Christian flourishing in a pluralistic setting

bèlla · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
Why do you say this? I don't get this impression.

The people who stood with me when I was spiritually afflicted weren't believers. The majority were gay, bisexual, and pagan. Only two were heterosexual and non religious. Every one loved me. They suffered beside me.

Most of the people who've made the greatest difference in my life (outside of family) aren't Christian. They were loving, generous, and kind. I wouldn't be where I am without them.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

section9+1 said:
No; I don't think they did. There's a lot of practical guidance already given in the bible. Whenever I read 6 points to do this or ten points to do that or 15 points to whatever, I tend to look the other way.

Well, thank you for engaging. I appreciate it.

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

bèlla said:
The people who stood with me when I was spiritually afflicted weren't believers. The majority were gay, bisexual, and pagan. Only two were heterosexual and non religious. Every one loved me. They suffered beside me.

Most of the people who've made the greatest difference in my life (outside of family) aren't Christian. They were loving, generous, and kind. I wouldn't be where I am without them.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

I hear you. I came to faith at 30, and have known loving people all my life. Maybe exposure to others who love but are not Christian is a key factor here. I get the impression that is missing. Of course, it's hard to convince those who haven't had that experience.

GooFYone · Nov 24, 2020

hedrick said:
I think one of the problems with the OP is that Christianity since the very beginning has had this idea that The World is evil, and we are to be separated from it. I'm not sure this was universal, but you see it in several NT books. I don't know whether it was inherited from Judaism or not, but large parts of Judaism felt the same way. Look at the Maccabees for an example, of for that matter even Ezra and Nehemiah.

You can be separated from The World, but still perform mission in it. But I think that results in a rather different feel in our activities from a more positive view of others.

You'll get lots of debate over where Jesus fit in this. Or for that matter, Paul.

Hi hedrick.

GooFYone · Nov 24, 2020

hedrick said:
I think one of the problems with the OP is that Christianity since the very beginning has had this idea that The World is evil, and we are to be separated from it. I'm not sure this was universal, but you see it in several NT books. I don't know whether it was inherited from Judaism or not, but large parts of Judaism felt the same way. Look at the Maccabees for an example, of for that matter even Ezra and Nehemiah.

You can be separated from The World, but still perform mission in it. But I think that results in a rather different feel in our activities from a more positive view of others.

You'll get lots of debate over where Jesus fit in this. Or for that matter, Paul.

I think the concept of the “world” being “bad” is because it dies. Sin leads to death. Jesus couldn’t die unless He took our sins.

GooFYone · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
Thank you for posting. I'm sorry the OP came across as it did to you. Let me say, welcome to CF. Hopefully you will find other threads on the forum are more to your liking.

The point of the thread, at least what I was hoping for, was to have a discussion on how Christians might live out the faith in contexts where many others are not Christian, and do so in such a way that benefits everyone. It is true that many reject Christianity. But I don't think that means we cannot live in peace with others, as far as we are able, and even be of significant benefit to everyone, even in spite of their rejection of Christianity.

At any rate, I hope you enjoy the forums.

Please don’t get me wrong, I enjoy all openness and honesty anywhere I can receive it.
It is possible that some do not like Jesus, though I doubt it. I view your post as entertaining and enlightening at the same time and I happen to enjoy the beautiful wording of every bit of it.
I was just a bit on the tilt when I arrived though I think you have settin me straight again. To which I’m very thankful my friend.

GooFYone · Nov 24, 2020

bèlla said:
The people who stood with me when I was spiritually afflicted weren't believers. The majority were gay, bisexual, and pagan. Only two were heterosexual and non religious. Every one loved me. They suffered beside me.

Most of the people who've made the greatest difference in my life (outside of family) aren't Christian. They were loving, generous, and kind. I wouldn't be where I am without them.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

Even Jesus was betrayed. I believe that Jesus is in all of us. I believe that He is Love.

buzuxi02 · Nov 24, 2020

The only way to flourish is to have many kids with your own institutions while keeping a distance from the pluralistic majority.

