Christ did not pay for sins at the cross, but at the world's foundation.

[Coleton Bryce Ritmanich]

I will click and paste here a portion of a comment I made to someone else here in regards to what I mean by the word "harmony".

"There are indeed many passages in the Bible which can give the impression that Christ's death on the cross made payment for sins, but again, truth is found when we can take any doctrine we hold to be true and examined against the whole Bible for harmony. Harmony is agreement, it is how the Bible confirms to us that we are under a correct understanding regarding any doctrine we hold, it is also how God corrects us when we are in error.

1 John 5:7-9
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness (bear record) in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Because the entire Bible is the Word of God, the entire record agrees in one. This is what is referred to as harmony".

The only way to be a stumbling block here is to not encourage people to search out the scriptures to make sure these things are so. I'm not doing that. Or to try and convince people to believe me because I am telling the truth, I'm not doing that either because I can't make anyone see any truth, all I can do is present what the Bible teaches and people will either see it or not. That is God's business, not mine. Again, I'm trying to answer all of your questions but you have to narrow down your specific concern. I can't comment on chapters and chapters which you told me to do. It's just not feasible in this forum. Is there a specific verse or two within those chapters that you have a question about?

And to answer your last question, the entire Word of God is truth, this of course includes the 4 gospels. You claim that I state they lied because you are unwilling to examine the evidence I am putting forth. You are set in your ways but have not so much as answered one apparent contradiction which I have listed thus far. You are making the mistake of taking the Word of God at face value and reading it like a basic and plain book, when it's not, it is a spiritual and holy book which needs the Holy Spirit to understand properly. This is why when Christ begun to say and do things in front of the Pharisees, they accused him of having a new doctrine, when in reality, it was just lack of spiritual understanding on their part because they were never saved.

God can and does conceal truth from His Word until His timing comes to finally reveal these truths, only then can we understand them, no matter how basic and plain a statement may seem.

Luke 18:31
Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

You said "Christ did not die on the Cross for salvation" that would lead me to believe you did not read the Gospels where it literally had carrying his cross and dying for the salvation of mankind. Or what Paul wrote in the verses I assigned you to read for homework.

Or you did read them and deny them.

Which is why I asked you if you believe the entire bible.

Good day.

 

[Elixir]

I'll need lots more study before I can provide my own thoughts, but I went to research this in my bible software and have come up with some interesting material in the commentaries that seems to support your argument.


[Rev 13:8]
"
...
The book of life is connected with the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. It is as the slain Lamb that Christ brings salvation. There are the two thoughts that it is the atoning death of Christ that is significant and that the salvation he brings is no afterthought. From the creation of the world should be taken with slain (cf. 1 Pet. 1:19–20) rather than with written (as mg.; this refers it to election as Eph. 1:4). Either way God’s eternal purpose is in view and is contrasted with the fleeting might of the powers of evil.
"

Morris, L. (1987). Revelation: an introduction and commentary (Vol. 20, p. 164). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.

[Revelations] 13:8 from the foundation of the world This may refer to the time when the names were entered in the book of life—suggesting that these people can have confidence in God’s work. But the Greek phrase used here, apo katabolēs kosmou, follows and may modify tou esphagemenou (“who was slain”). In this regard, it may be translated as: “those whose name has not been written in the book of life of the Lamb, who was slaughtered from the foundation (or founding) of the world.” This translation could mean that Christ’s saving death was always part of God’s plan of salvation (compare 1 Pet 1:19–20).

Barry, J. D., Mangum, D., Brown, D. R., Heiser, M. S., Custis, M., Ritzema, E., … Bomar, D. (2012, 2016). Faithlife Study Bible (Re 13:8). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.


It seems to make more sense too when I think about it for His payment to have happened not at the cruxifixion, which was confined to time and space on this Earth, but rather for it to happen where judgment happens - in spirit. So agreed .

Just in response to the flow of the conversation, I don't endorse supporting the belief of errancy / mistakes in the scriptures and apologize for writing so generally about what I was accepting in the argument. In the spirit of truth, The Word of God as written down is of course is infallible, and I trust that God has too inspired man to discern which original texts to be compiled into the bible, and after that reasonable translations (and now, with technology and computers and unprecedented scholarship, more power than ever to refer to these original texts).

Blessings!

