Christian involvement in war.

[Jesusfreak303]

Does anyone ever wonder what they would do if they were called to take up arms for their country? Would you refuse even though it could mean imprisonment? Or would you gladly answer the call because you feel that in some situations violence and the use of arms is justified?

I have been a soldier in Canada's armed forces for just over three years now and luckily I have only had to defend myself from theological attacks like "Jesus tells us to turn the other cheek when struck" and the stereotypical "Soldiers are baby killers" mentality.

I apologize if this thread has already been discussed elsewhere in this forum.

Have a good day!

303.

 

[Ailanthus]

I personally would not go to war for one simple reason: I don't want the guilt of possibly sending an unsaved soul to hell. Now, don't get me wrong, I support all of those who are fighting right now to defend our country. Sadly, war is a necessity.

 

[The Gregorian]

simple fact. God said not to kill. I will not kill. I don't care if the president comes to my house and says he'll give me a million dollars to take a SINGLE enemy life... No one can tell me to knowingly disobay God.

I don't claim to be perfect by any means... but I will NOT go out of my way to murder someone.... especially for no other reason than the greed of this country.

 

[Jesusfreak303]

Some more fuel to the fire...

I have been told (humourously) that we (in North America) would probably be speaking German if the Allies did not involve themselves in defeating the Nazi regime.

Also, I have been asked "What would you do if someone broke into your house and threatened your family with violence?"

So far, I have concluded that I can only rely on God to keep me from situations where I might have to take someone's life in my own self defence.

 

[Subordinationist]

"Christian involvement in war" is wrong. War cares not for the people, it is a means to an end. A means of aggression, hate, anger, and fear to the glorious Hill of Victory. We should be reminded, Jesus achieved the most stupendous and majestic victory ever, in the acts of crucifixion and resurrection; a victory over victories. A victory so powerful, that war itself was no longer necessary for those who loved God, outlawed, in fact. Physical death was conquered, spiritual death was conquered. Hell, demons, satan, evil, sin; all of it conquered. Jesus taught, even before this, of love of enemies, the value of suffering, the inheritence of the peacemakers and the meek and the poor. The mere presence of Christ on earth sprang forth the dizzying thrill of peace, the immense wealth of poverty, and the warm-hearted care for vicious foes.



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[The Gregorian]

Some more fuel to the fire...

I have been told (humourously) that we (in North America) would probably be speaking German if the Allies did not involve themselves in defeating the Nazi regime.

Also, I have been asked "What would you do if someone broke into your house and threatened your family with violence?"

LOL I LOOOVE when they say that.
A: I'm of german ancestory, and I speak german... are they trying to say that if we had lost we'd speak german, and thusly be nazis? Therefore are all those who speak german a nazi? Therefore am I a nazi? Therefore because I LIKE jews, does that mean Nazis liked jews? I'm straying.....

B: Nazis aside when our founding fathers were voting as to which language would be america's "official" language, they only voted for english over german by something like 2 votes.

C: (to the other part) Early in american history... oh, I don't know... about the time of the revolution... the biggest world power at the time (England) attacked our country to try to force their system of government upon us... Those who fought against them were patriots, and heros. Now that we don't like iraq's political beliefs and they're defending themselves against a COMPLETELY unprovoked attack... we call all those who are fighting for their freedom "insurgents." more than a year after the dictator was thrown out of office and it was decided that bush DIRECTLY LIED to us saying he "had evidence that iraq had weapons of mass distruction" we're still killing iraqis... so they can be free from Saddam.... who we captured... and released without harming him at all...

But Saddam was a BAD guy! He killed his own people... so we killed his people and detained him temporarily! then killed more of his people so they could be safe from him...

Honestly is there ANYONE in this country with some sort of realization of what irony is?

 

[coreXian]

I wouldn't say "COMPLETELY unprovoked" by any means . . . However, in response to the OP, I'm a little torn over this question; especially in light of the OT, since our God is never changing. Even if it was OK, I'm certain it wouldn't be the BEST option. If we Christians were all doing what we're supposed to as far as spreading the Gospel, would there be a need for war?