GooFYone · Nov 24, 2020

I believe in the fact that God will set us straight.

Tropical Wilds · Nov 24, 2020

In a first-world situation, I think it is quite easy to flourish in a surrounding that includes multiple faiths and beliefs and admitting as such makes some people scared.

GooFYone · Nov 24, 2020

The Addams Family

Norbert L · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
How can Christians and Christian communities flourish in a pluralistic setting, contributing to the common good of all within that setting, without becoming isolated and thus ineffective or becoming relativistic and thus ineffective?

It's going to be done as it always has been done, with mixed results. Which means they'll be some non-flourishing going on too.

I wouldn't preclude that being isolated or relativistic is thus ineffective either.

GooFYone · Nov 24, 2020

Pluralistic.
relating to or advocating a system in which two or more states, groups, principles, sources of authority, etc., coexist

GooFYone · Nov 24, 2020

The Holy word of God is so amazing.

GooFYone · Nov 24, 2020

What can wash away my sin, nothing but the blood of Jesus.

nolidad · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
How can Christians and Christian communities flourish in a pluralistic setting, contributing to the common good of all within that setting, without becoming isolated and thus ineffective or becoming relativistic and thus ineffective?

This account comes from For the Life of the World:Theology That Makes a Difference by Miroslav Volf and Matthew Croasman (BrazosPress; Grand Rapids, Michigan; 2019; pp. 104-107).

"What are some key elements of a Christian account of flourishing life that allow those who embrace it to live in peace and pursue common good in pluralistic settings, and to do so not only notwithstanding its claim to be true for every human and the entire world, but also largely because of it?"

1. Trinitarian monotheism: "...God is the source not just of the unity of the world but also of all the stunning diversity in it. Since, for Christians, the one God is the Holy Trinity, God is internally differentiated. Difference is not secondary, subsequent to unity; difference is equiprimordial with unity."

2. God is Unconditional Love: "God is not a mere omnipotent force. Neither is God a mere universal lawgiver. The central attribute of God is unconditional love...God brings all creatures into being and keeps them in being...Even when humans fail to live according to the law of love, God seeks to mend the world and bring it to its intended fullness so it can become what God created it to be: our home and God's home in one."

3. Jesus Christ the Light of the World: All light and all truth, whether possessed by Christians or non-Christians, is the light of the Word and therefore Christ's light. This too is the consequence of monotheism: not just that the truth about flourishing life that Christ proclaimed is for all people, but also that in virtue of Christ all people always already possess some of that truth, that they have what Justin Martyr famously called "seeds of the Word" (First Apology). It cannot be otherwise: if the Word is the creator of everything, all genuine insights derive from God who was in Jesus Christ. All truth sought and found anywhere takes us, ultimately, to Christ as its origin."

4. Distinction between God's rule and human rule: The Christian church is a loose international network of communities whose primary allegiance isn't to the states of which they are citizens or to some yet-to-be-created global super-state but to the one God of all people. Political pluralism and transnationalism fit well with the Christian vision of flourishing life."

5. The moral equality of all human beings: "All people have equal dignity; all have the same rights and the same moral obligations; all have fallen short of those obligations. There are no moral outsiders according to the Christian faith."

6. Freedom of religion and areligion: "The call of Jesus Christ "Come, follow me!" presumes that an individual who hears it is free to follow or not. From the earliest beginnings, it was clear that faith is either embraced freely or not at all: one believes with the heart, which is to say not by outward conformity to ambient influences or in reaction to outside dictates backed by overwhelming force but with the very core of one's being. Behind the stress on embracing faith freely lies the conviction that every person has the responsibility for the basic direction of his or her life."

The authors believe that these six principles are foundational to the Christian faith and if we embrace them we can nurture a culture of respect, live peaceably with others who differ from us, and create a space to live and dispute with other worldviews while flourishing together.

Thoughts?

Well Paul and Jesus put it best.

