Christ did not pay for sins at the cross, but at the world's foundation.

[Eddie Ramos]

In this time near the end of the world, Christ has opened up end time information from the scriptures that He had kept sealed up (according to Daniel 12:8-10) until the time of the end. One of those things was the fact that we had not truly understood the nature of the atonement by comparing it with the whole of the scriptures for harmony. I myself always believed that the atonement took place at the cross until God, by His grace, opened up the understanding of His people at this time and revealed more from His Word. Now I can see all the contradictions which the Bible lays out with believing that the atonement took place at the time of the cross.

One such contradiction is this:
Romans 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

This passage teaches us that Christ was declared to be the Son of God by the resurrection from the dead which was the time when Christ had victory over death, and through Him, also his elect. In other words, Christ's death and resurrection from the dead is what made eternal life possible. But it wasn't until Christ was raised from the dead, that he was declared to be the Son of God. That is what Romans 1:4 teaches us. Yet, we have read this statement so many times before and never given it much thought, nor seen the apparent contradiction.

Matthew 3:17
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

How could Christ be declared to be the Son of God before His death and resurrection at the time of the cross in 33 AD?

God gives us the answer here:

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This is when Christ died (not in principle) but in deed to make payment for sins and the cross of 33 AD served a twofold purpose, to fulfill the scriptures and to demonstrate what had already taken place before the world began.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in (or through) Christ Jesus before the world began,

I realize that this discussion may rub people the wrong way, but it is a biblical discussion nonetheless, of which the Bible can and does fully affirm to be true. The biggest obstacle now becomes someone's willingness to examine these things to see whether they are so. I would, however, be willing to answer any question on this subject, as best as I can.

 

[Elixir]

I'll need lots more study before I can provide my own thoughts, but I went to research this in my bible software and have come up with some interesting material in the commentaries that seems to support your argument.


[Rev 13:8]
"
...
The book of life is connected with the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. It is as the slain Lamb that Christ brings salvation. There are the two thoughts that it is the atoning death of Christ that is significant and that the salvation he brings is no afterthought. From the creation of the world should be taken with slain (cf. 1 Pet. 1:19–20) rather than with written (as mg.; this refers it to election as Eph. 1:4). Either way God’s eternal purpose is in view and is contrasted with the fleeting might of the powers of evil.
"

Morris, L. (1987). Revelation: an introduction and commentary (Vol. 20, p. 164). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.

[Revelations] 13:8 from the foundation of the world This may refer to the time when the names were entered in the book of life—suggesting that these people can have confidence in God’s work. But the Greek phrase used here, apo katabolēs kosmou, follows and may modify tou esphagemenou (“who was slain”). In this regard, it may be translated as: “those whose name has not been written in the book of life of the Lamb, who was slaughtered from the foundation (or founding) of the world.” This translation could mean that Christ’s saving death was always part of God’s plan of salvation (compare 1 Pet 1:19–20).

Barry, J. D., Mangum, D., Brown, D. R., Heiser, M. S., Custis, M., Ritzema, E., … Bomar, D. (2012, 2016). Faithlife Study Bible (Re 13:8). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.


It seems to make more sense too when I think about it for His payment to have happened not at the cruxifixion, which was confined to time and space on this Earth, but rather for it to happen where judgment happens - in spirit. So agreed .

 

[Coleton Bryce Ritmanich]

Oh, interesting. But from what I've read, it just sounds like "God planned salvation for people from the beginning" and not "Jesus did not die at the cross"

Then the 4 Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all tell the same lies, but in different ways?

You do realize you are calling his words lies, right?

Also you do realize, that with proper reading, "From the Foundation of the World" refers to Adam and Eve's Sin and God's promise to correct that sin through the plan of Salvation?

Did you purposely misembolden it?

