Christian Faith Requires the Acceptance of Evolution

[Assyrian]

No we don't, that's why we ask Him.

He doesn't always give us straight answers. John 21:22 Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!"

And isn't this what really matters?

Most of the time, but people can get hurt when preachers insist we have to believe some particular misinterpretation. What got me of the sidelines when I was a YEC with origins-agnostic leanings, was a preacher condemning the church saying they had to repent of the idolatry of Darwinism. Most creationist are no are not like that, and are much more gentle and gracious, but there is a streak of ugly in Creationist organisations that is trying to bring the church into bandage. I think also creationism can be a major stumbling block to the gospel for people, and can cause young people who learn creationism in Sunday School to fall away when they learn about evolution in college.

Not only does the Holy Spirit search our hearts, but also the deep things of God.

Psalm 42:7 Deep calls to deep at the roar of your waterfalls; all your breakers and your waves have gone over me.

Remember how he said 'until perfection comes'? [paraphrased]
Well, perfection HAS come;

John 17:23
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

2 Cor 13:11
Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

There is a difference between us being perfected, which is on ongoing process, and the perfection Paul though was still to come when we meet the Lord face to face.
1Cor 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away... 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.
Note the future tense, when the perfect come the partial will pass away.

We're not 'on our own'.

Heb 11:39-Heb 12:2
And these all, having had witness borne to them through their faith, received not the promise, God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

And some of these witnesses are the church fathers whose writings glaudys was talking about

I do not believe God ever intended to have His Church run as it does today.
Rather, I believe 'Church' to be a place of exhoration and edification. Not one man preaching whille the 'sheep' all listen and comtemplate, but a place where we come together to bear witness to each others faith;

Heb 7:28
For the law appointeth men high priests, having infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was after the law, appointeth a Son, perfected for evermore.

Col 2:3-9
In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Not only is the above a stern warning about seeking to peer after a fleshly manner into the 'rudiments of the world', but also a strong exhortation to be found steadfast in our faith in Christ. This is what St. Paul was looking into when he visted the various Churches, not an outward show of intelligence or humility, but an inward show of faith.

Heb 11:1-3
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

That means, we aught to be building each other up in the Most Holy of faiths. For what we have received is sufficient in Christ, namely His Spirit.

I think a lot of traditional churches and denomination are coming around to this as you can see in the growth of house groups and cell groups. God is still able to work within more traditional setups and raise up teachers and bible scholars we can all learn from.

Fellowship means to come together on what we both agree on. We BOTH agree that Jesus has given us of His Spirit. And this is what fellowship should be, the breaking of bread with the sharing of FAITH.

I always loved the two verses where Paul talks about our unity in Ephesians.
Eph 4:2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God.
See how Paul is encouraging the church to maintain the unity of the Spirit with humility and gentleness while the unity of the faith was something they had yet to attain? They already had the unity of the Spirit even if they didn't yet agree about everything they believed.

That's because all churches presume to speak for God, when God has already spoken.

Unfortunately we all disagree about what God said and what it actually means

But we don't need them for 'full knowledge of God', for He says "every man shall not teach his neighbor saying, know the Lord', for they shall ALL know me, from the least of them to the greatest".

What we NEED, is to bear witness to each others FAITH in the Spirit, for this edifies, The testimony of Spirit filled believers exhorting one another is ALL we've EVER need to grow in Grace. And if Christ be not magified in a body, rebuke and exhortation, reminding one what he has received when he received Jesus!

We don't need other believers to be whole, we have already received perfection in the Spirit of Christ.

Not according to Paul. Yes we do know the Lord, but we only grasp the full knowledge together with all the saints.

For this is edifying to our faith.

All we need is to bear testimony to the Spirit of Christ in us, in Spirit and in Truth.

The bible exhorts us again and again to train our minds in the knowledge of God and his word.
1Tim 4:6 If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed.
2Tim 2:15 Give diligence to present yourself approved by God, a workman who doesn't need to be ashamed, properly handling the Word of Truth.
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.
1Pet 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, be sober and set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ--
1Pet 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts; and always be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, with humility and fear:

But it's not, for Jesus has already given us the True meaning of the passover, to whcih the Apostle Paul testified;

1 Cor 5:7b-8
For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Yet God really did command the Jew to commemorate the Passover and sacrifice literal sheep. Their lives depended on it during the Exodus. Both interpretations are right. Paul interpreted Hagar and Sarah as allegories of the Old and New Covenants, yet Sarah really was Abraham's wife and Hagar her Egyptian maid.