 

[Trizm]

No way christian involvement in war is okay. How can i follow jesus and kill others. Jesus said to turn the other cheek but now the image of war has been perverted. There is this notion of a "just war". First i say that there is no such thing as a just war. The problem is we are not just defending ourselves, we are the attacking country, we claim to be doing good by killing other people when that is totally wrong. This country is totally screwed up and we will do anything to get our hands on some wealth. We go and put people in imminent danger who have to kill just to protect their own lives. At least we are told we are defending ourselves but America has been on the attack??? It sucks that we can still say that it is okay for a christian to support war. Look i already know that saddam was a bad guy but that isnt the reason we decided to send people to die. We thought we were in imminent danger and now are rationale for fighting is, "Well at least we got Saddam". Really I dont want to kill other people in the name of God and doing good.
Besides we are only perpetuating the cycle seriously, think about lets say this: you know somebody getting bullied, so then you beat up the guy now what happens? he comes back with his friends and beats you up. So you get some allies and beat them. Now tell me which ones were the christians???

 

[Cabes]

I think being a soldier in WW2 with the allies would have been a just cause. I don't think lives for oil is a just cause. If the bush administration didn't give the weapons to Iraq in the first place......

So far, I have concluded that I can only rely on God to keep me from situations where I might have to take someone's life in my own self defence.

This is wise as the God we serve is more powerful then we can ever imagine. I think conscription at this stage is highly unlikely, but If you are in the army I think that your spirit would know when the cause you are willing to kill for is right or wrong.

 

[Dukey]

Does anyone ever wonder what they would do if they were called to take up arms for their country? Would you refuse even though it could mean imprisonment? Or would you gladly answer the call because you feel that in some situations violence and the use of arms is justified?

I have been a soldier in Canada's armed forces for just over three years now and luckily I have only had to defend myself from theological attacks like "Jesus tells us to turn the other cheek when struck" and the stereotypical "Soldiers are baby killers" mentality.

I apologize if this thread has already been discussed elsewhere in this forum.

Have a good day!

303.

they killed a lotta people in the old testament....so god says that its okay

 

[12volt_man]

Does anyone ever wonder what they would do if they were called to take up arms for their country? Would you refuse even though it could mean imprisonment? Or would you gladly answer the call because you feel that in some situations violence and the use of arms is justified?

I have been a soldier in Canada's armed forces for just over three years now and luckily I have only had to defend myself from theological attacks like "Jesus tells us to turn the other cheek when struck" and the stereotypical "Soldiers are baby killers" mentality.

I apologize if this thread has already been discussed elsewhere in this forum.

Have a good day!

303.

I would go and I would fight vigorously and aggressively.

 

[12volt_man]

I personally would not go to war for one simple reason: I don't want the guilt of possibly sending an unsaved soul to hell.

I don't know quite how to break this to you, but you don't have the authority to send anyone to Hell.

Now, don't get me wrong, I support all of those who are fighting right now to defend our country. Sadly, war is a necessity.

So, it's OK if they send somebody to Hell?

 

[Emmy]

Dear Jesusfreak,after reading all replies,may I give mine too?Sadly we live in an imperfect world,and wars will take place.We are told by God to obey the Government of the land(unless it is against God),Jesus told us:"Who will lift up the sword,must be expected to be killed by it."America is a Christian country and was attacked by enemies of Christ,Mr. Bush is a Christian and he is trying to rid the world of terrorism.and if there are men who do not want to kill,because their conscience forbids it,they will still have a chance to help rid their countries of a pitiless enemy.Just image,if the terrorist get the upper hand,would they treat the men and women who believe differently,would they treat them with kindness and tolerance?And is it not better to fight before the terrorists become too powerful?I am a Christian and I abhor all killings,but can you,or anyone else think of a different solution?I know that many,many Christians are praying for a speedy end of this most unwanted state of affairs.Sincere greetings from Emmy,a sister in Christ.

 

[Jesusfreak303]

Thank you for your consideration Emmy. I value your reply and the the replies of anyone else. Unfortuantely, I believe that there are people in this world who cannot be negotiated with in a civilized manner because they feel that their god tells them to destroy anyone who does not share their beliefs, or who have other motivations which tend to promote violence. I am reminded of a question that my brother asked me recently "So as a Christian, you would be forced to stand by and watch someone who violently attacks people that you love because responding would mean acting in a way that some would consider to be unChristlike?" I answered certainly not. Doesn't the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" refer only to the shedding of innocent blood in murder, rather than the blood that was shed in the process of the commanded sacrifices?

On the other hand, are we not all responsible for our actions upon this earth? Meaning that no matter what the cost, we are to uphold Christ's command to turn the other cheek in the face of provocation? Do you think that we are called to look past the violence and sinfulness of this world because eternity in heaven awaits those who believe in faith that Jesus is the Christ is God who has come in the flesh?

I give my thanks to everyone who is willing to invest their thoughts and reply to this issue that seems to be so prevalent in our day and age.

