Christian Art in the Home

[bradfordl]

Errr when I pray about some things, sometimes God answers. This is what I am referring to. I am not saying rationalize it in your own mind, but seek God in all things. Nothing wrong with that.

Ma'am, I believe this is a reformed christian sub-forum. Is there a reason that you find it necessary to post your opinions here? As a christian, do you think there might be somewhat of an issue when you disobey posted sub-forum rules? There is an 'Ask a Calvinist' and a 'Debate a Calvinist' sub-forums that you can access at the top of the page to post questions or debate as you need, but it is a violation of the rules to post answers or opinions within the Semper Reformanda forum itself unless you are a reformed christian. Please comply with these rules.

 

[DD2008]

I don't think she was telling me to engage in idolatry or anything. I think she was just suggesting to pray and ask God and try and discern if having those items in the house was in accordance with His will or not.

Or did I miss something? I don't think she meant any harm.

 

[bradfordl]

DD,

I know you probably consider my response to her to be terse, but let's for a moment look at it from another angle. You are a newly reformed christian. You are wrestling, as we all did (believe me, i was just as Jesus-picture friendly and existential in my theology as any good pentecostal in my past), with issues that derive from a lot of baggage from both the papists and arminian baptists. You have already been misguided into joining an apostate denom just because it retains a label that has not fit it's theology for many decades. You are asking about whether it is acceptable to violate scripture and ordain women to Church office. You are wondering if it is acceptable to violate the second commandment of the decalogue by having images of the living God. From my perspective, you are a man sorely under attack, and do not realize it. Along comes a non-reformed person to advise you on one of these subjects, in open violation of the rules of this site promoting unbiblical philosophical ideas that would encourage you to 'follow your heart', when it appears to this old calvinist that 'following your heart' is a huge part of why you are so susceptible to being drawn aside by apostates. Now, it may well be that you are one of the elect, which is my greatest hope for you, or it may be that you are a wolf in sheep's clothing - I have no way of knowing. But if you are the former, it is my duty to state the truth in love to you, and to protect you from those who would make shipwreck of your faith. If you are the latter, then it would behoove us to prevent any allies of such to come along and bolster your arguments, if only for the benefit of other younger christians who may be reading these forums. So all I ask is that someone like that reveal to us their true nature by asking them to behave as a christian would, and refrain from breaking the rules here.

I hope that explains some things you see that might appear offensive to you if you did not know my perspective.

 

[MattHall]

I sometimes describe Reformed people as grumpy... because the "good-meaning" actions and statements of others often receive condemnation. Reformed theology is at odds with mainstream American Christianity. Thank God.

Bradford is correct of course in his rebukes. Scripture is our primary authority, if scripture is clear on the issue then praying for God's will is an act of redundancy or lack of trust.

 

[Epiphoskei]

I sometimes describe Reformed people as grumpy... because the "good-meaning" actions and statements of others often receive condemnation. Reformed theology is at odds with mainstream American Christianity. Thank God.

Mind you, we're equally well meaning, we just have a tendancy to be concerned about things others think trivial.

 

[MattHall]

Mind you, we're equally well meaning, we just have a tendancy to be concerned about things others think trivial.

Absolutely. Did not intend to imply that we are not.

 

[DD2008]

DD,

I know you probably consider my response to her to be terse, but let's for a moment look at it from another angle. You are a newly reformed christian. You are wrestling, as we all did (believe me, i was just as Jesus-picture friendly and existential in my theology as any good pentecostal in my past), with issues that derive from a lot of baggage from both the papists and arminian baptists. You have already been misguided into joining an apostate denom just because it retains a label that has not fit it's theology for many decades. You are asking about whether it is acceptable to violate scripture and ordain women to Church office. You are wondering if it is acceptable to violate the second commandment of the decalogue by having images of the living God. From my perspective, you are a man sorely under attack, and do not realize it. Along comes a non-reformed person to advise you on one of these subjects, in open violation of the rules of this site promoting unbiblical philosophical ideas that would encourage you to 'follow your heart', when it appears to this old calvinist that 'following your heart' is a huge part of why you are so susceptible to being drawn aside by apostates. Now, it may well be that you are one of the elect, which is my greatest hope for you, or it may be that you are a wolf in sheep's clothing - I have no way of knowing. But if you are the former, it is my duty to state the truth in love to you, and to protect you from those who would make shipwreck of your faith. If you are the latter, then it would behoove us to prevent any allies of such to come along and bolster your arguments, if only for the benefit of other younger christians who may be reading these forums. So all I ask is that someone like that reveal to us their true nature by asking them to behave as a christian would, and refrain from breaking the rules here.

