Christ on every page of the OT.

[brinny]

So I've watched a number of Dr. Chuck Missler's sermons, and one of the things he loves saying over and over again is the Title of this thread: Christ is on every page of the OT.

He's also fond of saying that if there's something you don't understand, that you should praise God because you're about to discover something new, and that you should try putting Christ in the center of it and the answer is usually revealed.

Ever since he's said that, every time I read from the Old Testament, in the back of my mind, I ask myself...

"Where is Christ in this?"

On each story I read of the Old Testament... and you know what? I've yet to run into a single story of the OT that did not have something to do with Christ in some way, some shape, some form, or some manner. And even if there were a chapter that didn't, the next chapter (which is usually a continuation), will.

Starting with Genesis 1:1 all the way to the prophets, you will find either an allusion to Christ, a prediction of Christ, a type of Christ, or some detail having to do with Christ. Either that, or you'll find endtimes prophecy (the prophets were littered with these).

If you come to a story or part that you can't find Christ... oh, He's there... you're probably not looking at right, or it might be buried rather deeply (such as David's genealogy being buried in the Hebrew Text in Genesis 38).

So my challenge to you... if you find a section of the OT where you cannot see Christ at all, post it here and I bet there's some way we can link it to Christ.

What a precious post. Thank you for sharing this!

Your post reminds me of this verse:

"Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not." ~Jeremiah 33:3

As we "seek" for our Christ in every nook and cranny of the Old Testament we are gloriously blessed, and God WILL reveal to us things we never noticed or knew before...it's as if in the seeking, we are digging for "hidden treasures"...

and God ensures that we find them.

God is gonna bless yer socks off brother. What a delightful thread.

 

[Hoghead1]

I don't agree at all. I see no need for God to "engineer" anything in that manner. There is absolutely in Scripture that states this. Why should God have the same event twice? I view God as continually creative, pushing toward new thing,so I don't think the past is but a foggy image of the future. However, my main objection is that of the Reformers: This allegorical approach corrupts Scripture into but a nose of wax that can be twisted however you want. In the case of Abraham, the Bible makes it plain that the moral of the story is that we must put God first, period. It is not intended to be a description anything in the NT. Calvin stressed that Scripture speaks plainly and not in some convoluted way, as you have it, so that the passage require3s some sort of interpreter to make clear. Hence, your view is way out of step with the basic principles of the Protestant Reformation

 

[Xalith]

@Hoghead1 : Still no mention of that video I posted in this thread? The evidence is staring us right in the face that God does in fact hide things under the text.

Or do you think it is simply an accident that it happened that way?

 

[Hoghead1]

I don't feel the need to watch some movie. I doubt it could tell me anything I don't already know. Maybe I should make a film. Its basic point would be that your allegorical approach gives all sorts of arbitrary hidden meanings in biblica stories. The Protestant Reformation wisely rejected it and emphasized God speaks plainly, not in riddles which have secret meanings.

 

[brinny]

My brother, you've hit on something here that is infinitely precious:

more on "layers" and/or "digging" for hidden treasures in His Word:

"My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;

2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;

3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;

4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;" ~Proverbs 2:1-4

 

[Soyeong]

John 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

Romans 10:4 Christ is the goal of the Law, which leads to righteousness for all who have faith in God.

Indeed, the OT is full of pictures or shadows that teach about Messiah, especially with the Temple imagery, and if you read the Torah and don't see Messiah, then you are missing its goal. If you are interested in learning about finding Messiah in the Torah from a Messianic Jewish perspective, then I highly recommend this sermon series (I think it's about 120 sermons):

http://rabbiyeshua.com/kehilat-store/2014-12-29-14-46-22/product/35-complete-messiah-in-the-torah

Here's a lesson on the Binding of Isaac:

Genesis 12:1-3 The LORD had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.
2 “I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.[a]
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”

This is a Messianic promise because the Messiah will come from the seed of Abraham, plus the giving of the Torah came through the children of Abraham. We get a lot of pictures of the Messiah in the life of Abraham:

Genesis 15:1-11 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.” 2 But Abram said, “O Lord GOD, what will you give me, for I continue[a] childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.” 4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.” 5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 And he believed theLORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

7 And he said to him, “I am the LORD who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess.” 8 But he said, “O Lord GOD, how am I to know that I shall possess it?” 9 He said to him, “Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” 10 And he brought him all these, cut them in half, and laid each half over against the other. But he did not cut the birds in half. 11 And when birds of prey came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.

