Christian Humanism

[challenger]

Apart from grace, we are guilty of breaking God's impossilby high standards.

If the standards are impossibly high, then by definition its hardly my fault for falling short of them, God would have known that from the start.

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

If the standards are impossibly high, then by definition its hardly my fault for falling short of them, God would have known that from the start.

Romans 3:5 But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) 6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world? 7 But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8 And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.


Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

 

[challenger]

Romans 3:5 But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) 6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world? 7 But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8 And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.


Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

No offense mate, but that's not going to work as a debating technique you know. You might believe the Bible and I respect your right to that, but I don't, I prefer to use my own reason.

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

No offense mate, but that's not going to work as a debating technique you know. You might believe the Bible and I respect your right to that, but I don't, I prefer to use my own reason.

I stated in a previous post that I find it very hard to discuss my views without citing scripture. In the case of the above, I felt no need to make comments because I believe those scriptures speak for themself. No offence taken

 

[kitoba]

Let's summarize what we know.

Jesus calls us all to be "perfect as God is perfect"
Paul (quite reasonably) points out that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". To put it another way, if falling short of the glory of God is a sin, then all have sinned.
However, Jesus says "forgive and you will be forgiven"
In other words, as long as we extend forgiveness to others, we are forgiven.

The only exception is if we "blaspheme against the Holy Spirit" which I interpret as meaning, if we have a direct experience of God's love and we discount or discredit it, which amounts to our rejection of the love God extends to us.

I see the passages you quoted as illuminating what is summarized above, not as indicating "total depravity," whatever that might be.

I would agree with you that there is no good in anything, except what comes from God. But I would say that God is at work in all of us all the time, whether we know it or not.

I know little about Calvinism, but I know that one of the stereotypes is that it has a grim and joyless view of existence.

That might not seem to be a significant barrier to validity, but I think it is one. How can there be good things --such as joy --in God's creation without them partaking in the goodness of God?

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

I am going to focus my very brief (for it is late) post on the following sentance.

However, Jesus says "forgive and you will be forgiven"
In other words, as long as we extend forgiveness to others, we are forgiven.

but what about Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

or Acts 2:37b and [they] said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Here we have three verses that seem to say something different about salvation. Is it by forgiving others? Or believing on Jesus as Lord, or repenting?

Without going into too much detail, I think what Jesus is saying is that if you have true faith, and are one of the flock, you will realise the great debt Christ paid for you and will therefore forgive your bretheren. Consider this parable in Matthew 18.

21 Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven. [7]

23 “Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. [8] 24 When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. [9] 25 And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 So the servant [10] fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ 27 And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, [11] and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay what you owe.’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ 30 He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. 31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. 32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, [12] until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

 

[Polycarp1]

"God's impossibly high standards" are there for two reasons: (1) as ideals toward which we are to aspire, not as rules that we are required to keep, in order that (2) we are to acknowledge our indebtedness to God's grace. In other words, we cannot satisfy God's expectations on our own, but only with His help.

I don't see this as in any way contrary to a humanist ethics -- only to the apparent secular humanist metaphysic that "Man is the measure of all things." (I am prepared to accept correction from someone better schooled in humanist metaphysics on whether that is accurate as applied to secular humanism.) But I defy anyone to find a way in which Christ's own words as I listed them above conflict with humanist ethics. (Granted that some people's interpretations of them may so conflict.)

 

[seebs]

Christianity demands that we love other people as perfectly as we can. Humanism, by contrast, demands that we love other people as perfectly as we can.

The contrast is subtle, to put it mildly.

 

[kitoba]

@ Wilfred:

I'm not suggesting that it's unimportant to follow Christ --if I thought that I wouldn't be a Christian. But I disagree with "total depravity" because I believe God is at work in our lives whether we acknowledge him or not.

I'm a Christian first, but after that I'm a humanist, because for me that answers the question "what do I do AFTER I'm saved?" -- [tongue in cheek] I mean, other than meditate on my own worthlessness! [/tongue in cheek]

"God's impossibly high standards" are there for two reasons: (1) as ideals toward which we are to aspire, not as rules that we are required to keep, in order that (2) we are to acknowledge our indebtedness to God's grace. In other words, we cannot satisfy God's expectations on our own, but only with His help.

That's a really great way of explaining it. I'm going to have to remember that...

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

@ Wilfred:

I'm not suggesting that it's unimportant to follow Christ --if I thought that I wouldn't be a Christian. But I disagree with "total depravity" because I believe God is at work in our lives whether we acknowledge him or not.

I'm a Christian first, but after that I'm a humanist, because for me that answers the question "what do I do AFTER I'm saved?" -- [tongue in cheek] I mean, other than meditate on my own worthlessness! [/tongue in cheek]

You and I really don't have much of a disagreement on views. You say that "God is at work in our lives" as your reason for not believing Total Depravity. But what you are missing is that is the point of Total Depravity. that we are only good in that God is working in us. I can point to verses that show that God is also at work to some extent in the wicked. I believe that God loves all of His creation, but not all to the same extent. The passages of Romans 1 say that God restrains our wickedness to some extent. However, when we deny Him, God lets go of and leaves us to our own wicked nature to do that which is not convienient.

We can both also point from the sermon of the mount that God is gracious to an extent to the wicked as well, for He lets the sun shine on the just and unjust, and gives rain to the just and the unjust.


I don't necessarily meditate on my own worthlessness. Having sorrow for your sins and nature is the proper attitude, but we must move on and accept grace and mercy and strive for God's standards. Polycarp1 said it well. We aren't expected to live perfectly to God's standards, but apart from Christ's righteousness, those are the standards by which we will be judged.

 

[Starstreak M86]

Kitoba,
Hey!

Hmm...you've actually intrigued me, and now I am interested in Christian Humanism!

You're okay in my book.