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Christian Forums Under New Management

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SallyNow

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I hope private staff forums aren't permanent. One of the great changes Erwin made was removing the veil of secrecy. lets not take a step backwards in that department.

I agree.

I'm going to be the downer in this thread and say that I'm neutral to the changes until we see how they are actually applied. The new rules appear to be good and sound. Clear, concise.

I like that the Wiki is staying in some form, for member input. While I respect the owner of this site, if anyone is trying to create a community they must get input from said community. Not necessarly follow it to a "t", but at least get input.

I'm not sure of the idea of focusing on inreach instead of outreach. I'm also weary that it might discourage discussion between Christians, non-Christians, Unorthodox Christians, etc. But, it might also open up discussion. We won't know till it happens.

I'm worried that this might be taken as an opportunity to create an exclusive "club" where there is an "us and them" and the interaction between "us and them" is stalled. This is a concern because it is shift away from the 7/7/7 rules. I think the new focus in itself, so far as we've been told, is not condusive to an "us vs them" mentality, but sometimes the pendulum swings one way and then far back the other, instead of to the middle.

So, overall, I'm guess I'm neutral verging on optomistic, but it all depends on how it turns out in practice rather than theory.

A forum is what the members make of it, and what the members can make of it depends on the leader. :wave:
 
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Called2Grace

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Fish & Bread - off topic in a social way will not be a problem. It's the intentional derailment (which I think we all have a pretty good idea where the line is) that is the issue.

You know, like if in every post I complained about a presidenti or something.
But if this is the case it needs to be more clearly stipulated in the rule. I don't really think that there should be such requirements placed on the subgroups.

I think what you are referring to is trolling?

Subgroups should be able to discuss whatever they feel appropriate within their threads, there is no need for a rule stipulating what can and cannot be discussed.

I am also wary of no longer having a say in who becomes a moderator.
 
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mnphysicist

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Forums may use their existing guidelines to identify what is cool to post, and what is not. If folks go outside of those guidelines, its really posting off topic to the forum.

Then the following rule
Threads which are off topic for the individual forums are not allowed, and substantial derails ot threads are not looked upon in a favorable fashion.

would apply.
 
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Called2Grace

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Forums may use their existing guidelines to identify what is cool to post, and what is not. If folks go outside of those guidelines, its really posting off topic to the forum.

Then the following rule


would apply.
Well that needs to preface the rule, otherwise it has the potential to be misused and misinterpreted.
 
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Called2Grace

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I'm kinda with that, on the sole basis that not knowing exactly what the staff is doing makes me nervous, but can understand staff needing some privacy to work things out that isn't in front of members too.
If there are certain issues that need to be discussed fine, but the report threads at least should remain open.
 
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drunkard

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Taken overall, everything you’ve outlined seems pretty reasonable.

As an unbeliever, though, I do see three areas of concern.

First:

[*]Create private staff forums to discuss staff structure and policy going forward.

What do you mean by private?

If you mean forums that anybody can read, but only mods are allowed to post, I’d support that fully. On a site with as many members as this, the mods need a place to discuss administrative business without being drowned out by members’ posts.

If you mean forums that are accessible only to mods – that raises a red flag. Secrecy encourages cliquish behavior, as well as arbitrary and uneven enforcement of the rules.


Second:

Honest debate and discussion regarding the existence and nature of God is allowed and welcome. Mockery of Christians, Christians beliefs, and the Christian God are not.


What constitutes mockery, and where is the line drawn between ‘honest debate’ and ‘mockery’? Is asking for credible evidence of God or certain beliefs about God considered mockery? Is questioning aspects of the testimony of a believer mockery? Is poking holes in the assertions of Creationists mockery?


Third:

[*]Promotion of the religion or rituals of Satanism is strictly prohibited. Promotion is defined as the active attempt to sway others to Satanic beliefs and/or practices.

This one just seems weird to me. I’ve been here for a couple of years, and I can’t recall (granted, I do spend most of my time here in the C&E and GA sections, so I may have missed something) anyone ever claiming to worship the Christian “Satan.” This leads me to worry about what might be considered “Satanic beliefs.” Will atheism be considered Satanic? The accepted conclusions of mainstream biology and/or geology? The beliefs of non-Christian theists? Or even non-Nicene Christian denominations?


As I said: taken as a whole, this all seems pretty reasonable.

But I respectfully request some clarification in the three areas that I have highlighted.
 