St Paul wrote;

1 Cor 4:14-15
I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

2 Cor 1:24
Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

What has this got to do with Christians disagreeing over different interpretations? We tend to remember the big issues Paul took a really firm stand on like circumcision. But Paul also dealt with areas where sincere believers disagreed and Paul's only response was that we should be gracious with each other.

Rom 14:1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.
2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.
3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.
4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself.
8 If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

 

[Zeena]

He doesn't always give us straight answers. John 21:22 Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!"

And sometimes He gives us no answer at all. But I would much rather trust the state of my heart to my Heavenly Father, than man, who is not privy to such.

If I'm not ready, in my heart, to receive any particular teaching of the Lord, He alone knows it.

Most of the time, but people can get hurt when preachers insist we have to believe some particular misinterpretation.

EXACTLY!

I believed so many things in error as a babe in Christ, and the walls came crashing all around as He revealed (and is revealing) Truth to (and within) me.

What got me of the sidelines when I was a YEC with origins-agnostic leanings, was a preacher condemning the church saying they had to repent of the idolatry of Darwinism. Most creationist are not like that, and are much more gentle and gracious, but there is a streak of ugly in Creationist organisations that is trying to bring the church into bondage.

Bondage is not neccessarily a bad thing, for we are bondservants, after all. Yet, so as not to detract from your thesis, as long as the bondage is to God, rather than the teaching of men (creationists teaching included), I am glad!

Some things pertaining to faith are necessary, but I don't particularily believe this to be one of them.

I think also creationism can be a major stumbling block to the gospel for people, and can cause young people who learn creationism in Sunday School to fall away when they learn about evolution in college.

This can be true, to an extent, except for the fact that our Lord is able to keep us from falling.

This is why I testify that belief in Jesus is the end-all/be-all of faith.
We can't go wrong with what we KNOW is Truth, and Jesus, alone, is that Truth. It's when we start tacking on a bunch of philoshophies that we are apt to stray from the path (which is Christ). All that matters for righteous living is that we lean on our Father in the Spirit of Christ.

Psalm 42:7 Deep calls to deep at the roar of your waterfalls; all your breakers and your waves have gone over me.

I have had a similar experience, when I chose to give up (some of) what I thought I knew. I was scared at first, but little did I know it was peaceable waters.

There is a difference between us being perfected, which is on ongoing process, and the perfection Paul though was still to come when we meet the Lord face to face.
1Cor 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away... 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.
Note the future tense, when the perfect come the partial will pass away.

But we've received the Spirit, Who is God, that we might know the things that are freely given us in Christ. Even though they might not be here yet, they are coming, for He is coming, and His reward is with Him!

1 Kings 18:41
And Elijah said unto Ahab, Get thee up, eat and drink; for there is a sound of abundance of rain.

Kings 6:17
And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

Isa 6:3
And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

John 1:51
And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Eph 1:17-23
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Acts 7:55-56
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Isa 6:3
And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

And some of these witnesses are the church fathers whose writings glaudys was talking about

I do not agrue that. But rather, what I intended to point out is that seeking after anything else but God is vanity, a striving after wind, even so I quoted from the Preacher.

For if I seek after the teachings of men, am I really seeking after the Heart of God?

I think a lot of traditional churches and denomination are coming around to this as you can see in the growth of house groups and cell groups. God is still able to work within more traditional setups and raise up teachers and bible scholars we can all learn from.

And there is nothing wrong with being Ministered over by fellow believers, so long as we do so in the fear of the Lord and receive in the meekness thereof.

For the Lord might not be working, at any given moment, in and through any particular believer, just as He might actually be working in and through him or her.

I am very careful what I allow to sink in. If I don't know a thing, I test it against Scripture, ponder it, and bring it before my Father in prayer, before even considering it.