 

[Coleton Bryce Ritmanich]

Just in response to the flow of the conversation, I don't endorse supporting the belief of errancy / mistakes in the scriptures and apologize for writing so generally about what I was accepting in the argument. In the spirit of truth, The Word of God as written down is of course is infallible, and I trust that God has too inspired man to discern which original texts to be compiled into the bible, and after that reasonable translations (and now, with technology and computers and unprecedented scholarship, more power than ever to refer to these original texts).

Blessings!

You get it.

 

[Eddie Ramos]

You said "Christ did not die on the Cross for salvation" that would lead me to believe you did not read the Gospels where it literally had carrying his cross and dying for the salvation of mankind. Or what Paul wrote in the verses I assigned you to read for homework.

Or you did read them and deny them.

Which is why I asked you if you believe the entire bible.

Good day.

I almost feel as though you're not reading any of my replies, but you're not obligated to do so, it will though answer your questions if you chose to do so. Christ's earthly ministry was all a parable which hid truth. Yes, it all really happened, but it did so to paint a deeper spiritual picture. Most make the mistake of looking at the surface of a story rather than searching for the deeper spiritual meaning of the account. This is a mistake when dealing with parables, which the Word of God is. The proof of errancy is seen when each passage is compared to one another and agreement is not found but still ignored for the plain reading of the text. I suppose I will refrain from responding at this point unless you have a specific verse in mind, as this back and forth will only serve to lengthen the thread and veer away from the main subject of the post. Thank you for understanding.

 

[Eddie Ramos]

Just in response to the flow of the conversation, I don't endorse supporting the belief of errancy / mistakes in the scriptures and apologize for writing so generally about what I was accepting in the argument. In the spirit of truth, The Word of God as written down is of course is infallible, and I trust that God has too inspired man to discern which original texts to be compiled into the bible, and after that reasonable translations (and now, with technology and computers and unprecedented scholarship, more power than ever to refer to these original texts).

Blessings!

According to the Bible, God has taken it upon himself to preserve His Word pure from the corruption of mankind.

Psalm 12:6
The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

That being said, we have to ask what exactly God had in mind when he made that statement. The answer is His original Word which was given to mankind in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. These words had to be copied and recopied over time in their original languages in order to physically preserve God's words. To date, God has kept His original Word perfect and pure. The only problem is that most of us don't speak Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek. So, translators decided to take on the grueling task of translating the original words of God into their respective languages to give us the Bibles we have today. But upon careful search of the translations, we can see that even though the translators did their best, they still made many mistakes because when they faced a specific passage that they were not able to understand yet, they had to translate according to their understanding at that time. Leaving behind many errors that can be easily seen by any Bible student. But these mistakes can only be seen because we have the original Word to go back to and compare with. But in order to be able to do this, people also painstakingly developed many "tools" to help us with our study of the original languages. Tools like a concordance, or a literal translation of the Bible, or an interlinear. These tools are great, but they are only tools, non-inspired like the original Word of God because they too have their share of mistakes.

But with these tools, we can be able to study the Bible with great care and precision in order to come to truth. But just because all translations contain errors, doesn't make them useless. As I mentioned, the translators undertook a grueling job in doing this. So, the Bible can be read as the Word of God, but every word needs to be checked and re-checked for truth. When we do this, we find that much truth was hid through these errors. And this is really what any child of God is called to do, to search out words. Here is one example:

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

If we use our concordance, we will see that the words translated as "thing" and "matter" are the exact same Hebrew words. This Hebrew word (just like every other word in the Bible) has been assigned a number by Strong's which is #H1697. And when we look up this word in the Bible, we discover another very interesting fact, that this word is most commonly translated as "WORD". And so this helps us understand Prov 25:2 a little better. "It is the glory of God to conceal a Word, but the honour of kings is to search out a Word". Thus reinforcing the principle that God indeed hides truth within His Word.

 

[eleos1954]

There are indeed many passages in the Bible which can give the impression that Christ's death on the cross made payment for sins, but again, truth is found when we can take any doctrine we hold to be true and examined against the whole Bible for harmony. Harmony is agreement, it is how the Bible confirms to us that we are under a correct understanding regarding any doctrine we hold, it is also how God corrects us when we are in error.