Have a good day! Merry Christmas!

 

[Subordinationist]

Dear Jesusfreak,after reading all replies,may I give mine too?Sadly we live in an imperfect world,and wars will take place.We are told by God to obey the Government of the land(unless it is against God),Jesus told us:"Who will lift up the sword,must be expected to be killed by it."America is a Christian country and was attacked by enemies of Christ,Mr. Bush is a Christian and he is trying to rid the world of terrorism.and if there are men who do not want to kill,because their conscience forbids it,they will still have a chance to help rid their countries of a pitiless enemy.Just image,if the terrorist get the upper hand,would they treat the men and women who believe differently,would they treat them with kindness and tolerance?And is it not better to fight before the terrorists become too powerful?I am a Christian and I abhor all killings,but can you,or anyone else think of a different solution?I know that many,many Christians are praying for a speedy end of this most unwanted state of affairs.Sincere greetings from Emmy,a sister in Christ.

America is not a Christian nation, even though there is a large percentage of Christians who live here. The United States government is secular humanist. It has outlawed prayer, Christian symbols, and Bible reading in PUBLIC places. It constantly goes to war, interferres in countless forgien governmental affairs that should be left up to the people, and it has a policy of economic and cultural imperialism. Bush is not a Christian, he is a religious pluralist, a manipulating politician, and a puppet of the Elite and industrial-commercial complex, similar to all US presidents of the past few decades.

The Bush Record

There is an alternative to killing, its called love. His name is Jesus, who says to love your enemies, do good to those who persecute you, over come evil with good, repay bad with good, and suffer injury. Is world peace possible? No, not without God's intervention and the return of Christ. The purpose of Christian love is to spread peace as far as possible, whether that is 5,000 miles or only 5 feet, doesn't matter. The principle of it is what counts. Christianity is not practical.

If a nation wants to have security and be as righteous as possible, Switzerland has the answer: mandatory universal gun ownership.


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[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

simple fact. God said not to kill. I will not kill. I don't care if the president comes to my house and says he'll give me a million dollars to take a SINGLE enemy life... No one can tell me to knowingly disobay God.

I don't claim to be perfect by any means... but I will NOT go out of my way to murder someone.... especially for no other reason than the greed of this country.

Simple fact, God said not to murder, not kill. Poor translation can be fatal...

God sent joshua into Cannan and brutally killed them since they would not become slaves to the Jews.

God says not to kill? I think differently, not to mention he allowed for his son to be killed. A sacrifice, no doubt, but that is also what soldiers are doing- sacrificing.

Every christian, unless incapable by means other than religion, should go to war just as much as anyone else.

I work with my army recruiter sometimes, and he has me make calls. It is amazing how many Jehova Witnesses I get answering the phone saying it is against their religion to go to war. It always makes me very angry and I simply ask them, "Well, what if this whole nation were Jehova Witnesses?"

I think I have always been hung up on.

Course, I also think every male (women if they want to) should have the obligation of doing 2 years of civil duty whether it be military, doctor, police officer, fire fighter, environmental, etc.

Maybe I am just not senseative to some peoples understandings, but maybe other people are too naive.

sorry, my rant is done.

 

[Gracchus]

Someone once said, "Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God."

Now he could have said, "Blessed are the warriors...", but it is not on record he did. I wonder whose children he would have said the war makers are. Of course he may have had in mind the idea expressed by a historian about the Roman legions: "They made a desert and they called it peace."

The basic question, it seems to me, is whether we are ever justified in delivering our power of moral choice into the hands of the state. I may or may not believe in the necessity of going to war. If I choose not to go, my neighbors may shun me, my family may cast me out, and my government may kill or imprison me; but, if I believe God is my judge, ought I to consider any other judge? Which is the greater evil in the eyes of God: to suffer a blow without returning it, or to strike a blow because I am ordered to strike under threat of retribution? Is it more moral to kill an innocent person or to be killed myself for refusing?

I am asking as a non-Christian.

 

[Gracchus]

Simple fact, God said not to murder, not kill. Poor translation can be fatal...

Obviously! LOL. Actually the word seems to mean willful homicide. Murder can be and has been variously defined in human laws.

God sent joshua into Cannan and brutally killed them since they would not become slaves to the Jews.

God says not to kill? I think differently, not to mention he allowed for his son to be killed. A sacrifice, no doubt, but that is also what soldiers are doing- sacrificing.

You realize, of course, that some would despise such a god? And can we die well in an evil cause?

