Christ our True God - Begotten of the Father Before All Ages

[The Liturgist]

Acts 13:33

God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. (is not Atemporal -- it is a time-centered statement)

Revelation 13:8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Slain from the foundation of the World

We accept both of those statements but not by thinking that Jesus we crucified in the book of Genesis or just before the world was made nor do we think God the Son was born one day around that time.



True - just as I agree that He is the the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Your atemporal issue is not mine. He is eternal but the language for begotten in Acts 13:3 is time-centered and a reference to the resurrection as Acts 13:3 says.

But I can freely affirm Coeternal, fully God.

Of course if you look for "originate from the Father" you will not find it in scripture.

Did I mention that some churches appear to be sola-tradition and some are sola-scriptura?

all sola-tradition churches will say of any one bible text "oh yes we affirm it" but then will add "but what does IT MEAN? We say it MEANS what our tradition dictates". In other words they claim agreement but then say "as interpreted by our tradition"

My understanding of the creed is via the Bible standard of doctrine and practice.

@BobRyan

To be clear, the Nicene Creed says that our Jesus Christ our Lord, God and Savior was Begotten of the Father before all ages. In my previous post I was concerned, and still am concerned, because you appear to possibly be denying “before all ages.” And the scripture backing that is John 1:2. The ChristianForums Statement of Faith contains a convenient list of Scriptural references in the Creed:

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

CF Statement of Faith

www.christianforums.com

By the way, rejecting the Creed is not compatible with Sola Scriptura, because the Creed, like the New Testament Canon, which was also largely the work of St. Athanasius, is a definitive universally recognized statement as to the correct interpretation of Scripture regarding the nature of God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, the nature of the Church and baptism, and Eschatology. Other scripture such as Acts 13:33 must be interpreted in a manner that does not conflict with the Creed.

 

[BobRyan]

That’s also an error as it contradicts the text of the Nicene Creed, which clearly states that the Son was begotten of the Father

Acts 13:33 "God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee." (is not Atemporal -- it is a time-centered statement)

Revelation 13:8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Slain from the foundation of the World

We accept both of those statements but not by thinking that Jesus we crucified in the book of Genesis or just before the world was made nor do we think God the Son was born one day around that time.

You have previously said you agree with the Nicene Creed

True - just as I agree that He is the the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

While it is true that the Son and the Holy Spirit are coeternal and fully God, they also originate from the Father atemporally.

Your atemporal issue is not mine. He is eternal but the language for begotten in Acts 13:3 is time-centered and a reference to the resurrection as Acts 13:3 says.

But I can freely affirm Coeternal, fully God.

Of course if you look for "originate from the Father" you will not find it in scripture.

Did I mention that some churches appear to be sola-tradition and some are sola-scriptura?

all sola-tradition churches will say of any one bible text "oh yes we affirm it" but then will add "but what does IT MEAN? We say it MEANS what our tradition dictates". In other words they claim agreement but then say "as interpreted by our tradition"

My understanding of the creed is via the Bible standard of doctrine and practice.

@BobRyan

To be clear, the Nicene Creed says that our Jesus Christ our Lord, God and Savior was Begotten of the Father before all ages.

And Acts 13:33 says "God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee."

And Isaiah 53 says the Christ "had been slain" -

4 However, it was our sicknesses that He Himself bore,
And our pains that He carried;
Yet we ourselves assumed that He had been afflicted,
Struck down by God, and humiliated.
5 But He was pierced for our offenses,
He was crushed for our wrongdoings;
The punishment for our well-being was laid upon Him,
And by His wounds we are healed.
6 All of us, like sheep, have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the wrongdoing of us all
To fall on Him.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off from the land of the living
For the wrongdoing of my people, to whom the blow was due?

In my previous post I was concerned, and still am concerned, because you appear to possibly be denying “before all ages.”

In interpret it to be consistent with Acts 13:33 -- maybe you do not.

And the scripture backing that is John 1:2. The ChristianForums Statement of Faith contains a convenient list of Scriptural references in the Creed:

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

agreed.