 

[eleos1954]

In this time near the end of the world, Christ has opened up end time information from the scriptures that He had kept sealed up (according to Daniel 12:8-10) until the time of the end. One of those things was the fact that we had not truly understood the nature of the atonement by comparing it with the whole of the scriptures for harmony. I myself always believed that the atonement took place at the cross until God, by His grace, opened up the understanding of His people at this time and revealed more from His Word. Now I can see all the contradictions which the Bible lays out with believing that the atonement took place at the time of the cross.

One such contradiction is this:
Romans 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

This passage teaches us that Christ was declared to be the Son of God by the resurrection from the dead which was the time when Christ had victory over death, and through Him, also his elect. In other words, Christ's death and resurrection from the dead is what made eternal life possible. But it wasn't until Christ was raised from the dead, that he was declared to be the Son of God. That is what Romans 1:4 teaches us. Yet, we have read this statement so many times before and never given it much thought, nor seen the apparent contradiction.

Matthew 3:17
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

How could Christ be declared to be the Son of God before His death and resurrection at the time of the cross in 33 AD?

God gives us the answer here:

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This is when Christ died (not in principle) but in deed to make payment for sins and the cross of 33 AD served a twofold purpose, to fulfill the scriptures and to demonstrate what had already taken place before the world began.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in (or through) Christ Jesus before the world began,

I realize that this discussion may rub people the wrong way, but it is a biblical discussion nonetheless, of which the Bible can and does fully affirm to be true. The biggest obstacle now becomes someone's willingness to examine these things to see whether they are so. I would, however, be willing to answer any question on this subject, as best as I can.

The plan of salvation was put into place before creation.

Jesus IS the son of God ... that's who He is and has always been the son of God. There is no contradiction.

It is finished. All the work the Father gave to Jesus to do (in the form of a man) was completed on the cross. (salvation through Christ a reality)

The resurrection of Jesus demonstrated the power of God over death and reaffirmed all His (Jesus) teachings about being resurrected and of eternal life with God and demonstrated His victory over death of which those in Him will have as well.

No doubt both of the two are important.

 

[Coleton Bryce Ritmanich]

The plan of salvation was put into place before creation.

Jesus IS the son of God ... that's who He is and has always been the son of God. There is no contradiction.

It is finished. All the work the Father gave to Jesus to do (in the form of a man) was completed on the cross. (salvation through Christ a reality)

The resurrection of Jesus demonstrated the power of God over death and reaffirmed all His (Jesus) teachings about being resurrected and of eternal life with God and demonstrated His victory over death of which those in Him will have as well.

No doubt both of the two are important.

Literally couldn't have said it any better myself.

 

[Coleton Bryce Ritmanich]

In this time near the end of the world, Christ has opened up end time information from the scriptures that He had kept sealed up (according to Daniel 12:8-10) until the time of the end. One of those things was the fact that we had not truly understood the nature of the atonement by comparing it with the whole of the scriptures for harmony. I myself always believed that the atonement took place at the cross until God, by His grace, opened up the understanding of His people at this time and revealed more from His Word. Now I can see all the contradictions which the Bible lays out with believing that the atonement took place at the time of the cross.

One such contradiction is this:
Romans 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

This passage teaches us that Christ was declared to be the Son of God by the resurrection from the dead which was the time when Christ had victory over death, and through Him, also his elect. In other words, Christ's death and resurrection from the dead is what made eternal life possible. But it wasn't until Christ was raised from the dead, that he was declared to be the Son of God. That is what Romans 1:4 teaches us. Yet, we have read this statement so many times before and never given it much thought, nor seen the apparent contradiction.

Matthew 3:17
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

How could Christ be declared to be the Son of God before His death and resurrection at the time of the cross in 33 AD?

God gives us the answer here:

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This is when Christ died (not in principle) but in deed to make payment for sins and the cross of 33 AD served a twofold purpose, to fulfill the scriptures and to demonstrate what had already taken place before the world began.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in (or through) Christ Jesus before the world began,

I realize that this discussion may rub people the wrong way, but it is a biblical discussion nonetheless, of which the Bible can and does fully affirm to be true. The biggest obstacle now becomes someone's willingness to examine these things to see whether they are so. I would, however, be willing to answer any question on this subject, as best as I can.