2 Timothy 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

We are to love and live peaceably with all men as much as possible. But let us make no mistake- living godly cost Jesus his life- the world will not pin sunday school medals on us if we imitate Him.

Zao is life · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
How can Christians and Christian communities flourish in a pluralistic setting, contributing to the common good of all within that setting, without becoming isolated and thus ineffective or becoming relativistic and thus ineffective?

This account comes from For the Life of the World:Theology That Makes a Difference by Miroslav Volf and Matthew Croasman (BrazosPress; Grand Rapids, Michigan; 2019; pp. 104-107).

"What are some key elements of a Christian account of flourishing life that allow those who embrace it to live in peace and pursue common good in pluralistic settings, and to do so not only notwithstanding its claim to be true for every human and the entire world, but also largely because of it?"

1. Trinitarian monotheism: "...God is the source not just of the unity of the world but also of all the stunning diversity in it. Since, for Christians, the one God is the Holy Trinity, God is internally differentiated. Difference is not secondary, subsequent to unity; difference is equiprimordial with unity."

2. God is Unconditional Love: "God is not a mere omnipotent force. Neither is God a mere universal lawgiver. The central attribute of God is unconditional love...God brings all creatures into being and keeps them in being...Even when humans fail to live according to the law of love, God seeks to mend the world and bring it to its intended fullness so it can become what God created it to be: our home and God's home in one."

3. Jesus Christ the Light of the World: All light and all truth, whether possessed by Christians or non-Christians, is the light of the Word and therefore Christ's light. This too is the consequence of monotheism: not just that the truth about flourishing life that Christ proclaimed is for all people, but also that in virtue of Christ all people always already possess some of that truth, that they have what Justin Martyr famously called "seeds of the Word" (First Apology). It cannot be otherwise: if the Word is the creator of everything, all genuine insights derive from God who was in Jesus Christ. All truth sought and found anywhere takes us, ultimately, to Christ as its origin."

4. Distinction between God's rule and human rule: The Christian church is a loose international network of communities whose primary allegiance isn't to the states of which they are citizens or to some yet-to-be-created global super-state but to the one God of all people. Political pluralism and transnationalism fit well with the Christian vision of flourishing life."

5. The moral equality of all human beings: "All people have equal dignity; all have the same rights and the same moral obligations; all have fallen short of those obligations. There are no moral outsiders according to the Christian faith."

6. Freedom of religion and areligion: "The call of Jesus Christ "Come, follow me!" presumes that an individual who hears it is free to follow or not. From the earliest beginnings, it was clear that faith is either embraced freely or not at all: one believes with the heart, which is to say not by outward conformity to ambient influences or in reaction to outside dictates backed by overwhelming force but with the very core of one's being. Behind the stress on embracing faith freely lies the conviction that every person has the responsibility for the basic direction of his or her life."

The authors believe that these six principles are foundational to the Christian faith and if we embrace them we can nurture a culture of respect, live peaceably with others who differ from us, and create a space to live and dispute with other worldviews while flourishing together.
Thoughts?

The first century Christians did not have freedom of religion. This is what they (and we) are told:

Romans 12
14 Bless those persecuting you; bless, and curse not;
15 to rejoice with the rejoicing, and to weep with the weeping,
16 of the same mind one toward another, not minding the high things, but with the lowly going along; become not wise in your own conceit;
17 giving back to no one evil for evil; providing right things before all men.

18 If possible--so far as in you--with all men being in peace;

19 not avenging yourselves, beloved, but give place to the wrath, for it hath been written, `Vengeance is Mine,
20 I will recompense again, saith the Lord;' if, then, thine enemy doth hunger, feed him; if he doth thirst, give him drink; for this doing, coals of fire thou shalt heap upon his head;
21 Be not overcome by the evil, but overcome, in the good, the evil.

