Christian newby questions...

Original Happy Camper

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Definition of MORAL LAW

Romans 2:14 says,

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Romans 2:14).

What law did the Gentiles keep by nature without having the Law of Moses?
This would naturally be the Moral Law (like do not kill, steal, etc.).

Bible definition
James 2:8
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Only scripture at that time was the LAW and the PROPHETS
 
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Another_uniqueUsername

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Otherwise using Paul's letters as the only method to validate Paul's teaching is a circular reasoning...I just need to point that out.



I might need to make this point again...

Here are a list of verses (showing us the Old Law is no more):

"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

Written by Paul (arguable)

”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).

Written by Paul

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

Wrote Paul....

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

Wrote Paul....

20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).

Wrote Paul....

“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

Wrote Paul....

"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

Written by Paul (arguable)

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

Written by Paul (arguable)

16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).

Written by Paul (arguable)

”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).

Written by Paul (arguable)

27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).

50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

Written by Paul (arguable)

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

Wrote Paul...

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

Wrote Paul....

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

Wrote Paul....

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).

Wrote Paul....

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

Wrote Paul.....

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).

Wrote Paul....
 
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Bible definition
James 2:8
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Only scripture at that time was the LAW and the PROPHETS

The Royal Law tells you right there what kind of Law that it is. It says "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." This is a repeated Law that has carried over into the New Testament. The perfect Law of liberty is mentioned in James 1:25. This is clearly NT Law. For the OT Law did not bring liberty, but it brought death.
 
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I might need to make this point again...

Here are a list of verses (showing us the Old Law is no more):

"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

Written by Paul (arguable)

”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).

Written by Paul

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

Wrote Paul....

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

Wrote Paul....

20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).

Wrote Paul....

“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

Wrote Paul....

"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

Written by Paul (arguable)

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

Written by Paul (arguable)

16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).

Written by Paul (arguable)

”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).

Written by Paul (arguable)

27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).

50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

Written by Paul (arguable)

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

Wrote Paul...

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

Wrote Paul....

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

Wrote Paul....

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).

Wrote Paul....

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

Wrote Paul.....

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).

Wrote Paul....

So you don't believe Paul's words are authoritative Scripture?
If so, are you an Ebionite?
 
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The "new" commandments were an amplification of the ten commandments. The first four is how we LOVE GOD the last six is how we love our neighbor.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

They were new to the Jews, as we know they crucified our savior whom they did not love.

In acts 10 Peter tells us that the Jews did not love their neighbors, thus they were new commandments to them.

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

DEfine love from the bible please

I don't believe in OSAS, and I believe we are saved by two works of GOD (Both in Justification and in Sanctification).

But the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Jesus said to keep His commandments. Please show me where Jesus tells us to keep the Sabbath, or the dietary laws, or circumcision. How about after the cross? Are we commanded to keep these things? If so, where?
 
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define sleeping

Well, this kind of like Bible basics for me, my friend. Most Bible students generally know "sleep" or "know" "see their nakedness" it is talking about having intimate relations (or the act of procreation).
 
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Original Happy Camper

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For the OT Law did not bring liberty, but it brought death.

The Law brought liberty from death in the OT, which is the wages of sin.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death;
 
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klutedavid

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I might need to make this point again...

Here are a list of verses (showing us the Old Law is no more):

"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

Written by Paul (arguable)

”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).

Written by Paul

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

Wrote Paul....

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

Wrote Paul....

20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).

Wrote Paul....

“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

Wrote Paul....

"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

Written by Paul (arguable)

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

Written by Paul (arguable)

16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).

Written by Paul (arguable)

”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).

Written by Paul (arguable)

27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).

50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

Written by Paul (arguable)

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

Wrote Paul...

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

Wrote Paul....

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

Wrote Paul....

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).

Wrote Paul....

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

Wrote Paul.....

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).

Wrote Paul....
Well written.

Galatians 3:12
However, the Law is not of faith.
 
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The Law brought liberty from death in the OT, which is the wages of sin.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death;

full
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Well, this kind of like Bible basics for me, my friend. Most Bible students generally know "sleep" or "know" "see their nakedness" it is talking about having intimate relations (or the act of procreation).


Just wanted to make sure we were both in the same page.

Adultery would cover that one. response to your question above
 
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klutedavid

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The Law brought liberty from death in the OT, which is the wages of sin.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
When quoting from the text (1 John) about sin and the commandments, always include the commandments that John instructed us to follow.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
 
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Just wanted to make sure we were both in the same page.

Adultery would cover that one. response to your question above

No it wouldn't because adultery is sexual unfaithfulness involving a married couple. Fornication is generally sex outside of marriage. Paul uses the word fornication in 1 Corinthians 5 so as to refer to an incestous relationship that is wrong.
 
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Another_uniqueUsername

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So you don't believe Paul's words are authoritative Scripture?
If so, are you an Ebionite?
No. Im not familiar with Ebionites.
Im clearly trying to point out that when you use Pauls own letters to validate Paul it is circular reasoning and when you apply Deuteronomy 13 to Paul he was infact neither persecuted but put to death for his "teachings" which is consistent to Deuteronomy 13 or namely the punishment for leading people away from God.
There are many warnings about false prophets and heresy, I don't believe God will judge anyone for checking the validity of anyone who makes statements or seeks to make changes contrary to his commandments in context of heeding such warnings when we are told to "be decieved not" or where the truth has nothing to fear from scrutiny.
 
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What about polygamy?

The OT does not really have a command that condemns this (although certain OT stories do subtly teach against polygamy). It is in the NT that we more clearly learn about the condemnation of polygamy.
 
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No. Im not familiar with Ebionites.
Im clearly trying to point out that when you use Pauls own letters to validate Paul it is circular reasoning and when you apply Deuteronomy 13 to Paul he was infact neither persecuted but put to death for his "teachings" which is consistent to Deuteronomy 13 or namely the punishment for leading people away from God.
There are many warnings about false prophets and heresy, I don't believe God will judge anyone for checking the validity of anyone who makes statements or seeks to make changes contrary to his commandments in context of heeding such warnings when we are told to "be decieved not" or where the truth has nothing to fear from scrutiny.

One of the beliefs of Ebionites is that they deny the works of Paul as being inspired Scripture. It sounds like you have problems with Paul's writings being inspired Scripture. This to me is a deal breaker in even having a conversation with someone involving the Bible. You either accept all of the Bible, or you don't. If you don't accept the Bible as God's holy Word, then I think it is best we do not discuss the Bible. I believe that one has to accept the Bible as a whole first before they can learn the Bible properly.
 
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How do you love one another by keeping a ceremony on a specific day vs. partaking of this ceremony on another day? What if I chose Wednesday to worship GOD and rest on that day? Would I not be loving my neighbor if I did that vs. resting on Saturday? How would I be not loving my neighbor by not taking a day of rest during one week? What if a believer was preaching the gospel and helping the poor all week? Are they not loving their neighbor then?
 
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Also, Jesus tells us to preach the gospel. Is not preaching the gospel sort of like loving your neighbor? Do we not tell others about the gospel because we care for their souls?
Because we love them? I do not see preaching the gospel in the 10. Yet, it is the 1st thing Jesus told us to do in the great commission. Preaching the gospel is loving your neighbor and it is not present in the 10. Yet, it is essential in how we love as believers.
We should care about lost souls to tell them the truth.
 
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Jesus commands of us:

Go you into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believes and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believes not shall be condemned (Mark 16:15-16).

Jesus is commanding us to do this. Yet, it is not in the 10.
 
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