I don't like how people pick and choose verses and words from the bible and twist them to fit their agenda.

Not a lot of things anger me, but that, that does. I can't imagine how God feels knowing that you don't believe in the Cross of Christ.

 

[Coleton Bryce Ritmanich]

I don't like how people pick and choose verses and words from the bible and twist them to fit their agenda.

Not a lot of things anger me, but that, that does. I can't imagine how God feels knowing that you don't believe in the Cross of Christ.

I mean Christianity itself is all about believing that Christ died for your sins on the Cross.

Just read your bible, in fact, read Hebrews 10:1-18

It's all there. Especially verse 14, 26, and 27 for all you "Once saved always saved people" also Ephesians Chapter 5. There's your homework, go do it.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Before the foundation of the world is referring to before chronological time i.e. before creation.

The Triune God co-existed before time began.

At the Cross, time and timelessness kissed.

At that instant His Blood was poured our across all time.

Understanding this makes real by faith that we can kneel before the Cross at any time and unload whatever He already took on Himself for us personally.

This is a beautiful truth and is the answer for release from much of what we struggle with.

The Cross is happening Now.

He is waiting for you to kneel there.

 

[Eddie Ramos]

Oh, interesting. But from what I've read, it just sounds like "God planned salvation for people from the beginning" and not "Jesus did not die at the cross"

Then the 4 Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all tell the same lies, but in different ways?

You do realize you are calling his words lies, right?

Also you do realize, that with proper reading, "From the Foundation of the World" refers to Adam and Eve's Sin and God's promise to correct that sin through the plan of Salvation?

Did you purposely misembolden it?

No, I don't misembolden the Word of God in any way, I seek for harmony which leads to truth. There is a big difference between the two. When Christ spoke things new to the ears of Israel, they too stopped their ears and refused to hear, this of course was also part of God's plan for them.

Isaiah 6:9-10
And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

So too, when God opens up more information from His Word and brings correction unto His children, and this information harmonizes with the scriptures, then we can be confident that we have come to truth. God did not only plan salvation from the beginning, He actually completed it. This is my whole point.

Hebrews 4:3
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

The works (not the principles, nor the plan of salvation, but the works) of salvation necessary for God's people to enter into his rest, were finished from the foundation of the world. Now we need to let the Bible define when is the foundation of the world? You stated that it must be at the fall of man in the garden, but the Bible disagrees, as it gives another definition.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in (which means "through") Christ Jesus before the world began,

Before the world began, is before Genesis 1:1. Likewise the foundation of the world comes before the world itself.

Job 38:4
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

These verses are a reference to Christ as the cornerstone, and then God continues by describing the creation of the earth. Christ is the foundation (the cornerstone) upon which this world was laid. This is why he has preeminence in all things, including the resurrection from the dead. But if you take the Bible literally, then Christ would have been the 7th to raise from the dead. Which again poses another apparent contradiction to this verse.

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

None of this is a problem when we can see that Christ died and rose again from the foundation of the world, or before the world began, making him the first to do so. The four gospels serve to confirm that the cross was not the time payment for sins were made if one's eyes have been opened to see the contradiction to believing that the cross was the time payment for sins took place. Here is another example that we can glean from reading the four gospels.

Have you noticed that Christ was forgiving sins before actually going to the cross to pay for them and he offered no animal sacrifices? How can he do this without violating his own law (The Word of God)?

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

That is, without death, there can be no forgiveness of sins. And the reason Christ did not offer up any animal sacrifices is because they never did anything to take away anyone's sins in the first place, as they only pointed to Christ himself. Yet, Christ was forgiving sins before the cross. Again, you have no way to harmonize this unless you can see that the only way Christ could do this was because he already paid for sins, by His death (meeting the requirements of the law of Heb 9:22) from the foundation of the world.