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Amoranemix

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I disagree with most of the proposed changes, but I won’t get into that.

drunkard said:
What do you mean by private?
Private normally means in visible. The All Staff Teams Conference Room is currently not considered private.

drunkard said:
What constitutes mockery, and where is the line drawn between ‘honest debate’ and ‘mockery’? Is asking for credible evidence of God or certain beliefs about God considered mockery? Is questioning aspects of the testimony of a believer mockery? Is poking holes in the assertions of Creationists mockery?
The rule you are referring to has already been in effect for months. Its interpretation may change though.


drunkard said:
This one just seems weird to me. I’ve been here for a couple of years, and I can’t recall (granted, I do spend most of my time here in the C&E and GA sections, so I may have missed something) anyone ever claiming to worship the Christian “Satan.” This leads me to worry about what might be considered “Satanic beliefs.” Will atheism be considered Satanic? The accepted conclusions of mainstream biology and/or geology? The beliefs of non-Christian theists? Or even non-Nicene Christian denominations?
There has been a lot of strife about Satanism on the board and the private Beth Miqlat forum and its predecessor the refuge forum, for example in foru.ms/t6338204-anyone-else-have-their-city-of-refuge-status-removed.html. That is probably what LeeD is referring to.


My respect for Christians has decreased the last few weeks. Maybe it is only temporary.
 
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birdofthunder

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If there are certain issues that need to be discussed fine, but the report threads at least should remain open.
Hmm, that would make me less nervous, and should solve that issue?
 
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mnphysicist

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Taken overall, everything you’ve outlined seems pretty reasonable.

As an unbeliever, though, I do see three areas of concern.

First:



What do you mean by private?

If you mean forums that anybody can read, but only mods are allowed to post, I’d support that fully. On a site with as many members as this, the mods need a place to discuss administrative business without being drowned out by members’ posts.

If you mean forums that are accessible only to mods – that raises a red flag. Secrecy encourages cliquish behavior, as well as arbitrary and uneven enforcement of the rules.

First, we have a reconciliaiton team, who have access, and could address such issues if they arise. Many are previous conciliators, and as such are pretty sensitive to such matters. We may have yet another solution as well, but its pretty early yet.

What constitutes mockery, and where is the line drawn between ‘honest debate’ and ‘mockery’? Is asking for credible evidence of God or certain beliefs about God considered mockery? Is questioning aspects of the testimony of a believer mockery? Is poking holes in the assertions of Creationists mockery?
This is actually a member driven rule, taken from the wiki. It is likely the discussion in the rules wiki addresses this. If not, the authors could certainly feel free to chime in here. As I see it, is there is significant leeway in interpretation. Ie, it provides for significant leeway as concerns an apologetics debate, while at the same time, staff can use it in a congregational area to reign things in if need be. With the new rules, staff have substantial discretion, but they also have much greater oversight than in the past.

This one just seems weird to me. I’ve been here for a couple of years, and I can’t recall (granted, I do spend most of my time here in the C&E and GA sections, so I may have missed something) anyone ever claiming to worship the Christian “Satan.”
Again, this is from the wiki... (in fact, many of the new rules are either copies of, or derivations from the wiki rules). Members did a great job of putting them together. When we we rewrote them, the intent was to widen the scope, increase the latitude of interpretation, soften the language, and potentially reduce the legalese aspect of them.

Will atheism be considered Satanic?
No*

The accepted conclusions of mainstream biology and/or geology?
No*

The beliefs of non-Christian theists?
No*
Or even non-Nicene Christian denominations?
No*

* as a general rule, the topics you bring up seem nearly impossible to combine with the promotion of the rituals or practices of Satanism. On the other hand, I have seen nearly impossible beliefs on CF over the years, so I can't say it won't happen, but it would be rare.

Certainly, the reconciliation staff would take a very close look if the rule was used in that way. It is more likely another rule would apply rather than this one. Ie attributing Satanic rituals to one of those topical areas would likely be seen as pretty inflammatory, rather than a case of active promotion.
 
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Nadiine

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Well praise God that something is going to be done - this place is just turning into a ZOO.

There's lots of important things, but I'll be happy if the 'going off topic' issue stops. It's been ruining honest debate from one derail to the next.
It goes from the OP: "baptism", and within 10 pages, you're arguing over "Christmas is Pagan" :swoon:

My only concern is, Erwin listened to a few "advisors" too... I pray he isn't collecting the type of staff that causes alot of the problems for born again believers which essentially got us into this mess.

He's also going to address turning into an INTERNAL forum, not focusing on outreach. PRAISE GOD!!!!!!! :clap:

When Erwin went OUTWARD, he imploded the inward and has no base to even witness to the outside world in the mass confusion that was created by it; pitting sheeps & wolves together to "reach the lost"...
ain't gonna happen.

<~~~~ eagerly awaits some much needed change.

I don't ask for absolute perfection, but SOME help is necessary.
 
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