For I do not want to build again that which I've destroyed, by the Spirit, based upon the preaching of men. Nor is it my desire to associate evil with the work of the Holy Spirit.

Sometimes it is wise to remain on the bank, until God makes a way a-cross the river.

Heb 2:1
Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

I always loved the two verses where Paul talks about our unity in Ephesians.
Eph 4:2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God.

Unity of the Spirit, in the bond of Peace, does not entail extra curricular teachings. For he is clearly speaking of Unity in "the Faith" and of the "knowledge of the Son of God."

He is not pointing out that we should all believe in either creationism or evolutionism, but that we should have the Unity of the Spirit in matters pertaining to faith. ERGO, the OP, which says that "Christian Faith requires the acceptance of evolution" is FALSE! For that statement totally ignores what True Faith is!

See how Paul is encouraging the church to maintain the unity of the Spirit with humility and gentleness while the unity of the faith was something they had yet to attain?

Yes, I do. And I am sure, especially given the times, that St Paul had all sorts of philosophical theories purpounded to him in exhortation to believe in such. But what did he say to those who were so indoctrinated with philoshophy?

'I aimed to preach Christ ONLY, and Him crucified, that your faith may not rest on men, but rather, the Living God' [paraphrased].

Did he not also say, if you, with knowledge, eat, the conscience of the other can become defiled, thinking it an offering to an idol?

Please don't get me wrong, I do not believe that Christians here are offering up sacrifices to idols, but rather, those who are weak in the faith might also present with us.

They already had the unity of the Spirit even if they didn't yet agree about everything they believed.

Everything they believed.. ABOUT CHRIST.

Unfortunately we all disagree about what God said and what it actually means

BUT, we do not disagree on What and Who Jesus is, so we even signed the agreement for these forums which says that He is God in the flesh, the Only Begotten of the Father and the son of man. We are to come together on what we DO agree upon, and that is always gonna be faith in Jesus/faith of Christ..

Not according to Paul. Yes we do know the Lord, but we only grasp the full knowledge together with all the saints.

And we are "together with all the Saints", in Christ. We are members, each one, of His Body. St Paul is not here, yet he is counted as one who is amongst "all the Saints". Not to imply that "all the Saints" have gone before, but that they are of far greater numbers than those who are alive.. a GREAT cloud of witnesses.

Have I met Saints, surely everyone who calls upon the Name of Jesus is a Saint of the Most High God, and I have met many, yourself included dear brother.
Do they Minister over my soul, even as I theirs in the Holy Spirit, surely. Yet, never to doubtful disputations, always, rather, in that which is good for edifying. And if it is to disputes, I attempt to change the subject to that of Christ, that there may be peace between us.

Eph 4:29
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

The bible exhorts us again and again to train our minds in the knowledge of God and his word.

1Tim 4:6 If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed.

2Tim 2:15 Give diligence to present yourself approved by God, a workman who doesn't need to be ashamed, properly handling the Word of Truth.

Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

1Pet 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, be sober and set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ--

1Pet 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts; and always be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, with humility and fear:

Bolded the text above for emphasis on what I am relating.

Iron sharpens iron, even as the Lord did testify in the Scripture, but iron is not iron, without a Maker. On this we can agree, and it is enough.
As for training our minds in the knowledge of God and His Word..

 

[Zeena]

Yet God really did command the Jew to commemorate the Passover and sacrifice literal sheep. Their lives depended on it during the Exodus. Both interpretations are right.

Both are right, but the latter is the fulfillment of the former.

Heb 11:39-40
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Heb 12:18-24
For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake: )
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Paul interpreted Hagar and Sarah as allegories of the Old and New Covenants, yet Sarah really was Abraham's wife and Hagar her Egyptian maid.

Yes, they really were/are real people, and the Spirit of Christ really was/is in them. But what was written down was written down for our edification, that through their good testimony we might have hope.

Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

What has this got to do with Christians disagreeing over different interpretations?

Because, as becoming of a good father, the Apostle Paul lead his teaching into teachings on faith.

We tend to remember the big issues Paul took a really firm stand on like circumcision.

Only because circumcision revolved around faith.

