Christadelphian Beliefs about the Devil

[EchoPneuma]

Why don't you stick with the text and show me how an evil SPIRIT comes directly from God, then I can bow down to your all knowing intellect and understanding of Scripture.

You don't have to get snide. THe bible SAYS it.....if you don't want to believe it that is your business. HOW does it happen? Well, I just don't know Daneel. God doesn't say HOW it happens. I guess we just won't believe anything the bible says unless we can figure out HOW it happens huh? Are you leaning on your OWN understanding there?

But please use proper exegesis and feel free to use the entire biblical writings to show me an evil spirit come from a Holy God of whom there is no darkness. The word darkness here is:

skotia {skot-ee'-ah}

Lexicon Results for skotia (Strong's 4653)
Greek for 4653

Pronunciation Guide
skotia {skot-ee'-ah}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 7:423,1049 from 4655
Part of Speech
n f
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) darkness

2) the darkness due to want of light

3) metaph. used of ignorance of divine things, and its associated wickedness, and the resultant misery in hell

I didn't say there WAS darkness in God. There isn't. I did use proper exegesis. What is your point?

I have no problem understanding that God creates evil ( ra`).





ra` {rah}

1) bad, evil

a) bad, disagreeable, malignant

b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)

c) evil, displeasing

d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)

e) bad (of value)


f) worse than, worst (comparison)

g) sad, unhappy

h) evil (hurtful)

i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)

j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)

1) in general, of persons, of thoughts

2) deeds, actions



n m

2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity

a) evil, distress, adversity

b) evil, injury, wrong

c) evil (ethical)


But there shore ain't no evil spirits coming directly from God!



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Like I said. I DID show you with scripture. You just don't want to ACCEPT it. That is fine. God says that He CREATES evil.. It COMES FROM HIM. The bible says that an evil spirit FROM GOD came to Saul. If God CREATES evil (you agree He does) and He creates EVERYTHING (right?)...then it follows that He also created the EVIL spirit that came to Saul. It was FROM HIM. He sent it. It was doing His bidding. He created it, sent it and controlled it for His purposes.

You don't like that. Fine. Don't believe it. Interpret it away. Ignore it. Whatever. But it's there and it says what it says. I don't care if you believe it or not....I didn't write it. I just believe what it says.

 

[gort]

Echopneuma quotes:

You don't have to get snide. THe bible SAYS it.....if you don't want to believe it that is your business. HOW does it happen? Well, I just don't know Daneel. God doesn't say HOW it happens. I guess we just won't believe anything the bible says unless we can figure out HOW it happens huh? Are you leaning on your OWN understanding there?

Oh. MY my my, you have me all figured out, don't you....I'm still waiting for Scripture from you that shows G-d has an evil spirit to send out. I guess we'll just wait to hear from you on HOW it happens, and just forget the research already done a long time ago. We'll just lean on your understanding for the time being.

Like I said. I DID show you with scripture. You just don't want to ACCEPT it. That is fine. God says that He CREATES evil.. It COMES FROM HIM. The bible says that an evil spirit FROM GOD came to Saul. If God CREATES evil (you agree He does) and He creates EVERYTHING (right?)...then it follows that He also created the EVIL spirit that came to Saul. It was FROM HIM. He sent it. It was doing His bidding. He created it, sent it and controlled it for His purposes.

You have'nt shown jack squat how G-d has an evil spirit to send out. There is no darkness IN God. THere is NO evil in God. THere is NO evil spirit in God. THe text does'nt say an evil spirit was CREATED.

I know it makes you uncomfortable...so you seek to change what it says to suit your own beliefs. I think you perhaps need to change your beliefs to line up with what the bible says....and consider that you have a wrong perception of good and evil and look at it from God's perspective, and find out there is no evil spirit in Him. But instead it is by divine permission an evil spirit was allowed to harass Saul. After all, all things come FROM God, but an evil spirit sure don't.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Wow.. Isn't it safe to say that if God created everything and a spirit other than God exists that it was created by God?

If God sent an evil spirit it seems to me there are only two possibilities,

1 He had one available to send,
2: He created one just for this purpose.

Seems pretty clear to me.