God promised Abraham an heir and an inheritance of land, which was also important to Abraham because at this time he was a nomad with no land of his own who had left the land of his fathers. Abraham believed God and God made a covenant with him. Covenants involved taking sacrifices and cutting them in two lengthwise. They placed one half on each side with the two parties that would be making the covenant standing between the halves in the blood of the animals. They would recount who they are, what they own, and what their history is, and then they would begin make promises to one another about what they would do. What they were saying by standing between the two halves was that if they break this covenant, then may they end up halves like the animals.

Jeremiah 34:18 And the men who transgressed my covenant and did not keep the terms of the covenant that they made before me, I will make them like[a] the calf that they cut in two and passed between its parts—

So we have a life and death covenant here and we know that God won’t break it, but we don’t know about Abraham. However, God did something very interesting here:

Genesis 12:12-20 As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell on Abram. And behold, dreadful and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then the LORD said to Abram, “Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, andthey will be afflicted for four hundred years. 14 But I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age. 16 And they shall come back here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

17 When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces. 18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give[c] this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, 19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.”

This is an unconditional covenant given to Abraham where he has to do nothing to receive these promises. He fell into a sleep, so he didn’t actually stand between the animals and didn’t make any promises. This is a major Messianic promise. Because of the sin in Abraham’s life, if he had been standing there, then he likely would have ended up halved, but God offered a substitute. A smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between the halves instead of Abraham. The word used for torch is “lappid” which is the same word used here:

Isaiah 62:1-2 62 For Zion's sake I will not keep silent,
and for Jerusalem's sake I will not be quiet,
until her righteousness goes forth as brightness,
and her salvation as a burning torch.
2 The nations shall see your righteousness,
and all the kings your glory,

Jesus’ name means “salvation” in Hebrew. Jesus passed through the halves for Abraham and all of us that make him Lord of our lives.

Genesis 22:1-2 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. 2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

There are three mountains in the land of Moriah: Mount Zion, Mount Moriah, and the Mount of Olives. Tradition says that Abraham went to Mount Moriah, which is the same place where Jesus’ life was ended. The Kingdom of Heaven in Hebrew is “malkut shamayim” which is used synonymously with the Kingdom of God. The first letter of “shamayim” is “shin” which is also the first letter used in the word “El Shaddai” (God Almighty), so “shin” is symbolic for God’s name. The Israelites were given an instruction in Deuteronomy 6:9 to write the word on the doorpost and on their gates, so they accomplished that by making a mezuzah, which has the appropriate scriptures on it and a shin.

Deut 12:11 Then to the place the Lord your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name—there you are to bring everything I command you: your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, and all the choice possessions you have vowed to the Lord.

Deut 12:21 If the place where the Lord your God chooses to put his Name is too far away from you, you may slaughter animals from the herds and flocks the Lord has given you, as I commanded you, and in your own towns you may eat as much of them as you want.

Deuteronomy 16:9 And you shall offer the Passover sacrifice to the LORD your God, from the flock or the herd, at the place that the LORD will choose, to make his name dwell there.

The land of Moriah was the place God chose for his name to dwell, pictured here:

http://promisedlandministries.wordp...ws-of-the-messiah-where-gods-name-is-written/

Mount Moriah is Jewish tradition will be known has HaMakom (The Place). The Place is the rock on which the Ark of the Covenant sat in the Holy of Holies. It’s the foundation stone of the temple, Adam was created there, Isaac will be offered there, and it is the rock where Jacob was said to have rested his head, where he had a dream of a ladder reaching to the heavens.

Isaac was to be offered as burnt offering, which means to rise up, which is totally consumed in the fire to symbolize your total commitment to God. Burnt offerings had to be freely and joyfully given or it was just burnt meat and would not be accepted by God. So Abraham to offer his son freely and cheerfully, which is hard to imagine, but it is the place where we all need to get to. No matter what God asks of you, it is the very best thing for you.