Gal 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

But Paul also dealt with areas where sincere believers disagreed and Paul's only response was that we should be gracious with each other.

Rom 14:1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.
2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.
3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.
4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself.
8 If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Romans 15:5-7
Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.

 

[createdtoworship]

good brother put it succinctly
"Is that not what the textbooks say? That fishy fish life swam until they ran out of water, climbed up on shore, developed lungs, grew legs, became titans of their time, frayed the scales til they became feathers, shrunk, climbed a tree, jumped off a branch, flew around, and became birds. Or for men- the fishy fish swam til they ran out water, climbed up on land, grew lungs and fur this time, scampered around at the feet of giant tweety bird T rexes, til they ditched walking on all fours for two legged transportation, climbed trees, jumped down from trees to build a fire, shed their fur, grew a bigger brain, and now believes we came from monkeys. Tell me exactly where I got it so wrong at."

 

[Assyrian]

Is that not what the textbooks say? That fishy fish life swam until they ran out of water, climbed up on shore, developed lungs, grew legs, became titans of their time, frayed the scales til they became feathers, shrunk, climbed a tree, jumped off a branch, flew around, and became birds. Or for men- the fishy fish swam til they ran out water, climbed up on land, grew lungs and fur this time, scampered around at the feet of giant tweety bird T rexes, til they ditched walking on all fours for two legged transportation, climbed trees, jumped down from trees to build a fire, shed their fur, grew a bigger brain, and now believes we came from monkeys. Tell me exactly where I got it so wrong at.

Sounds more like Fatboy Slim than actual science textbooks
‪Fatboy Slim - Right Here Right Now‬‏ - YouTube

 

[createdtoworship]

Sounds more like Fatboy Slim than actual science textbooks
‪Fatboy Slim - Right Here Right Now‬‏ - YouTube

show me where I got it wrong?

 

[Assyrian]

There:

Is that not what the textbooks say? That fishy fish life swam until they ran out of water, climbed up on shore, developed lungs, grew legs, became titans of their time, frayed the scales til they became feathers, shrunk, climbed a tree, jumped off a branch, flew around, and became birds. Or for men- the fishy fish swam til they ran out water, climbed up on land, grew lungs and fur this time, scampered around at the feet of giant tweety bird T rexes, til they ditched walking on all fours for two legged transportation, climbed trees, jumped down from trees to build a fire, shed their fur, grew a bigger brain, and now believes we came from monkeys. Tell me exactly where I got it so wrong at.

 

[Assyrian]

Starting there:

Is that not what the textbooks say? That fishy fish life swam until they ran out of water, climbed up on shore, developed lungs, grew legs, became titans of their time, frayed the scales til they became feathers, shrunk, climbed a tree, jumped off a branch, flew around, and became birds. Or for men- the fishy fish swam til they ran out water, climbed up on land, grew lungs and fur this time, scampered around at the feet of giant tweety bird T rexes, til they ditched walking on all fours for two legged transportation, climbed trees, jumped down from trees to build a fire, shed their fur, grew a bigger brain, and now believes we came from monkeys. Tell me exactly where I got it so wrong at.

 

[createdtoworship]

Starting there:

no argument huh?

you must agree then.

 

[Philothei]

Mod hat on
This thread had a clean up. Some posts were removed due to flaming fellow CF members. Please be more careful not to offend others while debating. Debate without personal attacks. Thanks!


Mod hat off​

 

[Assyrian]

no argument huh?

What was there to argue against?

you must agree then.

I answered your question by pointing out your description bears no relationship to evolution. If your understanding of evolution looks more like a Fatboy Slim's humorous pop video have you considered your view of evolution is more cartoon than science?