 

[The Liturgist]

Acts 13:33 "God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee." (is not Atemporal -- it is a time-centered statement)

Revelation 13:8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Slain from the foundation of the World

We accept both of those statements but not by thinking that Jesus we crucified in the book of Genesis or just before the world was made nor do we think God the Son was born one day around that time.



True - just as I agree that He is the the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Your atemporal issue is not mine. He is eternal but the language for begotten in Acts 13:3 is time-centered and a reference to the resurrection as Acts 13:3 says.

But I can freely affirm Coeternal, fully God.

Of course if you look for "originate from the Father" you will not find it in scripture.

Did I mention that some churches appear to be sola-tradition and some are sola-scriptura?

all sola-tradition churches will say of any one bible text "oh yes we affirm it" but then will add "but what does IT MEAN? We say it MEANS what our tradition dictates". In other words they claim agreement but then say "as interpreted by our tradition"

My understanding of the creed is via the Bible standard of doctrine and practice.

And Acts 13:33 says "God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee."

And Isaiah 53 says the Christ "had been slain" -

4 However, it was our sicknesses that He Himself bore,
And our pains that He carried;
Yet we ourselves assumed that He had been afflicted,
Struck down by God, and humiliated.
5 But He was pierced for our offenses,
He was crushed for our wrongdoings;
The punishment for our well-being was laid upon Him,
And by His wounds we are healed.
6 All of us, like sheep, have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the wrongdoing of us all
To fall on Him.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off from the land of the living
For the wrongdoing of my people, to whom the blow was due?

In interpret it to be consistent with Acts 13:33 -- maybe you do not.

agreed.

So to be clear, you believe Jesus Christ begotten of the Father before all ages? That’s all I care about in the context of this discussion. Not my remarks on atemporality or anything else.

 

[concretecamper]

By the way, rejecting the Creed is not compatible with Sola Scriptura

The backbone of Sola Scriptura is personal interpretation. MY interpretation of, or the interpretation I agree with, is paramount. That way I can believe what I want to and still claim to follow Scripture and call myself Christian.

Therefore, I can interpret the Nicene Creed in the same manner.

 

[trophy33]

The backbone of Sola Scriptura is personal interpretation. MY interpretation of, or the interpretation I agree with, is paramount. That way I can believe what I want to and still claim to follow Scripture and call myself Christian.

Therefore, I can interpret the Nicene Creed in the same manner.

Not exactly. In its proper historical context, the Sola Scriptura was a tool against adding to Scriptures.

It was not meant in the manner "every individual can believe what they want". There were still authoritative offices in the protestant churches that provided explanations of Scriptures, like creeds, commentaries and catechisms.

 

[The Liturgist]

Not exactly. In its proper historical context, the Sola Scriptura was a tool against adding to Scriptures.

It was not meant in the manner "every individual can believe what they want". There were still authoritative offices in the protestant churches that provided explanations of Scriptures, like creeds, commentaries and catechisms.

One which was weakened however by the fact that except for the Anglican church, the Magisterial Protestant churches tended to have open canons.

 

[trophy33]

One which was weakened however by the fact that except for the Anglican church, the Magisterial Protestant churches tended to have open canons.

Not weakened, strict canon is a later addition to Christianity.

Most protestants accepted for example apocrypha as Scriptures, but some did not. However, Scriptures, canons and Bible prints are different things.

 

[concretecamper]

Not exactly. In its proper historical context, the Sola Scriptura was a tool against adding to Scriptures.

It was not meant in the manner "every individual can believe what they want". There were still authoritative offices in the protestant churches that provided explanations of Scriptures, like creeds, commentaries and catechisms.

I agree with your explanation. However, what I described is exactly how SS is/was applied.

 

[trophy33]

However, what I described is exactly how SS is/was applied.

I think you do not mean Sola Scriptura, because it means something else than interpretation.

I agree that the explanatory authority of church is quite diminished today. Information is available freely to anyone who invests his time to study, so the difference between "clergy" and common Christians disappeared. Common Christians who are interested in some specific theological topic know frequently more than somebody who is in an official position in a church.

But its not limited to church only, patients frequently know more about their problem than their doctors, students know more about some topic they are interested in than their teachers, children understand some aspects of life, like technology, more than their parents etc.

 

[concretecamper]

I think you do not mean Sola Scriptura,

Yes I do