There's no suggestion that we need to separate ourselves, nor that we will not experience hardship for our faith. The earliest Christians all did - at the hands of Jews and various Romans alike. Before 70 A.D they had the leaders of the Jews who hated them without cause. Then they had various Roman emperors. Today we have Islam. Those who adhere faithfully to Islam hate the true message of the gospel. The true gospel is an enemy to Islam, because Islam has its own version of it. We also have others who hate the gospel - all those who are rebellious against God. They may not be Jewish or Muslim - they may not adhere to any faith. They're normally of a particular social and political persuasion and support the practices that God hates, such as abortion.

Christians will be persecuted for their testimony to Christ

.. but we are to love our enemies, not repaying evil for good

We are called to this

But we should not fear

In due time we will receive our reward

Posts # 4 and #7 tell us how it's done and what it looks like in practice. We cannot go out of the world. We don't need to be arrogant. We just need to say what we believe, share the gospel with those who, knowing what we believe and who we follow, ask, and we may refuse to support the plans and actions that we know are sinful, such as abortion, and homosexual "marriages". As a result, we will be hated, and we already are. Eventually the beast will make war against the saints and overcome them, before Christ returns.

As a result of persecution there is going to be a mass apostasy, with Christians betraying one another:

zippy2006 · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
Sure, the "world" is often used to indicate a way of living that is contrary to God's will. On the other hand, the Son came because God loves the world and is ultimately reconciling all things to himself through the Son. The church is called to be a part of that process.

I don't read the OP as asking us to compromise that, or reject the reality that the world is in need of reconciliation. I read the OP as saying we live in a pluralistic context, that is how things stand, and there are fundamental principles to aid us in navigating that context without compromise.

Like Hedrick I am not so sure that the time of the early Church could be called pluralistic. Christians were persecuted once they became separated from Judaism, and then eventually flourished at the expense of paganism (and in the minds of many, at the expense of the Roman Empire). I suppose Judaism was recognized as a religio licita alongside paganism, at least until it wasn't.

Again, I think that focusing on the points of the OP would lead to more peaceable co-existence for Christians. The difficulty is that the criterion of "peaceful co-existence" doesn't seem to be central to Christianity, though it also isn't exactly opposed to Christianity. My worry is that the authors are cherry-picking pieces of Christian doctrine to suit a foreign criterion. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but is certainly something that could become a problem and must be handled with care.

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

zippy2006 said:
Like Hedrick I am not so sure that the time of the early Church could be called pluralistic.

I would have thought with the various mystery cults, philosophies, different deities for different cities, and so on, would have been sufficient to amount to pluralism. I suppose it depends on which Christians and in which cities we are considering.

hedrick · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
I would have thought with the various mystery cults, philosophies, different deities for different cities, and so on, would have been sufficient to amount to pluralism. I suppose it depends on which Christians and in which cities we are considering.

The Roman Empire certainly had pluralism. But how did Christianity relate to it?

There are, I think, differing approaches to how we related to the world. which to some extent correspond to differing understandings of the Gospel:

Christ came to save the world. Our job is to serve others and reconcile people to Christ.
Christ came to save us out of the world. Our job is to maintain our purity in a corrupted world.

Both elements are there in the NT, and in most Christian practice. But I think historically the emphasis has been on the second. Most movements, whether religious or political, maintain member commitment by setting themselves up in opposition to outsiders, in a war of light against darkness. It's far from clear that a mass movement like Christianity can maintain itself without enemies. Indeed when there weren't obvious enemies outside, the Church found them inside, making war on heretics and other unacceptable Christians.

Versions of Christianity that take the first approach have found it hard to retain members, as the boundaries with more humane portions of the outside culture become pretty weak.

It's even hard to cite the NT on this topic. Matthew is strong on boundaries, and tends to use Christ as a judge. Luke is a bit less so. You can see both in Paul. While he has a universal vision, he also sees the churches he worked wih as rescuing people from a godless world (with some justification, based on my impression of the surrounding culture). Whether Paul wrote it or not, look at the beginning of Eph 2.

Christian flourishing in a pluralistic setting

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