Flesh99 I trust you have had a safe and blessed holiday thus far. I strt out by giving some new thoughts and then commenting on your posts at the end.
Id like to cover 3 points with some added comments.
1. Ive had to adjust my position over the years when I was faced with truths that I was unaccustomed to. I played in bands from 1968-1980 everything from Pop to hardcore English rock. My main role was that of a guitar player. I have done my own recordings playing all the instruments. I was to not a great musician. The point Im trying to make is that I do have some musical background. I play electric bass along with a piano at church.
God saved my sorry hide in April of 1980 started writing and recording Christian light rock. I asked a conservative Baptist music minister friend of mine to listen to my recordings. He listened closely and had only one comment, Interesting, you might want to consider that beat. That was all he said! He was being gracious I took his advice and studied beats and rhythms more and found out where all the modern beats came from and they didnt originate on this continent. So, I had to adjust what I liked and believed. Later, I felt that only true old hymns and songs were of the Lord and even stayed away from most Classical music except for Handel and Bach. In other words I went to the extreme. Then I was introduced to Southern Gospel and liked some of it. But still held to the real conservative view that if it wasnt for the glory of God then it was sin (I Cor. 10:31). Then I went through a six-week music course on the principles of scriptural music. This caused me to rethink again. Some of my old convictions were re-affirmed but it also caused me to lax up on other music that I once thought was wrong.
Summary Ive had to change my likes and convictions based upon what Ive been shown. After 20 years of studying doctrine Ive had to be honest with scripture and change some things that I used to like. I may be hardheaded, proud, and stubborn, but not stupid and I try to be flexible in the hands of the Lord.
2. Regarding the idea that music only cant be all bad or have any affect one way or the other lets look at 3 passages.
1) 1 Sam 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him. Note that David played some music, Saul was refreshed and an evil spirit departed. We can conclude that here we can see that music can have a positive affect upon someone.
2) Exo. 32:1`7-31 While Moses was fellowshipping with God Israel was singing and dancing to the point that it sounded like the noise of war. Now, wont spend much time here but notice the things associated with this festival music (most likely), singing, dancing, idols, and nakedness. Would we agree that some kind of music has a bad affect or at least associated with bad things?
3) Dan 3:10 Thou, O king, hast made a decree, that every man that shall hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of music, shall fall down and worship the golden image: Here some good instruments are associated with the worship of false gods. Can we conclude that good instruments can be used to cause people to have to or want to worship false gods?
Music has affects much scientific study (from both Christian and secular) has been done regarding beats and their affects. Just study the heart rate that God gave and then study the beats of the worlds music they are opposite and the worlds simple beats affects you physically and emotionally subtle but it is definitely there and yes, dangerous to the body, soul, and spirit.
Summary music has an affect can be good or bad.
3. Christians are supposed to be different from the world. See Rom. 12:1,2; II Cor. 6:14-17; I Thess. 5:22. The whole world lieth in wickedness and we have to be careful. The wicked one is a counterfeit (II Cor. 11:14,15) and he will seek to deceive us with things we like or desire, or with things that would feel good Gen. 3:1-5. Our conversation (Phil. 3:20), our dress, and thinking should be different. Based upon the above I believe our music should be different. If a lost person drives by and hears the music in our cars then they should be able to see that it is different. Today you could hear some CCM and not tell the source for the words are hard to hear anyway. When a lost person hears the Charlie Fuller Quartet then they know it is that Christian stuff but at least they know. A principle - 2 Cor 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: 2 Cor 2:16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? We are not to be a bad testimony but we are not to be like them either. I remember an old, wise preacher say one time that the lost come to us not because we are like them but because we are not like them.
Because we like it, it feels good or even blesses us doesnt necessarily make it right.
Summary - we should be different and by being different we should draw people by our good works and love for God. (YOU already know this I am sure.)
Now Ive run my mouth about my thoughts lets look at your thoughts:
I did not mean that the message is outdated, or the words themselves. Not in the least. The message is timeless.
My misunderstanding and bad I trust you will accept my apology. I didnt think you believed it was outdated but sometimes it is hard to discern on forums.
I doubt that anyone would question my salvation. I do not lead a pious life but I do live my life for the Lord first and foremost.
Im sure you do live for the Lord but all I was saying s that those men of old would today people wouldnt but they just might.
I think you misunderstood what I said, I know that most of the hymns were not written by professional writers, but they did write the music itself in the style that was popular for hymns at the time.
