Christian Dems take on debt ceiling in new ads

[MachZer0]

SS and Medicare take money from people who earned it and give it to people that didn't as well.

Some people do collect Social Security without ever paying into it, and I find that objectionable as well.

If I live to 95 I'll get back more than I put in. If I die at 60 I'll get back less than I put in.

And that is an excellent argument in favor of privatizing Social Security

 

[NotreDame]

So if I give you a $20 with which to order a pizza you are saying that you don't have the "power" to order a pizza? You do not think you have not only the "power" but an actual mandate to order the pizza?

What else are you going to do with that money I gave you?

The money is taken in (in part) to promote the general welfare.

That's what the money is for.

I cannot imagine any way for that to not be a direct indication that "general welfare promotion" is a government power.

Poor analogy...this argument addresses absolutely nothing I said in my post. Try addressing what I actually said. This is the second time you have sought to respond to a post I have made but have not made any comments germane to what I actually asserted.

This is what I previously said.

Promote the general welfare is not and has never been a power for the government to exercise. The preamble has never been a grant of power. The governments powers are in article one, two and three of the US Constitution. Those principles are only achievable by the enumerated powers in articles one, two, or three. Otherwise, those articles enumerating government powers makes no sense if other powers are located elsewhere.

The preamble is nothing more than a declaration. We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

In other words, this is why we do ordain and establish this Constitution, as opposed to, here are the powers of the government under the U.S. Constitution.

Then, Article One reads, "
Article I

Section 1.

All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives. Then under section 8 there is the phrase, "Section 8. The Congress shall have power to

So, Congress' powers are enumerated in Article One, and the Framers designated Article One as the section for Congressional power.

Article II reads, in part, and begins by stating, "The executive power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America..." and subsequently, the powers of the executive are enumerated. Article III reads in a similar or identical manner.

So the Framers were careful to enumerate the powers of the government in articles one, two or three. It is interesting the phrases "power of" is conspicuously absent and missing from the preamble, precisely and exactly because the preamble is not a grant of power to any branch of government.

 

[Umaro]

Some people do collect Social Security without ever paying into it, and I find that objectionable as well.
And that is an excellent argument in favor of privatizing Social Security

What about the fire department and police? There's no specific named tax for those, it comes out of the general taxes. Does that mean you're not paying into the fire department should your house catch on fire?

 

[MachZer0]

What about the fire department and police? There's no specific named tax for those, it comes out of the general taxes. Does that mean you're not paying into the fire department should your house catch on fire?

Police and fire depts are state and local issues and thus fall as noted by the Tenth Amendment

 

[Umaro]

Police and fire depts are state and local issues and thus fall as noted by the Tenth Amendment

What part of government it's on isn't the point of contention. You made the claim would be better to cut welfare than SS or medicare because people have paid into SS and medicare their entire working lives on the premise they might get it back. I pointed out that people also pay into welfare, police, and fire departments their entire working lives on the premise they might get it back. They're the same concept, a social safety net. You seem to dislike one more than the others though. Is that because you see less of a likelihood of yourself becoming poor than becoming old?

 

[MachZer0]

What part of government it's on isn't the point of contention. You made the claim would be better to cut welfare than SS or medicare because people have paid into SS and medicare their entire working lives on the premise they might get it back.

Yes, in the federal budget

I pointed out that people also pay into welfare, police, and fire departments their entire working lives on the premise they might get it back. They're the same concept, a social safety net. You seem to dislike one more than the others though. Is that because you see less of a likelihood of yourself becoming poor than becoming old?

Now you're mixing state budgets and federal budgets. Those are two separate discussions

 

[Umaro]

Yes, in the federal budgetNow you're mixing state budgets and federal budgets. Those are two separate discussions

State or federal doesn't matter when the point of contention is "you payed into it on the premise you might get it back." Every one of those programs works the same way. We all pay into them and will get them back should we need. In that regard, medicare, SS and welfare all operate under the same system.