Genesis 22:3 So Abraham rose early in the morning, saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and his son Isaac. And he cut the wood for the burnt offering and arose and went to the place of which God had told him.

Abraham didn’t have to cut the wood himself, saddle his own donkey, or get up early, but he had an attitude of obedience.

 

[Soyeong]

Midrash:
“And Abraham rebuked Satan again, and Satan went from them, and, seeing he could not prevail over them, he transformed himself into a large brook of water in the road, and when Abraham, Isaac, and the two young men reached that place, they saw a brook large and powerful as the mighty waters. And they entered the brook, trying to pass it, but the further they went, the deeper the brook, so that the water reached up to their necks, and they were all terrified on account of the water. But Abraham recognized the place, and he knew that there had been no water there before, and he said to his son: “I know this place, on which there was no brook nor water. Now, surely, it is Satan who doth all this to us, to draw us aside this day from the commands of God.” And Abraham rebuked Satan, saying unto him: “The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. Begone from us, for we go by the command of God.” And Satan was terrified at the voice of Abraham, and he went away from them, and the place became dry land again as it was at first. And Abraham went with Isaac toward the place that God had told him.”

The Midrash is parallel to this:

Matthew 16:21-23 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. 22 And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from you, Lord![e] This shall never happen to you.” 23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance[f] to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”

Jesus was just a short distance from the mountain, so to speak, a short time before the appointment, which is why he has to explain to his disciples that he has to suffer and die. Peter speaks of stopping Jesus, so he becomes like the river in the parable, trying to keep him from the task that God has given him to do. Jesus tells Peter that his attitude was not on the things of God, not that he was demon possessed.

Genesis 22:4-5 On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw the place from afar. 5 Then Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; I and the boy[a] will go over there and worship and come again to you.”

Abraham has great faith because God had told Abraham to take Isaac and offer him as a burnt offering, which is totally consumed on the fire, yet he tells his servants that he and the boy will return to them. Even though he was told that, he was also told that a son coming from his body would be his heir:

Genesis 22:12 But God said to Abraham, “Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your offspring be named.

Abraham believed that if he offered Isaac, then God would resurrect him. The first century believers saw this passage as having to do with resurrection. Abraham believed God above everything else he knew to be true in life. That’s the definition of what it means to be believer. All believers are going to be part of the Kingdom of Heaven when all is said and done, but when the Apostle Paul said “believe in your heart” this is what he meant by “believe”. To believe God over your own eyes, your own ears, and particularly your own understanding. We are the children of Abraham through faith:

Romans 4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

We’re the children of Abraham, but maybe what we should ask ourselves is: are of the faith of Abraham? When God asks us to do hard things, do we run to do what God commanded as he did? Do we put God above everything else in life as Abraham did in faith?

Genesis 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son. And he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So they went both of them together.

Is the wood being placed on Isaac reminiscent of anything? Do we know of anyone else who had to carry wood for his sacrifice?

Midrash:
Isaac still was not aware of the true purpose of the journey, and Abraham did not want to tell him openly. He therefore placed the wood on Isaac's shoulders to hint at his fate.

This was very much like the old Roman custom of making someone condemned to crucifixion carry his own cross. This is a vivid picture of the Messiah. Isaac on Mount Moriah, the same place that Jesus will be slain and here we see Isaac carrying the wood for his sacrifice, just as Jesus carried the wood for his death. Jesus has the indwelling presence of God within him, the power of God upon him, which descended like a dove after he came up out of the waters after being immersed in the Jordan. He was one with the purposes of the Father and he always did the will of the Father. So just as Abraham went up together with Isaac that day, the Father was with Jesus.

Genesis 22:7-8 And Isaac said to his father Abraham, “My father!” And he said, “Here I am, my son.” He said, “Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?”8 Abraham said, “God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” So they went both of them together.

Again we see Abraham great faith here and we can this echoed in the book of Hebrews:

Hebrews 11:17-19 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back.

Jewish people in the first century saw this as Isaac being resurrected. Both Isaac, who was spared, and the ram, which was offered in his place, were seen as resurrected and both are pictures of the Messiah.