I hope that explains some things you see that might appear offensive to you if you did not know my perspective.

You are a plain talker. I have to admit, you don't run into all that many. Thanks for the advice. I appreciate it. Please don't get upset if we disagree on certain topics. I have a bible, a mind, and a prayer life as well.

 

[DD2008]

I sometimes describe Reformed people as grumpy... because the "good-meaning" actions and statements of others often receive condemnation. Reformed theology is at odds with mainstream American Christianity. Thank God.

Bradford is correct of course in his rebukes. Scripture is our primary authority, if scripture is clear on the issue then praying for God's will is an act of redundancy or lack of trust.

Mind you, we're equally well meaning, we just have a tendancy to be concerned about things others think trivial.

Absolutely. Did not intend to imply that we are not.

Thanks guys. I hope you don't think that just because I have no problems with the gender of the pastor that I disregard scripture. I don't I just don't think the Bible is as easy as some think it is. Some parts are very easy and even a child can understand it. Others if read plainly can lead on into error. It must be used with caution. I'm not convinced that women can't be ordained. I think that's our only real difference though. However that is understandable as thisis a multi-denominational board and Presbyterianism is a multidenominational philoshophy.

 

[MattHall]

DD. I do think if you disregard gender of the Pastor you are disregarding scripture.

It is clear in principal ... Adam is clearly the head of Eve. God makes covenants with men; Abraham, Noah, David. The 12 Disciples chosen by Jesus are all men.

It is also directly stated. 1 Timothy 2, 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1.

 

[AndOne]

Thanks guys. I hope you don't think that just because I have no problems with the gender of the pastor that I disregard scripture. I don't I just don't think the Bible is as easy as some think it is. Some parts are very easy and even a child can understand it. Others if read plainly can lead on into error. It must be used with caution. I'm not convinced that women can't be ordained. I think that's our only real difference though. However that is understandable as thisis a multi-denominational board and Presbyterianism is a multidenominational philoshophy.

Actually I think it's all pretty easy to understand. Thankfully scripture and theology are NOT rocket science - nor were they ever intended to be. I have found that the parts that tend to be most difficult to understand have at times been the parts that tend to challenge you in what you THINK should be right or wrong but doesn't necessarily match up with what you think is right or wrong....

 

[AndOne]

DD - take a look at this when you get a chance bro - http://www.cbmw.org/Recovering-Biblical-Manhood-and-Womanhood/

 

[DD2008]

DD. I do think if you disregard gender of the Pastor you are disregarding scripture.

It is clear in principal ... Adam is clearly the head of Eve. God makes covenants with men; Abraham, Noah, David. The 12 Disciples chosen by Jesus are all men.

It is also directly stated. 1 Timothy 2, 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1.

Actually I think it's all pretty easy to understand. Thankfully scripture and theology are NOT rocket science - nor were they ever intended to be. I have found that the parts that tend to be most difficult to understand have at times been the parts that tend to challenge you in what you THINK should be right or wrong but doesn't necessarily match up with what you think is right or wrong....

DD - take a look at this when you get a chance bro - http://www.cbmw.org/Recovering-Biblical-Manhood-and-Womanhood/

Thanks for the link. I'll look into it. I'll see if I can find it local so I can preview it.

Have you guys checked out this link?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/nfe_bibl.htm

 

[MattHall]

I'll run through the list of scripture on that website DD

John 1 - About salvation. Not Church Leadership.
Acts 2 - Same
Acts 9 - Disciple is simply a student. Christ left his church to the 12 he had chosen. We are all his disciples.
Acts 18 - Priscilla is working alongside her husband and under his authority.
Acts 21:9 - Um. My bible read that they prophesied. Not that they held an office of prophetess. -- They were exercising a spiritual gift, not leadership.
Romans 16:1 - They tell you that people are intentionally mistranslating the word. The ESV which carries a lot of respect in the academic and theological community translates it "servant" but in the notes offers deaconness. -- I trust the scholarship behind this bible, but if you want me to I'll pull out my greek word study skills.
Romans 16:3 -- Yes, Prisicilla was a fellow worker alongside her husband. This does not have to do with leadership.
Romans 16:7 -- This one is debated. Perhaps a husband and wife team. perhaps two men. -- Junia is not just a female name, but could be male. (I will note that my bible does not insert "men" in the scripture.)

