"Christian" Arrogance

[motherprayer]

Thanks for that blessing of a compliment .

Aw you're welcome. I always enjoy your posts, because they show that you have truly been humbled by our Lord

 

[Forge3]

Arrogance? A trait of me when I give into frustration.

 

[PetLuv]

As a Christian, I too would like to hear what non Christians think on things like this. Open and honest discussion is what I expect from a Christian Forum. I just left Worthy Christian Forums for this exact reason PetLuv. The arrogance of some Christians is overwhelming and I am a Christian, lol. Their are good Christians out there but it seems some Christians fear the truth. When someone confronts them with the truth, that is opposite to what their faith tells them, they become afraid and therefore defensive, manipulative and extremely arrogant. it allows them to ignore the truth, in place of their faith...For ex: Galileo being locked up in prison by the Church to keep him quiet and stop the truth coming out. Is this the type of arrogance you mean

Firstly, thank you for your well written and involved reply, it is very appreciated in light of some of the history this thread has.

In some ways, yes that is what I mean, the apparent "head in the sand" mentality and refusal to fully discuss topics.
In other ways I refer to something that we both have seen in this very thread; which is the misuse of scripture; in what appears to be an attempt to insult, or to halt the conversation because they do not use the correct or complete references so someone who is not schooled on the scriptures cannot continue the conversation. I find such behavior insulting to both parties and to the religion itself because it is nothing more than a lie.
As well as some others that at this point I don't care to get into due to the history this thread already has..

I enjoy a good discussion but not when it is one sided. I am hoping Christian Forums believe in freedom of speech because Worthy forums shut down any non Believer that presents a good argument. I personally believe in freedom of speech, not filtered and manipulated agendas...

As a Christian, I believe we should all be as honest as we can. PetLuv, I don't think Jesus displayed this kind of arrogance and manipulation, regardless of Aiki's manipulation of scripture. Not all Christians are like this. it's a very small part of Christianity, that seem to have a very big hold over general Christianity because of their money and ability to advertise in the western world. I call it American Christianity but it is more known as Fundamental Christianity...A very new and extreme form of Christianity, no older than the 20th century. Have fun discussing anything with them, haha.

In thinking on this, I will venture that perhaps my conclusions were somewhat skewed and that it is not actually a majority of Christians, but a majority of those who call themselves Christian Teachers that behave in such a way.
My apologies if that is the case.
I have a high expectation on the passing of knowledge - both in my own teaching of others and those who take on the roll of teacher, and the above traits are not conductive to actual learning in every way.

All of this reminds me of a story that my mother told me of her youth in the late 40's to 50's, and how a lady neighbor of a strict(and still very common) denomination would bake something for my grandmother every week and come over to their house and my grandmother would read passages from the Bible to her; all of this was done because this lady's church forbade the people of the church from reading the Bible; as the church was to tell them what to believe.

Open, thoughtful discussion is harder, but it will lead to more knowledge and that is what God wanted, is it not?

 

[PetLuv]

First, id like to say that you in fact have a valid point. The quick answer to your question is that it is due to human pride ... something that each one of us suffers with to varying degrees . It is important to bear in mind that some genuine Christians have come from hurtful backgrounds where the last thing to be dealt with are less than desirable emotions that still raise their head on occasion and/or they are still in the ongoing process of being disciplined and sanctified by God. As a Christian, i used to be consumed with fighting opposition from non Christians in particular ... but now I have a greater patience and appreciation because at one time in my life i was just like them not understanding fully about spiritual things .

Another issue is, not all people handle threatening situations to their Faith, in mature and kind ways ; instead , striking back seems more plausible and justifiable .

So in conclusion, its important to remember that genuine Christians are saved from their many sins and are on the road to ongoing chipping away of the rough edges by God himself ..and that they havent arrived yet. And only as time elapses staying close to Christ, will the Christian become more like Christ himself ... but with some its a slower process than with others.

Does that explain it somewhat ???

It does, and in truth it touches on something that is my failing.
I am more left-brained and as such I don't see everything that might be viewed as an insult but I do see the "striking out" as you called it.

Religion seems to be on a more emotional level for most people and that will be something I need to keep in mind; as for me a question is simply a question but when emotions are so involved a question can be viewed as questioning.

Thank you.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

It does, and in truth it touches on something that is my failing.
I am more left-brained and as such I don't see everything that might be viewed as an insult but I do see the "striking out" as you called it.

