Christian Morality

[Ukrainia]

If faith is something we decide and something we live out, then legislating Christian morality is useless but an argument can be made that legislating Christian morality in that case is essential.

I'm still confused.

 

[Zebra1552]

People can either come to the conclusion that Christian morality should or should not be legislated, or decide that some morality should be and some shouldn't. Whatever the conclusion, the reasons behind the conclusion- the argument- is what is important. Which means what someone thinks Christianity is is just as important as whether they think Christian morality should be legislated. The conclusion is meaningless if the argument is flawed.

 

[William777]

Clearly yes, but to what extent? When we speak of Christian morals we mean the laws of God. Which all of God's law was condensed into two commands love God w/ all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. But all man's law is based in some part upon God's law for it was established by God even if it is perverted by man.

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. " Romans 13:1-2

You cannot have laws without having in some part God's morality for example it is written thall shalt not kill. Where did this law in our judicial system come from? by human morals? Apart from God we have no morals and we have no conscience; it is by God's law put upon men's hearts that we have morals and a conscience. Where did marriage come from? This is a concept not found in nature it is from the morality of God.

But murder is harmful to society, and most non-believers can agree to that in some form. So then when we speak of legislating morality to some extent we can all agree it is necessary because of the corruption in the world through lust.

Now here is a question, what can we legislate upon without God's morality?

When we take God's morality away we are left simply with our own lust and we will legislate upon those lust. I desire an environment to live in and pursue wealth and happiness therefore I will legislate against murder, theft, rape and the like.

However, notice that all of the law is given to limit in some manner the lust of man; for example a law against murder acknowledges that man has the lust to murder within his heart. Clearly we can see that the consequences of the lust to murder is grave and so we legislate against it. Now what about the consequences of another sin which might not be as blatantly severe?

The problem with legislating upon lust and not the morals of God is that we don't understand the consequences of sin and laws will be given to endorse certain lust and constrain other lust. Furthermore with each generation legislating more and more freedom for lust we become a further perverse society with each passing age. This is evident in history with every past society. Take Sodom and Gomorrah they legislated so heavily upon their lust that eventually the last few generations before God's judgement made it lawful and common to rape strangers upon the roadways.

Take the Roman empire. The old, agnostic, historian, Eduard Gibbon gave five reasons why Rome fell in his book, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

1. The breakdown of marriage, the undermining of the dignity and sanctity of the home which is the basis for every society.
2. Higher and higher taxes, the spending of public money for free bread and circuses for the populace.
3. The mad craze for pleasure, sports becoming every year more exciting, more brutal, more immoral.
4. The building of great armaments when the real enemy was within; the decadence of the people, the decay of individual responsibility
5. The decay of religion, faith fading into mere form, losing touch with life, losing power to guide the people.

Now, believing in God, why then should we desire a society that has no regard to seeking God's blessing through a lawful, moral, society? Furthermore why should we seek a society that gives free rein to the lust of men? Will this be beneficial to our nation or our children?

In reality, the Bible does not depict a world or an end to the world in which a godly society is present but actually the opposite,

"Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed(literally translated Christ), saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."

Now here is the depiction of the end times in that a world wide rebellion breaks out to destroy the cords (the laws) and the bands (marriage) of God. so what happens to this society? Read further in psalm 2, "Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."

So How should we legislate?

"Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."

With godly wisdom.

-William

 

[Zebra1552]

How will you enforce such legislation? Fines? "You didn't worship God today. That's 200$, sir."

 

[William777]

I am not concerned with the conclusions the Bible gives me those. Practically speaking you cannot have legislation without some form of god's morality. God's morality is found in every society's laws. Thus the revised question is to what extent and the conclusion of the matter is to legislate with godly wisdom.

However, what I am concerned with is not how to control a godless society but how I conduct my thoughts, actions, and life. I desire God's will to be my will. I desire Gods thoughts to be my thoughts. I desire God's friends to be my friends and his enemies to be my enemies. So I aim to conduct myself, both intellectually, volitionally, emotionally, vitally, and judicially, in a manner in which is becoming of an ambassador and child of God. So that on that day, Lord willing, when God judges the secrets of mens hearts I will be found blameless. What I think, say, and do....its for better or worse just a declaration and indication of who I am.