Genesis 22:9 When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built the altar there and laid the wood in order and bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood.

There’s no doubt that Abraham had great faith, but so did Isaac. Isaac was not a little boy because the same was that was used to describe him was the same word used by Moses to refer to Joshua when he was in his 40’s.

Midrash:
"When Abraham wished to sacrifice his son Isaac, he (Isaac) said to him, 'Father, I am a young man and am afraid that my body may tremble through fear of the knife and I will grieve thee, whereby the slaughter may be rendered unfit, and this will not count as a real sacrifice; Therefore, bind me very firmly'. Forthwith, "HE BOUND ISAAC"

Jewish tradition holds that Isaac was 37, so Abraham was 137. Can someone who is 137 bind someone who is 37 without their consent? Isaac had great faith that no matter what happened, just as his father had told him, that God would provide the sacrifice. The rabbis went a little father:

R. Judah says: When the sword touched Isaac's throat his soul flew clean out of him. And when He let his voice be heard from between the two cherubim, 'Lay not thy hand upon the lad, 'the lad's soul returned to his body. Then his father unbound him, and Isaac rose, knowing that in this way the dead would come back to life in the future; whereupon he began to recite, Blessed art Thou, O Lord, who quickens the dead.
Pirkei de-Rav Eliezer 31

By virtue of Isaac who offered himself as a sacrifice on top of the altar, the Holy One blessed be He, will resurrect the dead in the future, as it is said, "To hear the groaning of him who is bound; to open up release for the offspring appointed to death." (Psalm 102:21) "Him who is bound" is interpreted as Isaac bound on top of the altar. "To open up release for the offspring appointed to death" [is interpreted] as the dead whose graves the Holy One, blessed be He, will open up so that He may set them on their feet in the Age to Come. (Mekilta Simeon)

 

[Soyeong]

Genesis 22:10-13a Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son.11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12 He said, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns.

The Hebrew word for “behind” is “akhar” which has kind of a double meaning. When it is used in relation to space, it means “in the distance”. He beheld in the distance a ram caught in the thicket. But when it’s used in relationship to time, it means “in the future”. On Jewish tradition holds that thicket was seen as the sins of Israel:

"And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him (ahar) a ram. What does ahar mean? Said Rabbi Judan: 'After all that happened, Israel still fall into the clutches of sin and [in consequence] become the victims of persecution; yet they will be ultimately redeemed by the ram's horn, as it says, And the Lord God will blow the horn.(Zecharia 9:14)." Rabbi Judah ben Rabbi Simon interpreted: 'At the end of [after] all generations Israel will fall into the clutches of sin and be the victims of persecution; yet eventually they will be redeemed by the ram's horn,

So the thicket was seen as the sins of Israel. We can see the parallel that the ram’s head is caught in thicket for the sins of the world just as a crown of thorns was placed on Jesus as he was led away to pay the price for the sins of the world.

In the distance Abraham sees a ram caught in the thicket, but God also gave him a vision of the future of the Messiah caught in the thorn branches.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”

Genesis 22:13b And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son.

Midrash:
He (Abraham) prayed to Him, "Sovereign of the Universe! Look upon the blood of this ram as though it were the blood of my son Isaac". When a man declares: This animal be instead of this one, in exchange for that, or a substitute for this, it is a valid exchange

It sounds like a salvation message.

Genesis 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

What’s going to be seen in that place? Jerusalem is going to be seen there. The temple is going to be seen there. The offering for the redemption and resurrection of Isaac is going to be seen there. Jesus was the burnt offering who was totally given over to God and rose up to heaven.

At this point, Isaac disappears from the picture. It was as though he was slain up there and left behind.

Genesis 22:19 So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beersheba. And Abraham lived at Beersheba.

Abraham returned, but Isaac didn’t. So where’s Isaac? The rabbis had a couple of answers:

And Isaac, Where was he? The Holy One, blessed be He, brought him into the Garden of Eden, and there he stayed three years . (Midrash Hagadol)

After the sacrifice on Mount Moriah, Abraham returned to Beer-Sheba, the scene of so many of his joys. Isaac was carried to Paradise by angels, and there he sojourned for three years. Thus Abraham returned home alone. (Ginzberg)

Isaac disappears from the text until we see him coming for his bride.