Religion seems to be on a more emotional level for most people and that will be something I need to keep in mind; as for me a question is simply a question but when emotions are so involved a question can be viewed as questioning.

Thank you.

The only thing id like to point out is that there is a big difference between religion and a personal relationship with Christ the Creator ; with 'religion'....its more of a mechanical dutiful obligation to perform rituals , works, deeds, and piety....whereas in a real personal dynamic relationship with Christ, it is a very very heartfelt daily expression from deep recesses of our Soul including great thankfulness and gratitude based on what HE DID on the cross ...and not what WE can contribute thru the practice of religiousity .

What few people understand is that, for the genuine Christ Follower ...when he/she sees ugliness rearing its head from the old person they used to be, it grieves them and they feel convicted . This is a good barometer because it helps us to strive (with Gods grace) to be more Christlike thereby pleasing God . The bottom line is , we are not made perfect from choosing to make Christ our King ... that is a process which finally gets achieved once we walk thru the gates of Heaven.

I trust that you will choose to make Christ your personal Lord, King, and Saviour so you can have the total assurance that your accumulated sins are dealth with , fully, by what Jesus did for you. Then, watch your Soul start to take on a drastic transformation by the very real power of God as a deposit for making it to heaven where you will be with Him forever. Regards. Dave

 

[bling]

It is a good question, but you might want to look at the differences between the Christians in the underground church in China and the people calling themselves Christians in the Western countries. In the West we have not been under severe persecution for our faith, so hypocrites can easily be a part of the “Christian” Group without it costing them anything (especially without risking their lives). There are social and even economic benefits to being a “Christian” in the West and really there is not counting of the cost needed.

 

[aiki]

As a Christian, I believe we should all be as honest as we can. PetLuv, I don't think Jesus displayed this kind of arrogance and manipulation, regardless of Aiki's manipulation of scripture.

Um, I didn't say anything about Jesus showing arrogance and manipulation. I said that despite his great humility the Pharisees still resented Jesus and railed against the divine authority with which he spoke. This isn't a "manipulation" of Scripture in the slightest. The Gospels are full of Christ's interactions with the Pharisees, which are very much as I described them.

Not all Christians are like this. it's a very small part of Christianity, that seem to have a very big hold over general Christianity because of their money and ability to advertise in the western world. I call it American Christianity but it is more known as Fundamental Christianity...A very new and extreme form of Christianity, no older than the 20th century.

Ah, labels. What would some Christians do without labels? What does "fundamental Christianity" mean, exactly? It seems to be a label that is remarkably flexible. If we let Stones define what it means, it refers to those who are American, and wealthy, and have some advertising power. It is also "new" and "extreme" (whatever that means). It is clear that Stones thinks this kind of Christianity is bad, but I'm not sure why and he doesn't explain why.

Anyway, it seems that the agenda in this thread is simply to criticize Christians and if one is not willing to join in one must be the very sort of person the thread is intended to criticize. I find this "agree or be condemned" sort of thinking just as offensive as the arrogant stuff people are wanting to go on about in this thread. Rather ironic, actually.

Selah.

 

[Eric Hibbert]

In my 8 months of attending church fairly regularly and in my time lurking around here this is something I have noticed to be very common amongst many Christians. A large number of people I know(most of whom are not Christians) have made mention of this trait as well: this overwhelming self-righteousness and arrogance that just flows out of so many Christians that belittles and smacks everyone around them in the face.

Now my question is what is behind that?
It does not seem like it is all Christians who do this, but it is very common; more common, IMO, than arrogance in non-christians. So what leads such a large number of so called religious people to behave this way?

I do like the idea of having faith; but I really don't think I want it if it is going to result in me being this way..

Two questions:

First, how are you defining "arrogance" and "self-righteous"?

Second, do you mean to tell us that you really don't see the irony of putting people down for allegedly being "arrogant" and "self righteous" but then saying that you would give up your faith in Christ before you would be like the people you're condemning?

Have you ever read Luke 18:9-14? If you haven't, you should. I think you would find it instructive.

 

[ViaCrucis]

In my 8 months of attending church fairly regularly and in my time lurking around here this is something I have noticed to be very common amongst many Christians. A large number of people I know(most of whom are not Christians) have made mention of this trait as well: this overwhelming self-righteousness and arrogance that just flows out of so many Christians that belittles and smacks everyone around them in the face.

Now my question is what is behind that?
It does not seem like it is all Christians who do this, but it is very common; more common, IMO, than arrogance in non-christians. So what leads such a large number of so called religious people to behave this way?