1 John 5:7-9
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness (bear record) in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Because the entire Bible is the Word of God, the entire record agrees in one. This is what is referred to as harmony. Once we understand that, we can turn to any passage of the Bible and see if it agrees with any doctrine we hold to be true. You quoted Heb 10:11-12 which very accurately affirms that the earthly priests daily sacrifice never did anything to take away sins, but Christ's one sacrifice was enough to complete the requirement of the law which was death. You then quoted Col 1:20 to perhaps prove that it took place at the time of the cross because that's what it seems to plainly say. But notice the final statement you quoted in Heb 10:12. It says, "But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God".

If you take a closer look at this passage (like each original Greek word) then you will see that it says something quite interesting. You can use an interlinear which shows you a word for word translation of the original text ( I myself use Green's interlinear Bible to search out words) you will notice that it says this: "But He, offering but one sacrifice for sins sat down in perpetuity (meaning, in eternity) at the right hand of God". This agrees with the fact that the Bible declares that that's when payment for sins was made, in eternity past or from the foundation of the world. This is no twisting of the text by any means (as some suggest) but it is looking closer than the basic English (non inspired) translations in order to come to truth.

In closing, everything Christ said and did in his earthly ministry was all a parable, meaning it all really happened, but it all served to conceal a spiritual truth, which is precisely what a parable does. The cross therefore represents him that is accursed of God, which is exactly the picture (parable) Christ was portraying when he hung on it and died in order to fulfill the scriptures.

Mark 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] (the word "these" is not in the original text) ALL THINGS are done in parables:

The word "done" is Strong's #1096 and it is also translated as "come to pass". In other words, "all things come to pass in parables". Everything Christ came to do was so that the scriptures would be fulfilled, meaning that they would come to pass, and they did so, in parables.

The way you are coming across seems like to me are denying the actual shedding of the blood of Christ as being the realty of salvation being fulfilled ... that is the plan as prophesied and fulfilled on the cross.

Salvation was promised and prophesied from the beginning, but the promise and prophecy was not fulfilled until He shed His blood on the cross of which He did willingly.

Those in the OT who believed in the promise (of Messiah to come) are saved.

Everything whether in parable or prophesied otherwise was fulfilled in Christ.

There are always spiritual truths/lessons in parables but they may or may not be related to actual events or even a combination of the two.

Perhaps I am just misunderstanding where you are coming from ???

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Although the plan of salvation was set before the foundation of the world, the completion of it happened at a set time in man's history - in Israel, at 33 A.D. when Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected.

Those who were saved by faith had their faith in the Messiah to come, while those who are saved by faith in the church dispensation are saved through faith in the Messiah who died on the cross for them in 33 A.D.

It is always useful to read the whole Bible to get the full story, rather than cherry-pick bits out of it to prove a point.

 

[Eddie Ramos]

Although the plan of salvation was set before the foundation of the world, the completion of it happened at a set time in man's history - in Israel, at 33 A.D. when Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected.

Those who were saved by faith had their faith in the Messiah to come, while those who are saved by faith in the church dispensation are saved through faith in the Messiah who died on the cross for them in 33 A.D.

It is always useful to read the whole Bible to get the full story, rather than cherry-pick bits out of it to prove a point.

There is no passage that states that there was only a plan set from the foundation of the world, but there are passages that state that Christ was indeed slain from the foundation of the world and not in principle but in deed. He finished all the works necessary in order for his elect to enter into his rest.

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 4:3
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

This doesn't say that the works were finished at the cross of 33 AD but from the foundation of the world. Works is not a plan, it is works, and according to the context, it was the works necessary to enter into his rest. It was the demonstration of what had already taken place that took place in 33 AD. not the actual atonement. This is why sins could be forgiven in the Old Testament as well as before Christ went to the cross without violating the law of Hebrews .

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

There were never 2 dispensations of grace, but only one. Salvation has always been by grace through faith, but not our own faith (our own work), rather the faith (or the work) of Christ from the foundation of the world.

Gen 6:8
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

 

[Elixir]

Although the plan of salvation was set before the foundation of the world, the completion of it happened at a set time in man's history - in Israel, at 33 A.D. when Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected.

Those who were saved by faith had their faith in the Messiah to come, while those who are saved by faith in the church dispensation are saved through faith in the Messiah who died on the cross for them in 33 A.D.

Ok, thanks!