Possible there was a simple style back then they were not focused on arrangements and productions like we are a lot today They were focused on the message more. I know that many today are greatly concerned about their message first and foremost. Many of the old hymns, as you know, were written with no idea of what music would be put to it that came later by other writers of music.
I will answer off the joy assertions here. Joy has a meaning that has changed through history, you are right. But joy has always been equated with happiness.
I understand but what I was trying to bring out was the inner joy that there is.
In the Psalms joy is used in concert with "a loud noise", I would take this to mean upbeat and happy.
I dont have a problem with happy but loud today often becomes distortion and not of God.
I think that solemn worship has a very important place, but so does joyful and happy praise.
Amen both should be spiritual. Rome has solemn worship need I say anymore? But solemn can include the inner joy, the inner reflecting on the God that saved your soul.
You are right about Jury Duty, it barely scratches the surface of having a bad day, but it is something that we can all relate to and the message is that our everyday troubles should be given to God and we should be thankful in them. This is right out of the book of James.
I dont panic over the above I can certainly relate for sure and dont have a problem with those types of words but now those have started to become almost the norm. But it does point out a difference between our modern writers and the old writers. Their hymns centered around the majesty of God and Christ, salvation, or the futility of their own lives which pointed them to the glories of their God. The modern writers are more man-centered and experiential centered yes, God is in there but the focus seems to be on mans thoughts and feelings and not Gods thoughts and feelings. Again, I am speaking generally I know not all fall into this category but as a whole I believe the modern writers do.
Not everyone can relate to things that happen that catastrophic or near that.
True but if they were more in tuned with the scriptures then they could relate.
We as humans distance ourselves when we hear something that happens to someone else. As an aside, when my daughter Aryanna was born she had a sepsis infection and almost died
But if I were to write a song about it fewer people would get it and relate.
Id be willing to be a spiritual mind that was in the book regularly would get it and get a blessing from it especially if the song pointed one to the true God of all Comfort!
You still haven't said why we should limit ourselves to the past,
My unclear posts reflected that I dont mean only to the past but because I believe they did such a better job then we should focus more on those writers because I believe they had a better grasp of what we are lacking in our lives today.
I do not think we should limit ourselves to the present.
I know you were a rational man. (Ha, just finding humor!)
Modern Christian music reaches out and touches lives that the old hymns could never touch.
This is tough to discuss. They have been touching lives for 300 years why all of a sudden have they become so ineffective? I believe we have quite using them or (this may be rough) the devil has one a battle in steering us away from the hymns that really worked.
Again, the old hymns are wonderful and I truly enjoy singing them, I belt them out every time I go to church and do so with abandon.
I believe you do and praise God for your joy in them.
Modern Christian music is using all of the means available to reach everyone that can be reached. If we neglect that then we are lax in our duties.
Here is my point we didnt all those modern means back then and they got more results than we are getting today. George Whitefield used to go out to the coal fields in the morning, call down the shafts, Preaching at noon! They would come out and after a few days there would be up to 5,000 listening and lives were changed - no microphones, no promotions, no nothing but the basics. Ira Sankey used to sing simple hymns before DL Moody preached and people were radically moved. Today the emphasis appears to be on presentation and visuals.
Here is where we really depart ways. I can find no scriptural evidence that any music is inherently evil.
We have briefly covered this in my first three points. Requires much more study that we cant get into here.
We have more instruments, we have discovered new chords and new ways to combine chords. A lot of modern music is not as intricate as say the traditional symphonies but the tunes for most hymns are very simple as well. We have matured musically in my opinion, but that point is one strictly of opinion and neither of us would win a debate on it.
I understand about opinions what I am saying is they got more results with less than we have with more. Principle - 2 Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
By move forward I meant move forward with the technology available to us.
Technology can be good but today it has drowned out the message and placed the emphasis on the production to the point the simple message is lost.
We have new instruments to use,
Yes, but to use them without violating sound, scriptural principles.
I did not mean to progress the church forward so that it does not reflect what God intended for the church to reflect.
I figured that I was just preaching trying to show our progress is taking us closer to the wrong end because we are not spiritual enough to handle it.
Are you tired yet? I am so I am sure you are. If you read all that you deserve a reward
I wish I had put more thought into this but I hate to keep things hanging.
Again, Ive enjoyed your chats and attitude. I was rough previously and you bore it well, which is a testament to your Christian character.
May God bless you and your walk with the Saviour!
- the old saints looked at joy a bit differently. Jesus didn't walk around skipping and dancing with a big smile on his face everywhere he went but he had joy.
