Christian Morality

[Velo Princesse]

As someone just pointed out in a thread I was reading, atheist morality is a 'hot topic' this week. I've been reading thread after thread about it and the fact that Christians can't seem to wrap their head around the why's and how's of morals without a deity, or more to the point, their deity. So here is my question for Christians:

Outside of the context of the Bible can you explain why rape and murder are wrong? If it weren't for your faith, would you become rapists, murderers & pedophiles? Is it the text in a book and the preaching from a pulpit that keeps you from beating your wives and homeless people?

Can you even begin to envision a thought process in which any of that is somehow okay?? Would the lack of belief make you a monster and if not, why would it make me one?

 

[ottaia]

I think most people who would be more would be moral. Those who would not want to be moral will come up with a way to dodge it. Look at the BKM (?) killer. He was a member of a Lutheran church and still bound killed and mutilated people.

 

[Velo Princesse]

I think most people who would be more would be moral. Those who would not want to be moral will come up with a way to dodge it. Look at the BKM (?) killer. He was a member of a Lutheran church and still bound killed and mutilated people.

I agree completely. My question is more about why not believing in god seems to = no morals in the eyes of christians. It makes me wonder what kind of people they really are that they need it explained to them why I wouldn't murder anyone even though I don't believe in god.

 

[John812]

The reality of good and evil is universal and isn't limited to Christians - it applies to everyone. I think that Christian morality (Jesus' teachings) is not lacking in anything. There is really no such thing as Atheist morality, because it differs from person to person. Some atheists have high morals, others have low morals. I think one of the main problems facing atheists is that each atheist creates his own morality. That process is based on personal interpretation through that persons intelligence, wisdom, experience. Some atheists however are not very intelligent, not very wise and lack the experience to create for themselves a set of morals that are good.

Other atheists don't have much time for morals, trying to get the most out of life before they die and are gone forever, so they believe. It is easy to see how that kind of thinking can squeeze morality out of the picture. "I might be dead tommorow so might as well live it up today!" - that's how it goes for many atheists.

From my experience, I generally view the lack of belief in God as going hand-in-hand with a low sense of morality. Certainly not always, but most of the time.


God bless ya!

 

[benjdm]

John812, why post in the thread if you are going to ignore every single question asked in the OP ?

Outside of the context of the Bible can you explain why rape and murder are wrong? If it weren't for your faith, would you become rapists, murderers & pedophiles? Is it the text in a book and the preaching from a pulpit that keeps you from beating your wives and homeless people?

Can you even begin to envision a thought process in which any of that is somehow okay?? Would the lack of belief make you a monster and if not, why would it make me one?

 

[John812]

I thought I answered that well in my post. Most of it was about Atheist morality and how I think it works which is what the OP was about, for Christians to talk about morality from an atheist point of view. The most important point was the first one - that good and evil is a universal reality and everyone is bound to this reality, no exceptions.


God bless ya!

 

[EdtheJesusfreak]

I thought I answered that well in my post. Most of it was about Atheist morality and how I think it works which is what the OP was about, for Christians to talk about morality from an atheist point of view. The most important point was the first one - that good and evil is a universal reality and everyone is bound to this reality, no exceptions.


God bless ya!

You did.

I would add that without religion ,weather christain or otherwise morality doesn't exist. There is no foundation left. You might be able to get away with saying that we would sustain the species, but that only eliminates murder and cannibalism. If you watch animals live on instinct they will rape, steal, and even murder to get they want.

 

[Velo Princesse]

Actually, no one has answered the question... or even touched on what was asked enough to appear to have read the OP. This time, I'll break the questions up so you can touch on them one by one...

Outside of the context of the Bible can you explain why rape and murder are wrong?

If it weren't for your faith, would you become rapists, murderers & pedophiles?

Is it the text in a book and the preaching from a pulpit that keeps you from beating your wives and homeless people?

Can you even begin to envision a thought process in which any of that is somehow okay??

Would the lack of belief make you a monster and if not, why would it make me one?

Editted to note that the person who posted first gave it a fair shot.

 

[EdtheJesusfreak]

As someone just pointed out in a thread I was reading, atheist morality is a 'hot topic' this week. I've been reading thread after thread about it and the fact that Christians can't seem to wrap their head around the why's and how's of morals without a deity, or more to the point, their deity. So here is my question for Christians:

We see the same problem in atheists.

Outside of the context of the Bible can you explain why rape and murder are wrong?

No, which is why we keep asking you the exact same question.

If it weren't for your faith, would you become rapists, murderers & pedophiles?

Currently, those things are frowned upon in our society, but without God Sodem and Gamora (sp?) came to that point.