For example,

A young couple went to Europe on their honeymoon. While in Paris, France, they went to the Louvre. When they found that it was a museum of art, they hurried down one corridor after another to find the exit. As they went out, one turned to the other and said, “It is ridiculous to charge two francs to see all those old pictures!” Behind them an elderly gentleman tapped them on the shoulder and said, “I could not help overhearing what you said. I come here every day, I spend hours here. The Louvre has been here for several hundred years and when you come here, it is not on trial — you are on trial. What you think of it does not tell what the Louvre is; it does tell who you are.”

-W

 

[sbvera13]

No. Why? Let me see if I can demonstrate.

Should Christian morality be legislated (and thus forced) upon non-Christians?

Should Islamic morality be legislated (and thus forced) upon non-Muslims?

Should Hindu morality be legislated (and thus forced) upon non-Hindu?

Should Buddhist morality be legislated (and thus forced) upon non-Busshist?

Should Toaist morality be legislated (and thus forced) upon non-Toaists?

Should Confucian morality be legislated (and thus forced) upon non-Confucianists?

Should Sioux morality be legislated (and thus forced) upon non-Sioux?

Should Shinto morality be legislated (and thus forced) upon non-Shinto?

Should !Kung morality be legislated (and thus forced) upon non-!Kung?

Should Wiccan morality be legislated (and thus forced) upon non-Wiccans?

Should Hellenistic morality be legislated (and thus forced) upon non-Hellenes?

Should Nordic morality be legislated (and thus forced) upon non-Norse?

Should Humanistic morality be legislated (and thus forced) upon non-Humanists?

Should Deist morality be legislated (and thus forced) upon non-Deists?

I could go on... and on... and on.

 

[Yusuf Evans]

It's impossible for Christians to enforce their morality on others. They have no legal system in place, they can't agree with one another(notice the hundred different denominations) and each "Church" has it's own set of rules on what makes one a "true" Christian. Jesus(PBUH) never put out a set of law for Christians to live by; if people talk about the Old Testament, so many Christians have said that no longer applies as Jesus(PBUH) did away with that.

 

[sbvera13]

Take the Roman empire. The old, agnostic, historian, Eduard Gibbon gave five reasons why Rome fell in his book, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

1. The breakdown of marriage, the undermining of the dignity and sanctity of the home which is the basis for every society.
2. Higher and higher taxes, the spending of public money for free bread and circuses for the populace.
3. The mad craze for pleasure, sports becoming every year more exciting, more brutal, more immoral.
4. The building of great armaments when the real enemy was within; the decadence of the people, the decay of individual responsibility
5. The decay of religion, faith fading into mere form, losing touch with life, losing power to guide the people.

Unfortunately that has little to do with history. Rome was directly responsible for spreading Christianity to all of the Empire before it fell... it actually had a uniting influence and helped the Empire last just a little longer. I'd hardly call that the decay of religion... more like the roots of European civilization.

When we take God's morality away we are left simply with our own lust and we will legislate upon those lust. I desire an environment to live in and pursue wealth and happiness therefore I will legislate against murder, theft, rape and the like.

Firstly, you have an extremely dim view of the human race if you think lust is our only innate ability. I pity you if you truly believe that. Also, you disprove your own statement. You desire happiness, etc., so you would legislate against murder, etc. That's secular law in it's simplest form, right there. It doesn't require God at all, and even your own explanation doesn't use it.

 

[sbvera13]

It's impossible for Christians to enforce their morality on others. They have no legal system in place, they can't agree with one another(notice the hundred different denominations) and each "Church" has it's own set of rules on what makes one a "true" Christian.

There are... 100 different denominations? At a guess? So, if one of them gets it's beliefs passed into law, that makes the other 99 illegal. Christians wanting to legislate morality should ponder that, and consider whether theirs will be the lucky one....

 

[Yusuf Evans]

There are... 100 different denominations? At a guess? So, if one of them gets it's beliefs passed into law, that makes the other 99 illegal. Christians wanting to legislate morality should ponder that, and consider whether theirs will be the lucky one....

They should ponder that. Here's a link

List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Autumnleaf]

For example,

A young couple went to Europe on their honeymoon. While in Paris, France, they went to the Louvre. When they found that it was a museum of art, they hurried down one corridor after another to find the exit. As they went out, one turned to the other and said, “It is ridiculous to charge two francs to see all those old pictures!” Behind them an elderly gentleman tapped them on the shoulder and said, “I could not help overhearing what you said. I come here every day, I spend hours here. The Louvre has been here for several hundred years and when you come here, it is not on trial — you are on trial. What you think of it does not tell what the Louvre is; it does tell who you are.”