Okay... I'm going to stop there... but I'll continue if you want...

 

[DD2008]

I'll run through the list of scripture on that website DD

John 1 - About salvation. Not Church Leadership.
Acts 2 - Same
Acts 9 - Disciple is simply a student. Christ left his church to the 12 he had chosen. We are all his disciples.
Acts 18 - Priscilla is working alongside her husband and under his authority.
Acts 21:9 - Um. My bible read that they prophesied. Not that they held an office of prophetess. -- They were exercising a spiritual gift, not leadership.
Romans 16:1 - They tell you that people are intentionally mistranslating the word. The ESV which carries a lot of respect in the academic and theological community translates it "servant" but in the notes offers deaconness. -- I trust the scholarship behind this bible, but if you want me to I'll pull out my greek word study skills.
Romans 16:3 -- Yes, Prisicilla was a fellow worker alongside her husband. This does not have to do with leadership.
Romans 16:7 -- This one is debated. Perhaps a husband and wife team. perhaps two men. -- Junia is not just a female name, but could be male. (I will note that my bible does not insert "men" in the scripture.)

Okay... I'm going to stop there... but I'll continue if you want...

Thanks. I really think this argument boils down to Paul and if a person believes Paul was commanding or suggesting to Timothy. I lean towards suggesting. I'm not bothered by women pastors. I'm not bothered by women in authotity. I served under a woman Colonel. I had a woman drill sergeant....etc

I am certain that in every way other than physically women are the equal of men.

I have a suspicion that Timothy had a woman teaching in his diocese that was pregnant and Timothy had asked Paul what to do with her when the child was born...etc So Paul elaborated as we have all read. That is my personal speculation however.

 

[bradfordl]

Scripture is inerrant... except where it counters your 'contemporary' opinions, then it is addressing some scandalous situation that you invent by spurious speculation?

Dude, who do you believe in, Jesus Christ, or your own 'feelings' about things and whether they 'bother' you or not?

Please look up dialectic materialism and existentialism to get an idea of the philosophies that you may be oblivious to, but that seem to permeate your thoughts.

 

[DD2008]

Scripture is inerrant... except where it counters your 'contemporary' opinions, then it is addressing some scandalous situation that you invent by spurious speculation?

Dude, who do you believe in, Jesus Christ, or your own 'feelings' about things and whether they 'bother' you or not?

Please look up dialectic materialism and existentialism to get an idea of the philosophies that you may be oblivious to, but that seem to permeate your thoughts.

I agree that scripture is inerrant. Paul or the writer of Timothy certainly did give his suggestion on this matter to him. Scripture records this inerrantly.

Now what is left for us to decide is why, who is being addressed, is this a command or a suggetion, is he talking about a women or all women, what kind of scripture is this? Is it a law or is it simple recorded historical dialog (which ther is much in the bible) ...etc

No one is saying that the bible contains errors, it doesn't. What people are trying to decide is what does it inerrantly say? In this case does it really say anything to the church at all or just give the church an insight into the personal opinions of Paul or the writer of this letter?

 

[JCFantasy23]

There is if what a person believes is an answer from God does not comport with the clear teachings of His holy and inspired Word.

This is true, one must tread carefully - I agree. But once a close relationship with God is established, I believe much can be revealed by asking through prayer. I've had much cleared up this way on questions I've had about what something meant in the bible.

 

[DD2008]

This is true, one must tread carefully - I agree. But once a close relationship with God is established, I believe much can be revealed by asking through prayer. I've had much cleared up this way on questions I've had about what something meant in the bible.

I agree.

 

[MattHall]

I don't want to discount prayer. But... prayer in this context should be for wisdom.

There are tools and resources we can use to get an academic understanding of the scripture. Word studies, concordances, commentaries... we should exhaust all of these before we settle on an answer that satisfies our heart. (Or you know not settle at all.)

 

[DD2008]

I don't want to discount prayer. But... prayer in this context should be for wisdom.

There are tools and resources we can use to get an academic understanding of the scripture. Word studies, concordances, commentaries... we should exhaust all of these before we settle on an answer that satisfies our heart. (Or you know not settle at all.)

I think that's very wise advice. Thanks.