Is it the text in a book and the preaching from a pulpit that keeps you from beating your wives and homeless people?

Pulpit, no. Text, Yes, as I mentioned before our society, particularly American, are built on these moral principals. In the same way, other societies have built their moral principals on their own religious teachings.

Can you even begin to envision a thought process in which any of that is somehow okay??

If I had no knowledge of morality I probably wouln't think too far past my own selfishness.

Would the lack of belief make you a monster

All of us have learned morality from the society we live in. There was a time when I wasn't a christian, but I knew right from wrong based on what I'd been taught. My moral standards were much lower and really only prevented me from murdering and raping. There was no motivating force to keep me from doing what was fun for me. As I also mentioned in my last post animals outside of inctsint will kill, steal, rape...etc...based on their needs and desires of the moment.

and if not, why would it make me one?

It doesn't make you any more of a monster than myself, we're all sinners. It's through Christ that we are forgiven.

Did I break down the question enough?

 

[FadingWhispers3]

Outside of the context of the Bible can you explain why rape and murder are wrong?

Certainly. They are wrong because 1. they hurt others and 2. they deprive others of liberty without their consent and without good reason (I don't know if there could be a good reason?). Also, I believe all negative actions apply a detrimental effection on some level to the actor as well.

Or from another perspective, they are wrong because society teaches the next generation that they are wrong.

If it weren't for your faith, would you become rapists, murderers & pedophiles?

Who knows that might have been? I don't know if many of the people who ended up being condemned by history set out for that very purpose. I certainly hope not. And I believe that most people have good enough reason not to do so for various reasons whether empathy or conditioning or fear of punishment or personal code of honor, etc.

Is it the text in a book and the preaching from a pulpit that keeps you from beating your wives and homeless people?

See above. Also, I think that books are interpreted by whatever already exists in a person. Therefore, an evil person will read a thing and see evil. A good person will read a thing and see good (or be encouraged towards good).

It is to be hoped that books and preaching help morality to some extent, but morality must exist beyond these things or else we are all doomed.

Can you even begin to envision a thought process in which any of that is somehow okay??

I can't understand why someone would think evil deeds are o.k. However, I have read stuff on how authority figures can goad populations into murder... this speaks nothing of why an individual might justify murder. Perhaps, it is easier for me to understand murder in the heat of the moment.

Would the lack of belief make you a monster and if not, why would it make me one?

Christians believe they are monsters already of one sort or another. Monsters in remission, monster in rehabilitation, monsters in restoration. Or if not monsters, partly monsterous. Or monsterous in part. But even monsters need love.

As for whether my belief makes you a monster, I say no such thing. Only your beliefs and your actions decide whether you are a monster or no. I hope people have it in themselves to dictate whether they will be a monster or not, but I have a sinking feeling that part of that may be beyond our control. A frightening thing no? That maybe the monsters themselves never wanted to become monsters...

 

[Velo Princesse]

Outside of the context of the Bible can you explain why rape and murder are wrong?

Certainly. They are wrong because 1. they hurt others and 2. they deprive others of liberty without their consent and without good reason (I don't know if there could be a good reason?). Also, I believe all negative actions apply a detrimental effection on some level to the actor as well.

Or from another perspective, they are wrong because society teaches the next generation that they are wrong.

If it weren't for your faith, would you become rapists, murderers & pedophiles?

Who knows that might have been? I don't know if many of the people who ended up being condemned by history set out for that very purpose. I certainly hope not. And I believe that most people have good enough reason not to do so for various reasons whether empathy or conditioning or fear of punishment or personal code of honor, etc.

Is it the text in a book and the preaching from a pulpit that keeps you from beating your wives and homeless people?

See above. Also, I think that books are interpreted by whatever already exists in a person. Therefore, an evil person will read a thing and see evil. A good person will read a thing and see good (or be encouraged towards good).

It is to be hoped that books and preaching help morality to some extent, but morality must exist beyond these things or else we are all doomed.

Can you even begin to envision a thought process in which any of that is somehow okay??

I can't understand why someone would think evil deeds are o.k. However, I have read stuff on how authority figures can goad populations into murder... this speaks nothing of why an individual might justify murder. Perhaps, it is easier for me to understand murder in the heat of the moment.

Would the lack of belief make you a monster and if not, why would it make me one?

Christians believe they are monsters already of one sort or another. Monsters in remission, monster in rehabilitation, monsters in restoration. Or if not monsters, partly monsterous. Or monsterous in part. But even monsters need love.

As for whether my belief makes you a monster, I say no such thing. Only your beliefs and your actions decide whether you are a monster or no. I hope people have it in themselves to dictate whether they will be a monster or not, but I have a sinking feeling that part of that may be beyond our control. A frightening thing no? That maybe the monsters themselves never wanted to become monsters...