-W

The library in Alexandria was a sight to behold as well. It is now no more. People decide what stays and what goes over time. They often do so independently of the preferences of old fuddy duddies. Every once in awhile God tends to intercede and clean things up a bit.

 

[Zebra1552]

I am not concerned with the conclusions the Bible gives me those. Practically speaking you cannot have legislation without some form of god's morality. God's morality is found in every society's laws. Thus the revised question is to what extent and the conclusion of the matter is to legislate with godly wisdom.

However, what I am concerned with is not how to control a godless society but how I conduct my thoughts, actions, and life. I desire God's will to be my will. I desire Gods thoughts to be my thoughts. I desire God's friends to be my friends and his enemies to be my enemies. So I aim to conduct myself, both intellectually, volitionally, emotionally, vitally, and judicially, in a manner in which is becoming of an ambassador and child of God. So that on that day, Lord willing, when God judges the secrets of mens hearts I will be found blameless. What I think, say, and do....its for better or worse just a declaration and indication of who I am.

For example,

A young couple went to Europe on their honeymoon. While in Paris, France, they went to the Louvre. When they found that it was a museum of art, they hurried down one corridor after another to find the exit. As they went out, one turned to the other and said, “It is ridiculous to charge two francs to see all those old pictures!” Behind them an elderly gentleman tapped them on the shoulder and said, “I could not help overhearing what you said. I come here every day, I spend hours here. The Louvre has been here for several hundred years and when you come here, it is not on trial — you are on trial. What you think of it does not tell what the Louvre is; it does tell who you are.”

-W

How you live your life is up to you. You don't have the right to dictate how the rest of society lives just because you claim to be saved. Laws that have principles that lie in what was written in the Bible cannot be defined as 'Christian morality', lest the same laws with principles found in Buddhism, Hinduism, or Islam be considered 'Christian morality'. A cannot be B.

 

[matthewgar]

The problem stems from what idea of morality or what falls under it.

Does making laws based on Christnaity mean, outlawing evolution in schools, what about job or such? Or making laws that require creationism taught? What about banning other religions?

It seems a bit silly, but there are some attempts already for like creationism/evolution, wich won't make all Christians happy if they ban evolution, but not bannin evolution will tick off those that want it banned.

Then you have the protestant/catholic split, already orphanges won't allow those they don't agree with to adopt kids, protestant orphanges, not allowing catholics, and catholics not allowing protestant. If we fall under one type of Christianity or the other it will just tick off the rest. Wich leaves basing laws on stuff that can be universally accepted, killing, raping, stealing and such...but we already have that. So what Christian morals/laws could be made that wouldn't upset, or have a good chunk of Christians oposing or disagreeing with? It might sound good in theory, but would it ever work in practice?

 

[JediMobius]

Should Christian morality be legislated (and thus forced) upon non-Christians?

Why or why not?

1Cr 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

 

[dinonum]

1Cr 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

So how do you feel about Christian politicians who push "Christian issues"?

 

[matthewgar]

Has there been a good answer for what constitude Christians laws? Pretty much everything that isn't universally agreed upon outside of Christianity has dividing lines, except perhaps abortion, but even that has a big dividing line along how far either way it should be allowed. Some allow for rape/incest/motehrs life in danger, others find any abortions wrong. So would the laws be ones that alienate a good chunk of the Christians?

 

[dinonum]

Consider this, even Atheists have morals. Should Christian-specific morals be forced upon an Atheist?

 

[SithDoughnut]

Which Christian morality? There are lots to choose from.

 

[dinonum]

Which Christian morality? There are lots to choose from.

Biblical morality? What kind of Christian morality's do you believe exist?

 

[SithDoughnut]

Biblical morality? What kind of Christian morality's do you believe exist?

How many Christians are there? Around 2 billion? Then there are about 2 billion different moral codes within Christianity. Which one would you like?

Would you like one that hates gays or is fine with them? One that supports abortion, or one that bans it, or one that has specific criteria (you'll have to tell me the criteria if you pick that option? Would you like Biblical literalists or those that take it more metaphorically? Creationist or Evolutionist? Which denomination? OT = relevant or OT = irrelevant or OT = sort of relevant? How important is Mary supposed to be in this morality? Are we looking at a 7 day creation? What's the most important rule(s) in the Bible for this morality? How much prayer/bible reading/church involvement are you looking for? Are you after one that supports female priests or not? What gender roles are you after? Which Bible are we looking at?

That's a very small percentage of the questions we have to look at.