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Christian Denial...how do you reconcile it?

Ana the Ist

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This question goes out to all the christian posters here on CF. It's regarding that story you don't tell....

Allow me to frame this question with an example so you know what I'm talking about. As christians, a great many of you have stories about that time when you turned to god for advice/help/need. I know this because I've read a decent number of your testimonials. It might look like this....

"I prayed to god every night for him to send me that good christian man who would love me the way I love Jesus!"

Or...

"After she betrayed my trust, I didn't know if i could still be her friend...so I prayed to god every night for a sign that I could let my guard down and be her friend once again."

I'm sure you get the idea...it could be any number of things that you prayed about. The story usually continues with some small passage of time, then god gives you the sign, or he heals your sick father, or he sends you the perfect wife/husband, etc. The story usually ends happily ever after with a little affirmation that god is good and if you just hang in there, have faith in him, pray, and do whatever else it is good christians do....your prayers will be answered.

On the flip side of that coin you also see the stories that are a lot more dire...where the need is greater...and god seems suddenly absent when it comes to prayer. Those stories look like this...

"Everything was fine at first, but after the first couple of years he started beating me for almost any reason. He's been coming home late smelling like strippers and he never wants to have sex anymore. I've prayed to god every night for the past three years to change my husband and make him see the glory of god, but my prayers remain unanswered."

The responses to these types of threads are usually quite kind and understanding. Often, the responses come with genuinely good advice...sometime they don't. Sometimes a reply is thrown in there that amounts to "god put you in this situation for a reason, learn from it/deal with it/accept it". To me, it appears that person is trying to reconcile to themselves why such a bad thing would happen to a good christian. Anyway, the story that I never see christians tell is the one that would appear between the two stories...

1st story: I was so sick of being lonely and crying myself to sleep every night. I prayed to god constantly to send me that good christian husband I could call my own...and then one day god sent him to me.

2nd story (the one you guys never share) We had dated for awhile and everything was perfect! He's got all the qualities a good christian husband should have! Still, I had some reservations about marrying him after only knowing him for three weeks...so I prayed to god to send me a sign to show me if he's the one for me. Finally, after two weeks of praying, I had a dream where...(or) god spoke to me in a quiet still voice...(or) after praying I was overcome with emotion that felt like love! I had my sign and I knew he was the one! God is so great.....

3rd story: He beats me, he cheats on me, he'd ruined my car, he made me give up all my friends, he ignores our kid....

It's that second story I'm interested in, the one where you (the christian) asked god for something whether it was a sign or a person or whatever...and then you got it. You received whatever confirmation you needed from god and you were so sure you were making the right decision. Then later you found out it was the wrong decision entirely... you made a big big mistake and now (or then) you were stuck with the consequences.

What happened there? How do you explain that to yourself? Do you choose to forget about it? Ignore it? Do you decide that you misread the sign? Do you tell yourself it's all part of some plan to teach you something or maybe put you in a place where someone needed you?

Do you just deny it happened? How do you reconcile this mistake? I'm guessing you don't blame god...but do you blame yourself even though you put it in god's hands and placed your faith in him?

I'd like to read your stories of where it went wrong for you...what the sign was that you were mistaken about....and how you reconcile it. I know that's a tall order. Let's see who's brave enough to answer. :doh:
 

Colter

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Good questions!

The short answer is, young, spiritually immature man, spends a great deal of time telling God what we want, what our will is for God rather than asking God what Gods will is for us. God then becomes more of a Santa Clause rather than our spiritual leader.

If your husband turns out rotten and won't get help, leave him if you want to! It's an old myth that God joins people together.

You can rest assured that if God joins something together, it's not coming apart!

From my guide book:



Conditions of Effective Prayer

"If you would engage in effective praying, you should bear in mind the laws of prevailing petitions:

1. You must qualify as a potent prayer by sincerely and courageously facing the problems of universe reality. You must possess cosmic stamina.

2. You must have honestly exhausted the human capacity for human adjustment. You must have been industrious.

3. You must surrender every wish of mind and every craving of soul to the transforming embrace of spiritual growth. You must have experienced an enhancement of meanings and an elevation of values.

4. You must make a wholehearted choice of the divine will. You must obliterate the dead center of indecision.

5. You not only recognize the Father’s will and choose to do it, but you have effected an unqualified consecration, and a dynamic dedication, to the actual doing of the Father’s will.

6. Your prayer will be directed exclusively for divine wisdom to solve the specific human problems encountered in the Paradise ascension — the attainment of divine perfection.

7. And you must have faith — living faith.

UB 1955
 
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Smidlee

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Good questions!

The short answer is, young, spiritually immature man, spends a great deal of time telling God what we want, what our will is for God rather than asking God what Gods will is for us. God then becomes more of a Santa Clause rather than our spiritual leader.

Amen , brother. I didn't ask God to send me (the second time) a good wife but I asked him to help be a blessing to someone else and change my desires so when I marry a woman it's for the right reasons.
I know some women got mad at me for pointing out at the end we are the ones who chooses our mate and most of the time (not every time as there are always exceptions) we welcome the vampires into our lives. I've got myself into more trouble than everyone else put together.