Every christian, unless incapable by means other than religion, should go to war just as much as anyone else.

Are you certain? Might that opinion be contested by honest persons?

I work with my army recruiter sometimes, and he has me make calls. It is amazing how many Jehova Witnesses I get answering the phone saying it is against their religion to go to war. It always makes me very angry and I simply ask them, "Well, what if this whole nation were Jehova Witnesses?"

I have been told that God judges us on our intentions, and not on the unintended consequences of our actions. And if we were slain to the last man, woman and child rather than kill the innocent, how would God judge us? Are we obliged to defend our own innocents at the cost of killing other innocents? In either case, evil is done, and the innocents are dead, but in the latter case we have added our own evil. Is that not a greater evil? Would it not be better to refrain from evil ourselves, lest we exacerbate the evil done by others?

I think I have always been hung up on.

Why should they try to argue? I always try to make time for the Witnesses who come to my door, but I cannot fault those who simply don't want to be bothered. And I cannot fault Witnesses who feel likewise.

Course, I also think every male (women if they want to) should have the obligation of doing 2 years of civil duty whether it be military, doctor, police officer, fire fighter, environmental, etc.

There is something that can be said for this. And alternative service is available under the law, if some judge allows it.

Maybe I am just not senseative to some peoples understandings, but maybe other people are too naive.

Perhaps some are too convinced of their own righteousness.

sorry, my rant is done.

Te absolvo, Deo gratias.

 

[Mustaphile]

Someone once said, "Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God."

Now he could have said, "Blessed are the warriors...", but it is not on record he did. I wonder whose children he would have said the war makers are. Of course he may have had in mind the idea expressed by a historian about the Roman legions: "They made a desert and they called it peace."

The basic question, it seems to me, is whether we are ever justified in delivering our power of moral choice into the hands of the state. I may or may not believe in the necessity of going to war. If I choose not to go, my neighbors may shun me, my family may cast me out, and my government may kill or imprison me; but, if I believe God is my judge, ought I to consider any other judge? Which is the greater evil in the eyes of God: to suffer a blow without returning it, or to strike a blow because I am ordered to strike under threat of retribution? Is it more moral to kill an innocent person or to be killed myself for refusing?

I am asking as a non-Christian.

It's good that the buddhists understand, Gracchus

I'm not picking up any guns to go shoot anyone. If I have to pay a price for that, then so be it. My life is a small price to pay in the name of obedience to my Lord, who stand in authority over and above every worldly authority. When it comes to a choice on which authority to obey, I have one master, and there is no question as to which kingdom I am a citizen of. I am a citizen of the kingdom of God and Jesus Christ, my leader, has led by example and shown the way. I follow his example and do not kill, even if it means being flogged, stabbed, humiliated, beaten up, being nailed to a cross and dying! That's the example he set. That's the example I aspire to. Nothing less.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

Obviously! LOL. Actually the word seems to mean willful homicide. Murder can be and has been variously defined in human laws.

True

You realize, of course, that some would despise such a god? And can we die well in an evil cause?

True, but I am not willing to debate that just yet.... spent way to much time debating this with my World religions: Peace/Violence class.

Are you certain? Might that opinion be contested by honest persons?

Ummm... maybe? Not sure exactly what you mean.

I have been told that God judges us on our intentions, and not on the unintended consequences of our actions. And if we were slain to the last man, woman and child rather than kill the innocent, how would God judge us? Are we obliged to defend our own innocents at the cost of killing other innocents? In either case, evil is done, and the innocents are dead, but in the latter case we have added our own evil. Is that not a greater evil? Would it not be better to refrain from evil ourselves, lest we exacerbate the evil done by others?

What is more evil... Letting evil do it's will (murdering), or doing the minimum (if it does involve killing) to sacrifice ones self for another.

Why should they try to argue? I always try to make time for the Witnesses who come to my door, but I cannot fault those who simply don't want to be bothered. And I cannot fault Witnesses who feel likewise.

When our nation, and others that J.W.'s should care about will be "bothered", I think they are in need of such a question.

There is something that can be said for this. And alternative service is available under the law, if some judge allows it.

True as well.

Perhaps some are too convinced of their own righteousness.

I would call that pride. I am convinced that there is an absolute truth, but my mentallity has only picked up one what seems to be reasonably and lovingly true on a basic scale regarding ALL of Gods words as opposed to just one secting i.e. the sermon on the mount. It all needs to be taken into consideration, and application.

Te absolvo, Deo gratias.

heh, um, Godbless!