 

[createdtoworship]

What was there to argue against?
I answered your question by pointing out your description bears no relationship to evolution. If your understanding of evolution looks more like a Fatboy Slim's humorous pop video have you considered your view of evolution is more cartoon than science?

thats what the textbooks say, those are the transitions. Unless you are implying that real science doesn't use transitional forms. I would agree.

good brother put it succinctly...
"life sprang from an electrocuted mud puddle, that fishy fish sprouted legs and crawled up on shore, that those same fishy fish split off in two different directions- mammalian and reptilian, that those reptilian frayed their scales until they became feathers, shrunk down in size, climbed a tree, jumped off a branch, flew around and became tweety birds. Or that the mammalian family ditched the four legged transportation for two, grew a tail, climbed a tree, swung around from the branches until their tails fell off and they fell out the trees, built a fire, shed the fur, grew a beard, and now believe we came from monkeys."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTdhYAtaOjs&feature=player_embedded

 

[Assyrian]

If you want to show the description of evolution is more like a text book than Fatboy Slim's pop video, wouldn't it be better to try a science textbook instead of Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron's vox pop interviews?

 

[createdtoworship]

If you want to show the description of evolution is more like a text book than Fatboy Slim's pop video, wouldn't it be better to try a science textbook instead of Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron's vox pop interviews?

go ahead and read them. They just use big words to cover up their lack of evidence. But if you have some neat quotes from them go ahead. But there is a book out that shows how 5 textbooks believe about certain subjects of evolution and how four public school textbooks state Whales evolved from a wolf-like, hoofed ancestor.


http://www.answersingenesis.org/PublicStore/pdfs/SampleChapter/10-2-261.pdf

Evolution Exposed:Biology - Answers Bookstore

 

[Assyrian]

go ahead and read them. They just use big words to cover up their lack of evidence. But if you have some neat quotes from them go ahead. But there is a book out that shows how 5 textbooks believe about certain subjects of evolution and how four public school textbooks state Whales evolved from a wolf-like, hoofed ancestor.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/PublicStore/pdfs/SampleChapter/10-2-261.pdf

Evolution Exposed:Biology - Answers Bookstore

Sorry, what has this got to do with your description of evolution looking more like the Fatboy Slim pop video than anything in a science textbook? You mean that because Answers in Genesis claims evolution is wrong then your cartoon version of evolution must be what the text books teach?

 

[createdtoworship]

Sorry, what has this got to do with your description of evolution looking more like the Fatboy Slim pop video than anything in a science textbook? You mean that because Answers in Genesis claims evolution is wrong then your cartoon version of evolution must be what the text books teach?

you still have to prove that it's not what they teach point for point.

 

[Assyrian]

you still have to prove that it's not what they teach point for point.

meh. The fact you can't tell the difference says it all. Teaching Creationists what evolution actually says is an uphill struggle, they don't want to learn and much prefer their strawman versions, which they find easier to refute. It is more than enough to show you understanding of evolution is no different to the Fatboy Slim joke. If that doesn't make you want to find out what evolution actually says then that is up to you.

 

[metherion]

you still have to prove that it's not what they teach point for point.

Actually, I thought the burden of proof was that the person making the affirmative claim has to provide the evidence. Since you are claiming what the Theory of Evolution states and how it is taught, you are the one who needs to bring in the textbooks confirming your straw man of evolution.

So, paraphrased,
You still have to prove that your strawman of evolution is what they teach, point by point.

Metherion

 

[stever the believer]

Most of the time, but people can get hurt when preachers insist we have to believe some particular misinterpretation.

I don't know about getting "hurt" but there are certainly people who lose faith when they believe some particular misinterpretation.. say like meshing Evolution with what the Bible says. Young people are leaving the church in droves these days because the Bible appears to be a fairy tale to them... not getting answers.

I think also creationism can be a major stumbling block to the gospel for people, and can cause young people who learn creationism in Sunday School to fall away when they learn about evolution in college.

On the contrary, I think creationism can be an empowerment of faith to show how the Bible is real. Are you suggesting that people don't learn about evolution until college? I have learned about it all my life and up until around middle school, I bought into the whole millions/billions of years and tried to ignore the meaning of Genesis 1. High School was when I was introduced to certain creationist ideas. I did not "buy into" every single idea wholeheartedly but it was interesting to learn about. Thank you to Answers in Genesis a few years ago, we have better resources to look at.

 

[Astridhere]

I don't know about getting "hurt" but there are certainly people who lose faith when they believe some particular misinterpretation.. say like meshing Evolution with what the Bible says. Young people are leaving the church in droves these days because the Bible appears to be a fairy tale to them... not getting answers.