I was thinking perhaps the effect of salvation being outside of time and space would point to the payment being done outside of space and time. Certainly though, meanwhile, the effect of Jesus dying on the cross in the physical world would be there, as we have BC -> AD and the Bible (Edit: doh) and a whole host of history that would not be if His sacrifice were not then.

 

[Radagast]

Christ did not pay for sins at the cross, but at the world's foundation.

Incorrect.

One such contradiction is this:
Romans 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

There is no contradiction.

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

That is an incorrect translation. Correct translations of the Greek would be:

CSB: All those who live on the earth will worship it, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.

ESV: and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

NASB: All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

 

[Eddie Ramos]

Incorrect.



There is no contradiction.



That is an incorrect translation. Correct translations of the Greek would be:

CSB: All those who live on the earth will worship it, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.

ESV: and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

NASB: All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Thanks for your reply but other than saying "Incorrect" and "There is no contradiction", you have not given any evidence which supports your claims that can be taken to the Bible and compared for truth. Not that you have to, it would've been nice though.

Your last comment can certainly be taken to the bible for accuracy though. Here is the problem, with more and more modern translations, those doing the translating are doing so in order to make what they feel is a more faithful translation of the Bible but they are doing so with their doctrines as the foundation of their translations. I can give a few examples.

The King James version of the Bible (one of the oldest translations) frequently translates passages which speak of the faith OF Christ.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
So the above passage has indeed been properly translated based on seeking to harmonize with the whole of the scriptures. Justification never came by our own faith (works of the law) but by the faith OF Jesus Christ (his work).

Yet, because many have since developed their own doctrines of salvation (Accept, believe and confess...all works) the translators had a decision to make when they came to passages such as these. And well, they decided to "correct" the translation and substitute the faith OF Christ with faith IN Christ. And so when people read these modern translations, they read that they are justified by faith IN Christ, never realizing that this doctrine presents major contradictions within the scriptures.

Here is Galatians 2:16 according to the three translations you relied on above for accuracy.
CSB
and yet because we know that a person is not justified by the works of the law but by faith IN Jesus Christ even we ourselves have believed in Christ Jesus. This was so that we might be justified by faith IN Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.

ESV
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith IN Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith IN Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

NASB
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

All of these translations are contradicting themselves the way they all quote Galatians 2:16 the same way because faith IN Christ IS a work of the law. Likewise, the translators faced the same problem when they came across Rev 13:8. I imagine they reasoned with themselves that since they knew Christ was actually slain at the cross, then Rev 13: needed to be reworded to what you posted above. Yet all one needs to do to verify any translator of any Bible, is to look at the original text (any interlinear will do) to see how God wrote it. And in this case, the KJV translated it very faithfully, as they also did with Galatians 2:16. Christ was indeed the lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world. But this isn't an isolated verse by any means. No, God continues to affirm this passage to be very accurate, that the atonement indeed took place at the point of the worlds foundation, not at the cross.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in (or, through) Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 4:3
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 9:26
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

 

[Radagast]

Thanks for your reply but other than saying "Incorrect" and "There is no contradiction", you have not given any evidence which supports your claims that can be taken to the Bible and compared for truth.

You're denying the Creed ("and was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate"). I have no time to waste on heresy.

Here is the problem, with more and more modern translations, those doing the translating are doing so in order to make what they feel is a more faithful translation of the Bible

The ultimate basis is the Hebrew and Greek, of course. The ESV is probably the most accurate translation out there.

Hebrews 9:26
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

This verse tells us that Christ suffered once and once only:

Hebrews 9:25-26: Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Christ's earthly ministry was all a parable which hid truth.

False and Gnostic.

 

[Eddie Ramos]

You're denying the Creed ("and was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate"). I have no time to waste on heresy.



The ultimate basis is the Hebrew and Greek, of course. The ESV is probably the most accurate translation out there.



This verse tells us that Christ suffered once and once only:

Hebrews 9:25-26: Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.



False and Gnostic.

I don't care for any man made creed, only about what the Bible alone teaches. No creed is inspired by God, only the Bible is, therefore it is my only authority. And the ESV is only accurate because it agrees with what you believe not because it is actually a faithful translation. If we are looking for faithful translations, then the KJV is by far the most faithful because it agrees closer with the original text, even though it (the KJV) does contain its share of errors.

