments as the moral law does that mean that they all "10" are part of the moral law?

The Sabbath Law was in effect prior to being give to Moses on the Mountain, the story of the mana proves that. Why do you think the bucket of mana is in the ark of the testament along with the two tables of stone with the royal law on them.

The sin offing was in place with the first family as Cain killed Able over the nonacceptance by the lord of his vegetable sacrifice.

How did they receive knowledge to do this was it a letter posted marked from heaven or by the word preceding out of the mouth of the LORD?

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Is not sleeping with one's parents a violation of the Moral Law?
Is it in the 10?

What about loving God and loving your neighbor?
In the NT, we show our love for GOD and our neighbor by preaching the gospel, helping the poor, loving our enemies, and in loving the brethren. We worship GOD, and dedicate our lives to Him. I would say that these are instructional Moral Laws. They are the kind of laws that we need to be told to do but they are based on doing what is good and loving. It is not ceremony based or based on executing justice or something.

@Another_uniqueUsername

I would encourage you to check out my Blogger article on the many evidences that back up the Bible as being divine in origin.

Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

I hope this helps;
And may GOD bless you.

Bible Highlighter said:

What about loving God and loving your neighbor?

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The "new" commandments were an amplification of the ten commandments. The first four is how we LOVE GOD the last six is how we love our neighbor.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

They were new to the Jews, as we know they crucified our savior whom they did not love.

In acts 10 Peter tells us that the Jews did not love their neighbors, thus they were new commandments to them.

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

DEfine love from the bible please