So, if all of that makes sense to you, which I assume it does since you articulate it so well, why does atheist morality keep coming up? A monster will be a monster regardless as pointed out regarding the BTK killer.

 

[FadingWhispers3]

why does atheist morality keep coming up? A monster will be a monster regardless as pointed out regarding the BTK killer.

For some christians, the very concept of atheist morals does not compute much like I cannot compute a square circle. They ask perhaps in true confusion, in hopes to know.

Who knows what people think? People are like mazes that have no exists.

 

[Niels]

Where is the problem with Atheists being moral? Surely there are Atheists who are more moral than myself, just as there are Atheists who are less moral. Christian salvation is not based on the irreproachable morals of the believers. Quite the opposite, interestingly enough. Ever hear the song Amazing Grace? Think about the words. Christ sacrificed himself for the sinful, not the sinless (though I've never met a sinless person). Moral Atheists? I don't see a contradiction there.

As far as morality is concerned, my approach to the subject is probably similar to that of many atheists (largely pragmatic). However, I believe that biblical teachings (see Proverbs, if you have a Bible) give us a head start. At its most basic, a sin is something that hurts ourself or others... something foolish in the grand scheme of things. Sure it's possible to play with fire and not get burned, but it certainly helps to know that it can burn you, so you're less likely to do something stupid with it. Some follow their beliefs without question, but they're as likely to benefit from following them them as those of us who question. You don't need to understand the exact chemical process of fire in order to benefit from learning not to stick your hand in it.

 

[Phinehas]

Outside of the context of the Bible can you explain why rape and murder are wrong?

I'd say that it was against the universal moral absolutes God gave humanity, but if you don't belive in that go to the next question.

If it weren't for your faith, would you become rapists, murderers & pedophiles?

Yep.

Is it the text in a book and the preaching from a pulpit that keeps you from beating your wives and homeless people?

Hmm, not sure about the wife (don't have one -go figure), but I think I'd only beat homeless people that either irritated or amused me.

Can you even begin to envision a thought process in which any of that is somehow okay??

Yep.
If there's actually no eternal moral accountibility to anyone, why shoud I give a f***?

Would the lack of belief make you a monster and if not, why would it make me one?

Read my previous comments. I'll let you be the judge whether I'd be a monster or no.

P.S. I know of quite a few non-Christians with great morals and deeds, but that's not what it takes to be reconciled to God. Not even those with "good" morals and actions get to heaven because of it. If only the "moral" got into heaven, would that be fair to the immoral? What if God only allowed the "smart" people into heaven? That's not fair to the stupid. Or how about just the good looking? Not fair to the ugly people. Just the rich?- not fair to poor. Just the poor? -not fair to the rich.
God has the same standard for everyone, sinless perfection. Fortunately, He gives the standard to anyone who's willing to accept what He paid for it and drop their own. It's really up to you whether you want it or not.

 

[Velo Princesse]

Where is the problem with Atheists being moral? Surely there are Atheists who are more moral than myself, just as there are Atheists who are less moral. Christian salvation is not based on the irreproachable morals of the believers. Quite the opposite, interestingly enough. Ever hear the song Amazing Grace? Think about the words. Christ sacrificed himself for the sinful, not the sinless (though I've never met a sinless person). Moral Atheists? I don't see a contradiction there.

As far as morality is concerned, my approach to the subject is probably similar to that of many atheists (largely pragmatic). However, I believe that biblical teachings (see Proverbs, if you have a Bible) give us a head start. At its most basic, a sin is something that hurts ourself or others... something foolish in the grand scheme of things. Sure it's possible to play with fire and not get burned, but it certainly helps to know that it can burn you, so you're less likely to do something stupid with it. Some follow their beliefs without question, but they're as likely to benefit from following them them as those of us who question. You don't need to understand the exact chemical process of fire in order to benefit from learning not to stick your hand in it.

Right, and yet the atheist morality question has been posted in one form or another on this site over and over in the past week. Plus, all of the times I've seen it in the past. It just seems like people don't get the concept of being moral without believing in God. Notice also, that this thread hasn't gotten nearly the exercise that a similiarly titled thread about atheists got. See my point? For some reason, even though I can't think of many murderers, women who've killed their children, or pedaphiles who aren't also refered to in their given news story as church going people the question always seems to be about atheist morals as if we don't have any. From where I'm sitting it seems as though moral issues generally fall on the other side of the fence. Obviously, I'm not refering to every christian I know, but I hardly hear of horrible and disgusting crimes that were acted out by an atheist person. Not saying that there aren't any, because obviously there are, but it seems very rare in comparison to the same crimes commited by people who claim to be Christian.