On the contrary, I think creationism can be an empowerment of faith to show how the Bible is real. Are you suggesting that people don't learn about evolution until college? I have learned about it all my life and up until around middle school, I bought into the whole millions/billions of years and tried to ignore the meaning of Genesis 1. High School was when I was introduced to certain creationist ideas. I did not "buy into" every single idea wholeheartedly but it was interesting to learn about. Thank you to Answers in Genesis a few years ago, we have better resources to look at.

I agree with you, in that science has demonstrated the veracity of the bible. It is unfortunate that many evolutionists continue to live in denial. I am not sure if it is because they feel threatened or what, really. However, no matter how many times we illustrate that very well credentialed researchers also do not see the evidence for evolution many will never be able to accept it and prefer a state of denial.

John Sanford, a well credentialed scientist with published papers was an atheist evolutionist turned YEC mid life. Hence, being inculcated into the evolutionary paradigm was not convincing to him nor was it convincing to these well educated persons below...and there are many more which are not listed.


A list of creation scientists who are/have contributed to science
1) Dr. Raymond Damadian - inventor of MRI device

2) Dr. Raymond Jones - CSIRO Gold Medal, detoxified Leucaena for livestock
consumption

3) Dr. Keith Wanser - 48 published papers, seven U.S. patents
(Professor of Physics, Cal State Fullerton)

4) Dr. Russell Humphreys - successful planetary magnetic predictions
(nuclear physicist, Sandia National Laboratories )

5) Dr. Kurt Wise - Ph.D. in paleontology under Stephen J. Gould at Harvard

6) Jules H. Poirier - designer of radar FM altimeter on Apollo Lunar
Landing Module

7) Dr. Sinaseli Tshibwabwa - discovered 7 new species of fish in the Congo

8) Dr. Saami Shaibani - "International Expert" by the US Depts of Labor and
Justice. 100 published articles (B.A. (Hons), M.A., M.Sc., D.Phil, a
physics professor and researcher)

1) (ID) Dr. Henry F. Schaefer III - five-time Nobel nominee
(professor of chemistry at the University of Georgia)

2) (ID) Dr. William S. Harris - $3.5 million in research grants, over 70
scientific papers, Director of the Lipoprotein Research Laboratory at Saint
Luke’s Hospital. Chair in Metabolism and Vascular Biology and is a
Professor of Medicine at the University of Missouri.

Others:

Dr. Emmett L. Williams, Ph.D. Materials Engineering
Dr. David A. Kaufmann, Ph.D. Anatomy
Dr. Glen W. Wolfrom, Ph.D. Ruminant Nutrition
Dr. Theodore P. Aufdemberge, Ph.D. Physical Geography,
Dr. Eugene F. Chaffin, Ph.D. Physics
Dr. George F. Howe, Ph.D. Botany
Dr. Wayne F. Frair, Ph.D. Serology
Dr. John R. Meyer, Ph.D. Zoology
Dr. Robert Goette, Ph.D. Chemistry
Dr. Lane Lester -- Ph.D. in genetics from Purdue University
Dr. Andrew Snelling -- Ph.D. in geology, U. of Sydney
Dr. Don Batten, consultant plant physiologist
Dr. Gary Parker, Ed.D. in Biology/Geology, Ball State University
Dr. John Baumgardner, Los Alamos Laboratories
Dr. Donald B. DeYoung, Ph.D., Physics, Grace College, Winona Lake, Indiana
Dr. Eric Norman, Ph.D, Biochemistry, Texas A&M University
Dr. Clifford A. Wilson - Archaeologist, Author of "Crash go the Chariots"
Michael Oard, MS, Atmospheric Science, U. of Washington, meteorologist
Keyoshi Takahashi, Ph.D., Botany - has had research published in Nature.
Dr. Andy McIntosh, Reader in Combustion Theory at Leeds U., U.K.