It's not my bother, not my sister but it's me ole Lord who standing in the need of prayer.

If your husband turns out rotten and won't get help, leave him if you want to! It's an old myth that God joins people together.

Now I disagree it's a myth God does in fact joins people together but not every couple. A lot of times we marry for selfish reasons which surprisingly most of my Christian friends admit they married for the wrong reasons. Sometimes God can still work out their marriage in spite of this fact if both are willing to submit to God's will.
 
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juvenissun

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It's that second story I'm interested in, the one where you (the christian) asked god for something whether it was a sign or a person or whatever...and then you got it. You received whatever confirmation you needed from god and you were so sure you were making the right decision. Then later you found out it was the wrong decision entirely... you made a big big mistake and now (or then) you were stuck with the consequences.

A prayer could be answered with Yes, or No.
Either answer does not say anything about the consequence of the answer.
So, your stories and questions are, in fact, meaningless.

What is then the question which should follow?
Obvious: If so, why pray?

That is the real question you should ask.
 
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PsychoSarah

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A prayer could be answered with Yes, or No.
Either answer does not say anything about the consequence of the answer.
So, your stories and questions are, in fact, meaningless.

What is then the question which should follow?
Obvious: If so, why pray?

That is the real question you should ask.

Basically, prayer would have the same real life result regardless as to whether or not deities actually exist. Not exactly helpful
 
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Ana the Ist

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A prayer could be answered with Yes, or No.
Either answer does not say anything about the consequence of the answer.
So, your stories and questions are, in fact, meaningless.

What is then the question which should follow?
Obvious: If so, why pray?

That is the real question you should ask.

So if someone thinks they should quit their job of 10 years to pursue their dream of surfing the world's biggest wave and they pray to god for a sign that they should do this...and they get it....you're saying the answered prayer has nothing to do with the consequences?

I'll bite....why pray then?
 
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Colter

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So if someone thinks they should quit their job of 10 years to pursue their dream of surfing the world's biggest wave and they pray to god for a sign that they should do this...and they get it....you're saying the answered prayer has nothing to do with the consequences?

I'll bite....why pray then?

If guidance is what a person looks for then seeking advice from others would help eliminate our own wishful thinking from the equation. Often an unbiased friend could effectively show how irresponsible our own impulsive thinking can be in such a situation.

Again, what is Gods will for us not what is our will for God.
 
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bhsmte

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If guidance is what a person looks for then seeking advice from others would help eliminate our own wishful thinking from the equation. Often an unbiased friend could effectively show how irresponsible our own impulsive thinking can be in such a situation.

Again, what is Gods will for us not what is our will for God.

That all sounds wonderful, but it would appear, the human psyche tends to identify God's will, as what fits best for the individual person.

Quite interesting to watch this game in action, though.
 
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juvenissun

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So if someone thinks they should quit their job of 10 years to pursue their dream of surfing the world's biggest wave and they pray to god for a sign that they should do this...and they get it....you're saying the answered prayer has nothing to do with the consequences?

I'll bite....why pray then?

God says: go to surf.
Then he quits the job and becomes a surfer.
Good or bad, regret or not, that is the answer from God.
That means: God will take the responsibility of the consequence, if the person is hurt or even died from the surfing.
In a bad situation, some capable one takes the full responsibility. Do you appreciate the meaning of it?
 
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juvenissun

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Basically, prayer would have the same real life result regardless as to whether or not deities actually exist. Not exactly helpful

Any human knows YOUR real life? I doubt it. I eat, drink, walk and sleep like everyone else. Do I have my real life like anyone else? I don't think so.

My life is unique in this universe. Do you see the uniqueness? According to what you said, you do not see it.
 
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Colter

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That all sounds wonderful, but it would appear, the human psyche tends to identify God's will, as what fits best for the individual person.

Quite interesting to watch this game in action, though.

It appears that way to you because you left faith and now view everything through the Atheist bias. It could now be your own wishful thinking that distorts your own perception.

As I pointed out, sorting through the maze of our own bias isn't easy but the more we practice listening for the guidance of the spirit, the easier it gets to identify, but still hard to do.


"And when sin has so many times been chosen and so often been repeated, it may become habitual. Habitual sinners can easily become iniquitous, become wholehearted rebels against the universe and all of its divine realities. While all manner of sins may be forgiven, we doubt whether the established iniquiter would ever sincerely experience sorrow for his misdeeds or accept forgiveness for his sins." UB 1955
 
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bhsmte

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It appears that way to you because you left faith and now view everything through the Atheist bias. It could now be your own wishful thinking that distorts your own perception.

As I pointed out sorting through the maze of our own bias isn't easy but the more we practice listening for the guidance of the spirit the easier it gets to identify but still hard to do.