Genesis 24:62-65 Now Isaac had returned from Beer-lahai-roi and was dwelling in the Negeb. 63 And Isaac went out to meditate in the field toward evening. And he lifted up his eyes and saw, and behold, there were camels coming. 64 And Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and when she saw Isaac, she dismounted from the camel 65 and said to the servant, “Who is that man, walking in the field to meet us?” The servant said, “It is my master.” So she took her veil and covered herself.

It might be better translated that she fell off her camel. Here’s what the rabbis said:

"And Isaac came from the way of Beer-le-hai-roi . . . And Isaac went out . . ." From where did he go out? From Paradise. No wonder Rebekah lost her equilibrium as it says "and she fell from the camel" -for what she perceived was Isaac coming down from Paradise . . ." (Minchat Yehudah)

So much for the Jewish reading of the story. At least in the version of the Akeidah presented by this collection of parables, the Jewish reading sounds more Christian than the Christian reading of the story. How is that possible? Is it possible that the Torah is trying to suggest something to her people?

The next time we see Jesus is when he comes back for his bride. So we get this picture of the Messiah, the plan of God, the resurrection, the whole deal is laid out for us in the story of the offering of Isaac.

 

[Xalith]

@Soyeong : Great stuff!

Also, try counting how many ways Joseph and Jesus are alike.

 

[mikedsjr]

Joseph and his life story show it more than most. Even down to the cup bearer and the baker: bread and wine.

 

[Hoghead1]

As I sad before and will say again, I see no need to see that or any other film. I don't think they will teach me anything I don't already know. In fact, I think I should make my own film. After all, I have the credentials and experience to do so. I also have good reason to reject your allegorical approach, as it was thrown out, and rightly so, by the Reformation, because it turns Scripture into a nose of wax. I mean, I could sit here and ask why Christ-in-every-corner? There are all sorts of other meanings that could be read in. Is the Garden of Eden really talking about heaven? Perhaps, as St. Thomas Aquinas argued, that the Genesis account is really about a whole society of humans who, when expelled were given a sex drive as a punishment and who, before the fall, possessed supernatural abilities, all of which were taken away due to the fall. I mean, why not? You can easily read in anything you want. Why not a whole society with supernatural abilities? Maybe the story about Abraham and Isaac is really s story symbolizing the Flood. Abraham stands for the storm that is about to sink Isaac (the Ark). This is just as solid as your view.

 

[Hoghead1]

As I said before and will say again, this allegorical approach turns Scripture into a nose wax. It ignores the fact that Scripture itself stresses that God speaks direct and to the point, without riddles that have some strange inner, secret meanings.

 

[Soyeong]

As I sad before and will say again, I see no need to see that or any other film. I don't think they will teach me anything I don't already know. In fact, I think I should make my own film. After all, I have the credentials and experience to do so. I also have good reason to reject your allegorical approach, as it was thrown out, and rightly so, by the Reformation, because it turns Scripture into a nose of wax. I mean, I could sit here and ask why Christ-in-every-corner? There are all sorts of other meanings that could be read in. Is the Garden of Eden really talking about heaven? Perhaps, as St. Thomas Aquinas argued, that the Genesis account is really about a whole society of humans who, when expelled were given a sex drive as a punishment and who, before the fall, possessed supernatural abilities, all of which were taken away due to the fall. I mean, why not? You can easily read in anything you want. Why not a whole society with supernatural abilities? Maybe the story about Abraham and Isaac is really s story symbolizing the Flood. Abraham stands for the storm that is about to sink Isaac (the Ark). This is just as solid as your view.

John 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

Romans 10:4 Christ is the goal of the Law, which leads to righteousness for all who have faith in God.

Luke 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

Luke 24:44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

Ecclesiastes 1:9 What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

Again, you are ignoring these verses. Messiah is the goal of OT Scripture and he explained to his disciples how it was about him. If not these parallels, then what is written about him in the Law of Moses and what did have to explain? I agree that God can be direct and to the point, but God is also a teacher, and Messiah preferred to teach in parables, which were deliberately not direct nor to the point. The Bible is full of themes and types and what has been is what shall be, so there is much we can learn about Messiah and God's plan from studying them. For instance, God's Feasts are all about the Messiah, with him being the Passover lamb and the firstfruits, etc., and Paul highlights this importance in Colossians 2:17.