 

[MachZer0]

State or federal doesn't matter when the point of contention is "you payed into it on the premise you might get it back." Every one of those programs works the same way. We all pay into them and will get them back should we need. In that regard, medicare, SS and welfare all operate under the same system.

It matters because the discussion is about federal government. Please see the OP

 

[Umaro]

It matters because the discussion is about federal government. Please see the OP

Do you understand what the point of contention is? Do you understand what point of contention means?

 

[MachZer0]

Do you understand what the point of contention is? Do you understand what point of contention means?

I understadn that shifting the focus away from the topic of federal budgets to state and local budgets is a red herring.

 

[Umaro]

I understadn that shifting the focus away from the topic of federal budgets to state and local budgets is a red herring.

We're not even contending the budget right now though, we're contending that you pay into a system with a possible return, and why you consider welfare to be different than SS or medicare.

 

[MachZer0]

We're not even contending the budget right now though, we're contending that you pay into a system with a possible return, and why you consider welfare to be different than SS or medicare.

Yes, pay into a federal system. And the reason they are different is that you pay SPECIFICALLY into Social Security and Medicare.

 

[Umaro]

Yes, pay into a federal system. And the reason they are different is that you pay SPECIFICALLY into Social Security and Medicare.

And that makes it different how?

 

[MachZer0]

And that makes it different how?

Mostly because the topic here is the federal budget.

 

[Umaro]

Mostly because the topic here is the federal budget.

I mean paying for it specifically as opposed to paying for it in the general budget makes SS and welfare different how exactly? In practical terms.

 

[MachZer0]

I mean paying for it specifically as opposed to paying for it in the general budget makes SS and welfare different how exactly? In practical terms.

With Social Security and Medicare, you have a specific expectation that you will be eligible for those benefits in the future. They are enumerated on your taxes. The funds are specifically collected for those purposes. Not so with welfare which is blended in with the rest of the taxes.

 

[Umaro]

With Social Security and Medicare, you have a specific expectation that you will be eligible for those benefits in the future. They are enumerated on your taxes. The funds are specifically collected for those purposes. Not so with welfare which is blended in with the rest of the taxes.

A specific amount of funds come out of the general taxes to go towards welfare though. I could look up exactly how much of my paycheck went to welfare last year, just like I could look up exactly how much went to SS. Having it separately named seems largely irrelevant.

 

[MachZer0]

A specific amount of funds come out of the general taxes to go towards welfare though. I could look up exactly how much of my paycheck went to welfare last year, just like I could look up exactly how much went to SS. Having it separately named seems largely irrelevant.

Then please do that. I'd like to see how you calculate it?

 

[Umaro]

Then please do that. I'd like to see how you calculate it?

$299 Unemployment Trust Fund
$125 Payments to the Unemployment Trust Fund
$117 Civil Service Retirement and Disability Fund
$114 Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program
$78 Supplemental Security Income Program
$28 Temporary Assistance for Needy Families
$28 Child Nutrition Programs


$789/40,000 went towards welfare and unemployment.

For reference SS was $1243 and Medicare was $580. Doesn't seem like a terrible burden to me, and should I ever lose my savings, it'll be there for me, just like SS will be should I live past 67 or whatever the age is now.

Where did my tax dollars go?

 

[MachZer0]

$299 Unemployment Trust Fund
$125 Payments to the Unemployment Trust Fund
$117 Civil Service Retirement and Disability Fund
$114 Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program
$78 Supplemental Security Income Program
$28 Temporary Assistance for Needy Families
$28 Child Nutrition Programs


$789/40,000 went towards welfare and unemployment.

Those are estimates

For reference SS was $1243 and Medicare was $580. Doesn't seem like a terrible burden to me, and should I ever lose my savings, it'll be there for me, just like SS will be should I live past 67 or whatever the age is now.

Where did my tax dollars go?

Your Social Security and Medicare are taxed specifically for Social Security and Medicare