Dr. George Marshall, Ph.D., Ophthalmic Science, U of Glasgow, Scotland
chartered biologist, member of the Institute of Biology
Dr. Danny Faulkner -- Ph.D. Astronomy, Indiana University, Associate
Professor, U. of South Carolina, Lancaster
Dr. David Menton, Associate Professor of Anatomy, Washington University
School of Medicine, St. Louis, Missouri
Prof. Maciej Giertych, Ph.D.(Toronto), D.Sc.(Poznan), head of the Genetics
Dept. of the Polish Academy of Sciences, Institute of Dendrology, Kornik,
Poland.
Dr. James Allan, M.Sc.Agric., PhD., retired senior lecturer in the Dept. of
Genetics, Univ. of Stellenbosch, South Africa
Dr. Andre Eggen, Ph.D. in animal genetics from the Federal Institute of
Technology in Switzerland, research scientist for the French government
Dr. Brian Stone, Ph.D., Head of the Dept. of Mechanical Engineering,
U. of Western Australia
Dr. Donald Chittick, Ph.D. in physical chemistry, Oregon State U.,
Associate Professor of Chemistry , U. of Puget Sound
Dr. Giuseppe Sermonti, Ph.D., geneticist and microbiologist, has served as
Professor of Genetics at U. of Palermo & U. of Perugia
Dr. Andre Eggen, Institute Nationale de la Agrinomique of France, working
on genetic defect in cows known as the Bulldog gene defect.
Dave Phillips, M.S., physical anthropology, California State U., working on
Ph.D. in paleontology
Jonathan D. Sarfati, Ph.D., F.M. -- Ph.D. in Chemistry from Victoria
univeristy of Wellington, New Zealand. New Zealand chess champion.

Dr. Jack Cuozzo, orthodontist (DDS, University of Pennsylvania and MS in
Oral Biology, Loyola University of Chicago) and an original researcher of
Neanderthals, is the author of Buried Alive. This book sets forth the
thesis that human craniofacial structures continue to change with aging and
that Neanderthals were humans who lived to be hundreds of years old
(post-flood). If anything, humans are devolving.

Dr. Joseph Mastropaolo, physiologist for the human engine of the Gossamer Condor and Gossamer Albatross man-powered flight projects (reported in theNational Geographic), received his doctorate from the University of Iowa.
Dr. Mastropaolo does not believe evolution qualifies as science.

Dr. Robert A. Herrmann -- Professor of Mathematics, U. S. Naval Academy
Dr. Ian Macreadie -- molecular biology and microbiology researcher,
Principal Research Scientist at the Biomolecular Research Institute of
Australia's Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization
(CSIRO)

Dr. Felix Konotey-Ahulu, M.D., FRCP, DTMH, world authority on sickle-cell
disease, 25 years' experience as physician, clinical geneticist and
consultant in Ghana and subsequently in London. Visiting professor at
Howard University College of Medicine in Washington, and honorary
consultant to its Centre for Sickle Cell Disease. Author of 643-page
monograph "The Sickle Cell Disease Patient", Macmillan, 1991.

Dr. AwSwee-Eng, Ph.D., former Associate Professor of Biochemistry, Univ. of
Singapore, head of Dept. of Nuclear Medicine & Director of Clinical
Research , Singapore General Hospital, Author of about 30 technical papers
in biochemistry and nuclear medicine.

John K. Reed ¨ Principal Engineer, Westinghouse Savannah River Company,
(1999-present) ¨ degrees - B.S. geology (Furman Univ.), M.S. geology (Univ.
of Georgia), Ph.D. geology (Univ. of South Carolina) ¨ other qualifications
- Senior Production Geologist (Sun Exploration and Production Co., Houston,
1982-1988); Research Asst. Prof. (Earth Sciences and Resources Institute,
Univ. of South Carolina, 1988-1991); Exploration Manager (PetraTex, Dallas,
1991-1992) Partner (Strata Consulting Services, Dallas, 1992); Sr.
Scientist (Westinghouse Savannah River Company, 1992-1999); ten articles in
CRS Quarterly; 14 articles in secular scientific journals, Associate Editor
for Geology for CRS Quarterly.

(Reference Canada's Creation Information Portal)


For evolutionists to imply creationist uneducated ignorance as the source of their belief is simply a demonstration of evolutionists own denial of the facts. It is simply a fact that many well educated former evolutionists have jumped the fence in light of research they see as favouring creation and falsifying evolution.

What won't score points in entering the pearly gates is being hateful towards your fellow man.