I do like the idea of having faith; but I really don't think I want it if it is going to result in me being this way..

Without humility, the religious person can easily descend into self-righteousness; mistaking holiness with pride and vainglory.

Christians, very often time, have a proclivity to forget who and what we are, and what we once were. Rather than perceiving our sin for what it is, we seek to justify ourselves and project sin onto others. Ignoring the logs in our own eyes, and obsessing over any perceived speck in the eye of our neighbor.

Repentance sometimes feels like it's a lost art.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Stones]

Um, I didn't say anything about Jesus showing arrogance and manipulation. I said that despite his great humility the Pharisees still resented Jesus and railed against the divine authority with which he spoke. This isn't a "manipulation" of Scripture in the slightest. The Gospels are full of Christ's interactions with the Pharisees, which are very much as I described them.

Why is your scriptural analysis relevant to this discussion or PetLuv comments? Why use scripture at all? and why is it relevant to use scripture?


IMO, any time a Christian uses the scriptures to support their argument, unless it is directly relevant to the argument, it is manipulating scripture . Anyone can make the scriptures say whatever they want them to say. When you do this with a non believer, all you are do is baffle them with Bull...


I have heard Non Believers argue that it was Jesus that was conceited and arrogantly claiming he was someone and something he wasn't. The way he had contempt towards the Pharisees and Sadducees and the religious leaders, going into their temple turning tables and ranting about them being of their father the devil. The very reason he was executed. So, as you can see, we can make the scriptures say whatever we want. A non believer could take the opposite position to you and argue the opposite, almost in all cases....

Ah, labels. What would some Christians do without labels? What does "fundamental Christianity" mean, exactly? It seems to be a label that is remarkably flexible. If we let Stones define what it means, it refers to those who are American, and wealthy, and have some advertising power. It is also "new" and "extreme" (whatever that means). It is clear that Stones thinks this kind of Christianity is bad, but I'm not sure why and he doesn't explain why.

We all know what fundamental Christianity is. Only in America do Christians demand Creationism be taught next to evolution in science class, lol. I think we all know what Fundi's are...I didn't say it refers to those who are American, What I said is that it is an American form of Christianity that is quit new on the Christian scene, in the 2000yr scheme of things. With the money and advertising it has spread thru the western world. I was not saying only Americans are Fundi's. I'm saying that Fundi's are a result of American Christianity. The most extreme form of Christianity in our world today and yes, very damaging to the true gospel of Jesus Christ, IMO...

Anyway, it seems that the agenda in this thread is simply to criticize Christians and if one is not willing to join in one must be the very sort of person the thread is intended to criticize. I find this "agree or be condemned" sort of thinking just as offensive as the arrogant stuff people are wanting to go on about in this thread. Rather ironic, actually.

My contribution in this thread was a direct result of my own recent experience that is exactly what PetLuv was claiming. I had to contribute because it is so relevant to me, and I am Christian. So, in actual fact, it is Christian criticizing Christian.

You using scripture to support any case you had in this context was unnecessary. You used the scriptures to tell PetLuv that it is ok for Christians to be rude and arrogant because in actual fact, it is the non believer that is blind or jealous of Christian righteousness...sorry, but I found that a drastic manipulation of scripture to support a self-righteous position...

Shalom

 

[aiki]

Why is your scriptural analysis relevant to this discussion or PetLuv comments? Why use scripture at all? and why is it relevant to use scripture?

You know, I haven't actually given any specific verses and and analysis of them. I was speaking generally of the dynamic between Christ and the Pharisees. I thought doing so was useful since my experience and that of other believers I know parallels what Christ endured quite closely. That this is so is very Scriptural:

John 15:20
20 Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you...

IMO, any time a Christian uses the scriptures to support their argument, unless it is directly relevant to the argument, it is manipulating scripture . Anyone can make the scriptures say whatever they want them to say. When you do this with a non believer, all you are do is baffle them with Bull

Well, you are, of course, entitled to your opinion. I'm afraid, though, that you are quite mistaken that using Scripture in an irrelevant way is the same as manipulating Scripture. Irrelevance and manipulation are two different things. One may apply Scripture irrelevantly to a situation without manipulating it at all.

I have heard Non Believers argue that it was Jesus that was conceited and arrogantly claiming he was someone and something he wasn't. The way he had contempt towards the Pharisees and Sadducees and the religious leaders, going into their temple turning tables and ranting about them being of their father the devil. The very reason he was executed. So, as you can see, we can make the scriptures say whatever we want. A non believer could take the opposite position to you and argue the opposite, almost in all cases....