I don't see how a theory about the origin of our sex drive has anything to do with this or why Abraham and Isaac would symbolize the Flood. It's about Messiah, not the Flood. There's a big difference between saying that the elements in a story represent some random event and saying that Scripture is about Messiah, as the Bible states.

 

[Hoghead1]

I cannot see how the loose arrangement of verses you cite here any way, shape, or form justifies any sort of allegorical approach. The examples I brought up were intended to show you how wild and arbitrary your allegorical approach is and why the Reformers dropped it.

 

[Soyeong]

I cannot see how the loose arrangement of verses you cite here any way, shape, or form justifies any sort of allegorical approach. The examples I brought up were intended to show you how wild and arbitrary your allegorical approach is and why the Reformers dropped it.

What do you think Messiah was talking about when he said that everything must be fulfilled that was written about him in the law of Moses? Messiah is the goal of the law, so the law is about him, not any allegory that comes to mind. Letting your imagination run wild has nothing to do with my approach.

 

[Xalith]

I'd also ask @Hoghead1 why God placed a diagram of the Cross in Numbers 2, which was during the time of Moses. Or why Jesus told the Pharisees that "You follow the Law of Moses, but yet he testified of Me" (paraphrased)

But yet according to @Hoghead1 , there's absolutely no mention of Christ anywhere in the books of Moses (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy).

Oh, one more question for @Hoghead1 :

Amillennial or Futurist?

Many Denominational Churches are Amillennial. If you say the Reformation "got rid of" all of the allegorical stuff having to do with the Bible in favor of a more literal approach.... then why is the Book of Revelation the exception? The only way Amillennialism works, is if you allegorize huge chunks of Revelation and other key parts of Scripture.

 

[civilwarbuff]

But yet according to @Hoghead1 , there's absolutely no mention of Christ anywhere in the books of Moses (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy).

Exactly where did he state that? Give the post # at least....

 

[Xalith]

Exactly where did he state that? Give the post # at least....

He stated it indirectly. He says that we should always take the Bible literally, and we should not be allegorizing anything and that we should not be looking for "hidden meanings" or any of that stuff.

Well, if you do that... tell me where in the first 5 books of the Bible does it make a literal mention of Christ?

 

[civilwarbuff]

He stated it indirectly. He says that we should always take the Bible literally, and we should not be allegorizing anything and that we should not be looking for "hidden meanings" or any of that stuff.

Well, if you do that... tell me where in the first 5 books of the Bible does it make a literal mention of Christ?

What post # does he say that?

 

[Xalith]

What post # does he say that?

Oh boy, let's see...

#12:

That's why the Reformation cracked down on the allegorical approach and recognize the Bible speaks directly to us, that what the passage states right up front is what the author means.

#16:

I completely disagree with this whole approach.

#22:

I don't agree at all. I see no need for God to "engineer" anything in that manner.

#24:

The Protestant Reformation wisely rejected it and emphasized God speaks plainly, not in riddles which have secret meanings.

(this one directly conflicts with Proverbs 25:2!)

#32:

It ignores the fact that Scripture itself stresses that God speaks direct and to the point, without riddles that have some strange inner, secret meanings.

(again, ignoring Proverbs 25:2)

So basic summary of what he said in the above:

"The reformers are right. We should stop allegorizing the Bible and take it literally, God never hides stuff in the texts, He never has stuff meaning more than one thing at once, and there are no "deeper meanings"."

Then that means... Christ was never mentioned in the Books of Moses which directly conflicts with John 5:46 where Jesus specifically says that Moses wrote of Him.

Well, ok. Tell me what verse in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, or Deuteronomy that literally speaks of Christ, or even "a messiah"?

You won't find one AFAIK. The only way you find Jesus in the Torah, is to actually look for... yes... multiple meanings behind some of the verses (or use ELS in the original Hebrew, but I won't go into that here).

Or the Cross diagram in Numbers 2. etc. Which @Hoghead1 says not to do.