 

[gort]

Seems pretty clear to me too. Is'nt is safer to say that God allowed, gave permission, by divine authority a demon/satan to wreak havoc with Saul? Rather than to intimate that the Divine has an evil spirit?

Here's some legitimate commentaries.


Adam Clark
#14-23 Saul is made a terror to himself. The Spirit of the Lord departed from him. If God and his grace do not rule us, sin and Satan will have possession of us. The devil, by the Divine permission, troubled and terrified Saul, by the corrupt humours of his body, and passions of his mind. He grew fretful, peevish, and discontented, and at times a madman. It is a pity that music, which may be serviceable to the good temper of the mind, should ever be abused, to support vanity and luxury, and made an occasion of drawing the heart from God and serious things. That is driving away the good Spirit, not the evil spirit. Music, diversions, company, or business, have for a time often been employed to quiet the wounded conscience; but nothing can effect a real cure but the blood of Christ, applied in faith, and the sanctifying Spirit sealing the pardon, by his holy comforts. All other plans to dispel religious melancholy are sure to add to distress, either in this world or the next.

http://www.godrules.net/library/henry/henry1sam16.htm

Matthew Henry
...The devil, by the divine permission, troubled and terrified Saul, by means of the corrupt humours of his body and passions of his mind...

http://www.ccel.org/h/henry/mhc2/MHC09016.HTM

John Gill

1Sa 16:14 - But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul,.... As a spirit of prophecy as at first, as a spirit of wisdom and prudence in civil government, and as a spirit of fortitude and courage, as the Targum:

and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him; the reverse of the former, which by the permission of God, and as a punishment to him for his sins, came upon him; he seemed to be a demoniac, as Josephus represents (i) him, as if possessed with the devil; by whom he was almost suffocated and strangled, as well as was distracted in his counsels, and became weak and foolish; lost all courage and greatness of mind, was timorous and fearful, and alarmed by everything, and was full of envy, suspicion, rage, and despair.

(i) Antiqu. l. 6. c. 8. sect. 2.


John Wesley

16:14 Departed - God took away that prudence, and courage, and alacrity, and other gifts wherewith be had qualified him for his public employment. From the Lord - That is, by God's permission, who delivered him up to be buffeted of Satan. Troubled - Stirred up in him unruly and tormenting passions; as envy, rage, fear, or despair. He grew fretful, and peevish, and discontented, timorous and suspicious, frequently starting and trembling.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/WesleysExplanatoryNotes/wes.cgi?book=1sa&chapter=016

 

[gort]

Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament



An evil spirit from the Lord tormented him
(1 Samuel 16:14). In no sense whatever is God the author of evil; but this verse reflects the prevailing Oriental viewpoint that `everything which happens is in harmony with God's permissive will.' In a sense, of course, this is true. One often hears the expression, The Lord has given and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord! Whatever happened to Saul, it was the will of God. It is also possible to view this verse as relating a punishment which Saul deserved and which God visited upon him.

The subject of demon possession is a vast one; and we have written many comments upon it in our N.T. series; and there are far too many unknown factors evident in human behavior today to support any intelligent denial that demon possession may still exist. One thing, however, is certain. Demonic forces may not afflict men without God's permission.

http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=1sa&chapter=16&verse=14#1Sa16_14

David Guzik

a. In 1 Samuel 16:13, the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. As the Spirit of the LORD comes upon David, a distressing spirit came to Saul, and troubled him.

b. If God is all-good, why did He send a distressing spirit upon Saul? There are two senses in which God may send something. He may send something in the active sense, or He may send something in a passive sense. Actively, God never initiates or performs evil; He is the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning (James 1:17). Passively, God may withdraw the hand of His protection, and therefore allow evil to come, without being the source of the evil itself.
c. This is indicated by what happened with Saul. First, the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul. This meant Saul lost his spiritual "protection" and covering. So, Satan was more than ready to send a distressing spirit to fill the void in Saul.

http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=1sa&chapter=16&verse=14#1Sa16_14