What you write here makes my case for me. Non-believers did and do accuse Jesus of being arrogant when in actuality nothing could be farther from the truth. This is what I've said in past posts and what you now confirm here.

Non-believers may attempt to assert what they like. Making an assertion, however, does not mean one has proved it. And just because there may be some debate over a particular point of Scripture does not mean one must never use it any more than a debate over the merits of food means one should never eat.

We all know what fundamental Christianity is. Only in America do Christians demand Creationism be taught next to evolution in science class, lol.

So? This doesn't strike me as particularly amusing...

I think we all know what Fundi's are...I didn't say it refers to those who are American,

Actually, you did:

"I call it American Christianity but it is more known as Fundamental Christianity..."

What I said is that it is an American form of Christianity that is quit new on the Christian scene, in the 2000yr scheme of things.

Fundamentalists would argue that it is as old as the first believers. Regardless, the mere newness of a thing does not negate its value or validity.

I'm saying that Fundi's are a result of American Christianity. The most extreme form of Christianity in our world today and yes, very damaging to the true gospel of Jesus Christ, IMO...

Again, you haven't clearly outlined, except in the most general and vague terms, what fundamentalist Christianity is. You certainly haven't explained why it is "the most extreme form of Christianity" and "damaging to the true gospel of Jesus Christ." You seem to want to smear "fundies" without having to give good reason for doing so. Interesting...

My contribution in this thread was a direct result of my own recent experience that is exactly what PetLuv was claiming. I had to contribute because it is so relevant to me, and I am Christian. So, in actual fact, it is Christian criticizing Christian.

I didn't say otherwise. All I said was that the purpose of the thread seemed to be to criticize Christians and to refuse any objection to that criticism. This sort of myopic criticism seems unfair and unwarranted. It doesn't matter that it is a Christian who may offer the criticism.

You using scripture to support any case you had in this context was unnecessary.

Well, you're free to express your point of view - as am I.

You used the scriptures to tell PetLuv that it is ok for Christians to be rude and arrogant because in actual fact, it is the non believer that is blind or jealous of Christian righteousness...

No, I said no such thing. What I really said is that it is possible that the non-believer may misjudge the attitude of the believer just as Christ was often misjudged by the Pharisees. I did not say that it is okay for Christians to be rude and arrogant. This is a conclusion you have arrived at erroneously and entirely on your own.

sorry, but I found that a drastic manipulation of scripture to support a self-righteous position...

And it is not a position I have put forward.

Shalom

Uh huh.

Selah.

 

[Stones]

Aiki, Generally I see what you are saying. To avoid breaking this post up too much I will just address what is relevant to make this discussion more concise.

When you used the gospel as a parallel to show petluv’s how you saw it. I couldn’t help feeling that you were using the gospel to insinuate that the arrogance was hers. That’s how I saw it. That offended me, both for petluv and for the sake of the gospel. That caused me to respond by calling it a manipulation of scripture. If what I perceive is wrong then I apologise.

No, I said no such thing. What I really said is that it is possible that the non-believer may misjudge the attitude of the believer just as Christ was often misjudged by the Pharisees. I did not say that it is okay for Christians to be rude and arrogant. This is a conclusion you have arrived at erroneously and entirely on your own.

Fair enough, I take your word for it. It just looked to me like you used the gospel to turn petluv’s question on her head. If I’m wrong then I apologise for my comment.

As for Fundamentalist Christianity. I’m surprised you need me to provide an explanation in a thread that isn’t based on that, when we all know what a Fundi is. I do have a habit of smearing Fundi’s, sorry, haha, but I do find them amusing …

If you think Creationism should be taught in schools next to Evolution, for Science, then I would suggest you look around the world and ask yourself why it is that no other school curriculum in the world would accept this as Science. Only Muslims and Fundamentalist Christians would teach this in schools. I would suggest you then look at Galileo’s struggles due to church persecution and then tell me the same thing isn’t going on here with Evolution? When will the Church get with the program?

A fundamentalist to me is a Christian that worships the bible and follows American Pentecostal style Christianity, which was birthed in Azusa Street; in 1919 I think it was? Fundi’s can claim their religion is 2000yrs old but I’d have to then assume that the church has had amnesia for the past 1900 yrs . Anyways, I’ll leave any in-depth discussion on Fundamental Christianity for another more relevant thread Aiki…

Shalom