 

[Phinehas]

See my point? For some reason, even though I can't think of many murderers, women who've killed their children, or pedaphiles who aren't also refered to in their given news story as church going people the question always seems to be about atheist morals as if we don't have any. From where I'm sitting it seems as though moral issues generally fall on the other side of the fence. Obviously, I'm not refering to every christian I know, but I hardly hear of horrible and disgusting crimes that were acted out by an atheist person. Not saying that there aren't any, because obviously there are, but it seems very rare in comparison to the same crimes commited by people who claim to be Christian.

Ever heard of Stalin? -50 million of his own people. Not Christian.
Hitler? -who knows how many? Not Christian.
Pol Pot? Not Christian.
Saddam Hussein? Not Christian.
etcetera, etcetera.

Yes all the crimes you speak of by people who claim to be Christian. Thanks for saying it.
Hmm. Maybe we should round up all the con artists who've swindled anyone out of any money and the legitimate people from every occupation the con artists claim to be in, and have them all arrested.

Is it easier to get into someone's house and/or out of jail by saying "I'm a Christian", or "I'm a rapist"?

 

[benjdm]

Phinehas: I hope you never de-convert !

 

[Niels]

Right, and yet the atheist morality question has been posted in one form or another on this site over and over in the past week. Plus, all of the times I've seen it in the past. It just seems like people don't get the concept of being moral without believing in God. Notice also, that this thread hasn't gotten nearly the exercise that a similiarly titled thread about atheists got. See my point?

I hear you. As someone who only visits this section of CF from time to time, I thought I'd speak up on this one. Believe me, I 'get the concept' of people being moral regardless of their faith or lack thereof.

For some reason, even though I can't think of many murderers, women who've killed their children, or pedaphiles who aren't also refered to in their given news story as church going people the question always seems to be about atheist morals as if we don't have any. From where I'm sitting it seems as though moral issues generally fall on the other side of the fence. Obviously, I'm not refering to every christian I know, but I hardly hear of horrible and disgusting crimes that were acted out by an atheist person. Not saying that there aren't any, because obviously there are, but it seems very rare in comparison to the same crimes commited by people who claim to be Christian.

That's not surprising. There are more professed Christians than Atheists. It follows that, other things being equal, we would still hear about more Christians commiting such crimes. This may also explain why we rarely hear about great Atheist humanitarians (can you name one?), though they certainly exist. There simply aren't as many Atheists.

 

[benjdm]

This may also explain why we rarely hear about great Atheist humanitarians (can you name one?)

Lance Armstrong. Bill Gates (alright, maybe he is more agnostic, but I got 2 in ~30 seconds)

 

[Velo Princesse]

Ever heard of Stalin? -50 million of his own people. Not Christian.
Hitler? -who knows how many? Not Christian.
Pol Pot? Not Christian.
Saddam Hussein? Not Christian.
etcetera, etcetera.

Yes all the crimes you speak of by people who claim to be Christian. Thanks for saying it.
Hmm. Maybe we should round up all the con artists who've swindled anyone out of any money and the legitimate people from every occupation the con artists claim to be in, and have them all arrested.

Is it easier to get into someone's house and/or out of jail by saying "I'm a Christian", or "I'm a rapist"?

"Hence today I believe I am acting in accordance to the will of the Almighty Creator. By defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord" Mein Kampf AKA- Hitler

You might not like it, but Hitler was a Christian and spoke openly about it.

Maybe to you he only claimed to be a Christian, and the lady who killed all of her kids a few years ago because God told her to only claimed to be a Christian but the fact is to the whole rest of the world they WERE/ARE Christian. You can't decide later that because some one did something they shouldn't have they weren't Christian.

On top of which, my point was that people keep talking on this site about the moral implications of being atheist, but never seem to pay attention to the devout Christian who abuses children. 9 out of ever 10 incidents I hear on the news regarding such things are about a Christian who did them. It's simple math really... In a country where 83% of the people are either Protestant Christian or Catholic, and less than 5% are atheist, it is fairly safe to say that most of the crimes you would hear about on the news, and most of those you don't, are done by people who believe in God as opposed to those who don't.

In either case, my point was more that everyone seems so focused on Atheist morals, when if you watch the news most of the people commiting horrible crimes can be found in church on Sunday, or synogoge on Saturday or where ever Muslims go on whatever day they go. Sorry if that bothers you... quite frankly, it bothers me too.

Oh- I didn't mean to single out Christians. When I said 'the other side of the fence' I was refering to those who believe in god on one side, and those who don't on the other. Sorry if it seemed like that was directed at Christians. I forget sometimes that you guys think your the only ones over there.