Also, you're quoting Hebrews 9:25-26 but are only focusing on verse 26 as if verse 25 is not there, but it is. If Christ was like any other high priest (which he is not) he would have had to often suffer since when? The Bible, not me says, "since the foundation of the world". This is when he suffered as our high priest when he offered himself as the lamb slain. The appearance at the cross to put away sin was a fulfillment of scripture, but is was done as a parable. Therefore, the historical act on the cross only pointed to the spiritual truth which was that Christ had already made payment for sins before the world began. The Bible states that all things Christ did, came to pass in parables. This includes the cross because it was among those things that needed to come to pass according to the scriptures.

Mark 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:

The word "these" is not in the original text and the word "done" is also translated as "come to pass". We can also understand this verse to say, "all things come to pass in parables".

Christ's ministry was indeed a parable which hid truth, because that is the purpose of a parable.

Mat 13:9
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There is no passage that states that there was only a plan set from the foundation of the world, but there are passages that state that Christ was indeed slain from the foundation of the world and not in principle but in deed. He finished all the works necessary in order for his elect to enter into his rest.

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 4:3
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

This doesn't say that the works were finished at the cross of 33 AD but from the foundation of the world. Works is not a plan, it is works, and according to the context, it was the works necessary to enter into his rest. It was the demonstration of what had already taken place that took place in 33 AD. not the actual atonement. This is why sins could be forgiven in the Old Testament as well as before Christ went to the cross without violating the law of Hebrews .

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

There were never 2 dispensations of grace, but only one. Salvation has always been by grace through faith, but not our own faith (our own work), rather the faith (or the work) of Christ from the foundation of the world.

Gen 6:8
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

The fact that Jesus said clearly just before He died on the cross, "It is finished!" puts a big donut hole in your argument. In the view of Jesus, the plan of salvation was completed in 33 A.D with his death on the cross. It was after that He gave up His spirit to the Father and died. The cross did not kill Him, but once he knew that the plan of salvation was completed, He voluntarily gave up His spirit to the Father.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Ok, thanks!

I was thinking perhaps the effect of salvation being outside of time and space would point to the payment being done outside of space and time. Certainly though, meanwhile, the effect of Jesus dying on the cross in the physical world would be there, as we have BC -> AD and the Bible (Edit: doh) and a whole host of history that would not be if His sacrifice were not then.

Yes. If it were outside of time and space, why did God bother to go through the thousands of years developing the plan until the right time? The development of God's plan of salvation, culminating in the death and resurrection of Christ, took place within time and space. It took thousands of years to bring things to the right point in time, and we see the path of that develop as we read through the Scriptures. We see the thread within all the twists and turns of history, which it seemed that God was losing control at times, but when we read closely, we see that God never lost control of the development of His plan, and we see how He arranged history to ensure that when Jesus came, it was a time of peace (Pax Romana), and that time of peace remained until the early church was fully planted and founded.

 

[Eddie Ramos]

The fact that Jesus said clearly just before He died on the cross, "It is finished!" puts a big donut hole in your argument. In the view of Jesus, the plan of salvation was completed in 33 A.D with his death on the cross. It was after that He gave up His spirit to the Father and died. The cross did not kill Him, but once he knew that the plan of salvation was completed, He voluntarily gave up His spirit to the Father.

I responded to this earlier, perhaps to someone else. But this actually creates a problem for those who hold to atonement taking place at the cross because Christ was alive when he said "it is finished", THEN he died. Moreover, the salvation plan of God not only included atonement for sins but also eternal life which was accomplished once Christ raised from the dead. It would seem to make more sense for Christ to make the statement, "it is finished" after he rose from the grave....But he didn't. God very carefully and precisely recorded that statement while Christ was yet alive to teach us a very important truth, a truth that he would not reveal for over 1,955 years later. And that was that Christ could make that statement because the works to enter into his rest were actually finished from the foundation of the world, but the works that were written of him to fulfill the demonstration of his payment for sins were finished at the cross because on it, he was typifying someone who was accursed of God, but Christ's soul did not go to hell (the grave) when he died on the cross, instead, he and the thief went to be with the Father in paradise, the 3rd heaven.

This also presents another problem for those who hold to atonement taking place at the cross because in the Psalms (16:10) we read that Christ's soul was indeed in hell (under the wrath of God). But it wasn't at the time of the cross because, as I stated, his soul was in heaven that very day. It was at the point of the world's foundation that Christ's soul was in hell. The proof is once again found in the 4 gospels.