"And when sin has so many times been chosen and so often been repeated, it may become habitual. Habitual sinners can easily become iniquitous, become wholehearted rebels against the universe and all of its divine realities. While all manner of sins may be forgiven, we doubt whether the established iniquiter would ever sincerely experience sorrow for his misdeeds or accept forgiveness for his sins." UB 1955

When I left Christianity, I put wishful thinking behind me. I can understand why you need to feel that you though.
 
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Colter

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When I left Christianity, I put wishful thinking behind me. I can understand why you need to feel that you though.

You never did have a relationship with God, merely a membership at a social club. Leaving that is understandable.
 
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Smidlee

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Sure, whatever works for you.

Well I'm not someone to say who belong to God but I have witness so many times people who went to church for the whole life to suddenly get saved in church. My church even support a missionary for a few years when our pastor got a phone call from that missionary excitedly telling him he just got saved. My pastor wife was a Sunday school teacher for 20 years when suddenly during a revive she screamed out "I can't take it anyone. I need to be saved." ( I visit a church last spring where over 40 church members gave their life to Christ. Some of them were old men and women who went to that church for years)

So when an atheist claims he was a super duper saint but lost his faith I can't help to wonder if he just like so many in the church who was just being "religious".
 
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bhsmte

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Well I'm not someone to say who belong to God but I have witness so many times people who went to church for the whole life to suddenly get saved in church. My church even support a missionary for a few years when our pastor got a phone call from that missionary excitedly telling him he just got saved. My pastor wife was a Sunday school teacher for 20 years when suddenly during a revive she screamed out "I can't take it anyone. I need to be saved." ( I visit a church last spring where over 40 church members gave their life to Christ. Some of them were old men and women who went to that church for years)

So when an atheist claims he was a super duper saint but lost his faith I can't help to wonder if he just like so many in the church who was just being "religious".

Super duper saint?????????

I know this is painful for some, but there are plenty of people who did believe and they ended up not believing. Why did this happen, a number of reasons, that are specific to each person.

Of course, I understand the need, for a certain type of believer to declare, if someone stopped believing, they never knew God in the first place, or something to that effect.

Hey, whatever makes you feel better, knock yourself out.
 
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Smidlee

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Super duper saint?????????

I know this is painful for some, but there are plenty of people who did believe and they ended up not believing. Why did this happen, a number of reasons, that are specific to each person.

.
Believe what? Why a believer become an atheist? Not because there is overwhelming there isn't a God. Now it makes sense a atheist becoming a Christian since this involves a person, Jesus Christ.
Is there one atheist who would admit they were just playing church and they realize they were a hypocrite which lead them to be an atheist?

James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doesth well: the devil also believe and tremble.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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Ana the Ist said:
I'd like to read your stories of where it went wrong for you...what the sign was that you were mistaken about....and how you reconcile it. I know that's a tall order. Let's see who's brave enough to answer. :doh:
My third wife. The short version is I thought God 'sent her to me'. I don't think that any more.

No. I didn't see a cross in the sky or a burning bush or anything really sexy like that. Didn't even have my lottery ticket win. But I did some praying and felt like marrying that last one was 'right'.

The slightly longer version is I didn't do all of it properly. There are times I am my own worst enemy. But I'm learning.

Now. Here's the reason it doesn't seem to work all the time. Or ever, for that matter.

I am a Christian. I have a personal relationship with Almighty God through the Sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. Therefore, God 'owns' me. God has a goal for me; God wants me - and all Christians - to be Holy, just as He is Holy.

So when I pray, one of the conditions is that I pray in accordance with God's will. God's will - for discussion and teaching purposes - is divided into two sections, a 'general will' and a 'specific will'. While I should rather aware of God's 'general will' - all people understanding and accepting Jesus as Savior, an end to family, plague and so on - I may or may not be perfectly aware of God's 'specific will' for me. For instance, I don't know when I'm going to the range again. I don't know if God wants me there today, tomorrow or doesn't give a hoot when I go. (I suspect the latter, but I cannot be sure.)

The other condition for praying is I must listen. I must give God time to 'tell' me the answer to my question. Please understand, it does not come in the form of something like the public announcement system at the bus station. Nor the message to Paul on the road to Damascus. It usually comes when my mind is involved in the issue itself and surrendered to God.

If you want to think I'm merely solving my own problems, feel free if that makes you feel better. It's going on in my head and frankly I know better than you do.

Remember the part earlier about God wanting me to be Holy, as He is Holy?

God's primary desire is not for me to be happy. He prefers me to be happy, but not at the cost of being Holy. God does not want for me to be rich. It's okay with God for me to be rich, but only after being Holy. Same for health, fame, smart, well-spoken, charming, trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent. All that stuff is great, but HOLY comes first. Many of those qualities are by-products of being Holy.

So prayer to God is not a magical 'get out of jail' card, or a cosmic vending machine (with prayers and sacrificial 'trades' as coin). God is not the great Grandpa in the sky who throws 'goodies' to all the followers without regard, etc.

And a good part of prayer is finding out what I wanted isn't really going to work. Or that what I thought was proper was not exactly wrong but missed the point.

The late Will Rodgers once said, "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." I really think this should be the opening statement in any study of Christian prayer.
 
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