Luke 23:42
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[Radagast]

I don't care for any man made creed, only about what the Bible alone teaches.

The Nicene Creed is the SoF for CF. If you deny the Nicene Creed, you are not a Christian and you are not allowed to post here.

And the ESV is only accurate because it agrees with what you believe not because it is actually a faithful translation.

Incorrect. I actually read Greek.

If we are looking for faithful translations, then the KJV is by far the most faithful because it agrees closer with the original text

Incorrect.

Also, you're quoting Hebrews 9:25-26 but are only focusing on verse 26 as if verse 25 is not there

Incorrect. But the key sentence is indeed "But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

We can also understand this verse to say, "all things come to pass in parables".

No, we really can't.

Christ's ministry was indeed a parable which hid truth, because that is the purpose of a parable.

Incorrect. Christ spoke in parables, that's all.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I responded to this earlier, perhaps to someone else. But this actually creates a problem for those who hold to atonement taking place at the cross because Christ was alive when he said "it is finished", THEN he died. Moreover, the salvation plan of God not only included atonement for sins but also eternal life which was accomplished once Christ raised from the dead. It would seem to make more sense for Christ to make the statement, "it is finished" after he rose from the grave....But he didn't. God very carefully and precisely recorded that statement while Christ was yet alive to teach us a very important truth, a truth that he would not reveal for over 1,955 years later. And that was that Christ could make that statement because the works to enter into his rest were actually finished from the foundation of the world, but the works that were written of him to fulfill the demonstration of his payment for sins were finished at the cross because on it, he was typifying someone who was accursed of God, but Christ's soul did not go to hell (the grave) when he died on the cross, instead, he and the thief went to be with the Father in paradise, the 3rd heaven.

This also presents another problem for those who hold to atonement taking place at the cross because in the Psalms (16:10) we read that Christ's soul was indeed in hell (under the wrath of God). But it wasn't at the time of the cross because, as I stated, his soul was in heaven that very day. It was at the point of the world's foundation that Christ's soul was in hell. The proof is once again found in the 4 gospels.

Luke 23:42
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Psalm 16:10 does not say that Christ's soul was in hell at any time. You need to read the verse carefully. It is a Messianic prophetic psalm and the verse clearly means that God will keep Him out of hell, Jesus never went to hell at any time. The teaching that Jesus went to hell to atone for our sins is a Faith Movement heresy. Our atonement was achieved through the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. Maybe a course in Exegesis might benefit you.

 

[Gup20]

Hebrews 13:20 (NASB)
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,

So here we see that Christ’s resurrection was by God (not by his own righteousness) and through the blood of the eternal covenant.

That eternal covenant wasn’t made until Abraham.


Genesis 17:7 (NASB)
"I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

So Jesus couldn’t have been resurrected through a covenant which hadn’t yet been made.

 

[sdowney717]

Psalm 16:10 does not say that Christ's soul was in hell at any time. You need to read the verse carefully. It is a Messianic prophetic psalm and the verse clearly means that God will keep Him out of hell, Jesus never went to hell at any time. The teaching that Jesus went to hell to atone for our sins is a Faith Movement heresy. Our atonement was achieved through the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. Maybe a course in Exegesis might benefit you.

That is right, Jesus did not suffer in hell, tortured by demons.
He did though descend into the lower parts of the earth, that He might fill all things. But He did go to hell to take the captivity captive and then afterwards ascend, Peter clearly says He preached to the spirits in prison who were disobedient, who would have been in hell, they certainly were dead, and they were not in heaven. Hell is 'under the earth'.
Hell back then was composed of fiery torments and paradise but each was separated by a vast gulf preventing one side from crossing to the other side. They were able to see and communicate to the other side. Recall Abraham's bosom.
Now where do you suppose the righteous dead old testament saints went after death?
They did not go to heaven, they did not 'soul sleep', they did go to hell, but the good side of hell, hell was the place for all the dead. Christ said no one has ascended into heaven except the Son of Man who came down from heaven, so none of them went to heaven until Christ ascended, leading the captivity captive and took paradise back into heaven with him and all them that were there in paradise.

God raised Christ up from the dead.
Acts 2:23-25 New King James Version (NKJV)
23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
25 For David says concerning Him:
(so the following verses are about Christ not David)
‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’