 

[mmksparbud]

In this time near the end of the world, Christ has opened up end time information from the scriptures that He had kept sealed up (according to Daniel 12:8-10) until the time of the end. One of those things was the fact that we had not truly understood the nature of the atonement by comparing it with the whole of the scriptures for harmony. I myself always believed that the atonement took place at the cross until God, by His grace, opened up the understanding of His people at this time and revealed more from His Word. Now I can see all the contradictions which the Bible lays out with believing that the atonement took place at the time of the cross.

One such contradiction is this:
Romans 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

This passage teaches us that Christ was declared to be the Son of God by the resurrection from the dead which was the time when Christ had victory over death, and through Him, also his elect. In other words, Christ's death and resurrection from the dead is what made eternal life possible. But it wasn't until Christ was raised from the dead, that he was declared to be the Son of God. That is what Romans 1:4 teaches us. Yet, we have read this statement so many times before and never given it much thought, nor seen the apparent contradiction.

Matthew 3:17
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

How could Christ be declared to be the Son of God before His death and resurrection at the time of the cross in 33 AD?

God gives us the answer here:

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This is when Christ died (not in principle) but in deed to make payment for sins and the cross of 33 AD served a twofold purpose, to fulfill the scriptures and to demonstrate what had already taken place before the world began.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in (or through) Christ Jesus before the world began,

I realize that this discussion may rub people the wrong way, but it is a biblical discussion nonetheless, of which the Bible can and does fully affirm to be true. The biggest obstacle now becomes someone's willingness to examine these things to see whether they are so. I would, however, be willing to answer any question on this subject, as best as I can.

It was decided at the foundation of the world:

Heb_9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Accomplished with the shedding of His blood.

 

[Coleton Bryce Ritmanich]

No, I don't misembolden the Word of God in any way, I seek for harmony which leads to truth. There is a big difference between the two. When Christ spoke things new to the ears of Israel, they too stopped their ears and refused to hear, this of course was also part of God's plan for them.

Isaiah 6:9-10
And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

So too, when God opens up more information from His Word and brings correction unto His children, and this information harmonizes with the scriptures, then we can be confident that we have come to truth. God did not only plan salvation from the beginning, He actually completed it. This is my whole point.

Hebrews 4:3
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

The works (not the principles, nor the plan of salvation, but the works) of salvation necessary for God's people to enter into his rest, were finished from the foundation of the world. Now we need to let the Bible define when is the foundation of the world? You stated that it must be at the fall of man in the garden, but the Bible disagrees, as it gives another definition.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in (which means "through") Christ Jesus before the world began,

Before the world began, is before Genesis 1:1. Likewise the foundation of the world comes before the world itself.

Job 38:4
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

These verses are a reference to Christ as the cornerstone, and then God continues by describing the creation of the earth. Christ is the foundation (the cornerstone) upon which this world was laid. This is why he has preeminence in all things, including the resurrection from the dead. But if you take the Bible literally, then Christ would have been the 7th to raise from the dead. Which again poses another apparent contradiction to this verse.

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

None of this is a problem when we can see that Christ died and rose again from the foundation of the world, or before the world began, making him the first to do so. The four gospels serve to confirm that the cross was not the time payment for sins were made if one's eyes have been opened to see the contradiction to believing that the cross was the time payment for sins took place. Here is another example that we can glean from reading the four gospels.

Have you noticed that Christ was forgiving sins before actually going to the cross to pay for them and he offered no animal sacrifices? How can he do this without violating his own law (The Word of God)?

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

That is, without death, there can be no forgiveness of sins. And the reason Christ did not offer up any animal sacrifices is because they never did anything to take away anyone's sins in the first place, as they only pointed to Christ himself. Yet, Christ was forgiving sins before the cross. Again, you have no way to harmonize this unless you can see that the only way Christ could do this was because he already paid for sins, by His death (meeting the requirements of the law of Heb 9:22) from the foundation of the world.

Really now? Then why did you refuse to quote my entire post and give an argument against my other questions? Or bother to do the Homework I assigned you? If you truly love God then why not be the first one to read the verses? Hmm...Interesting.

 

[Eddie Ramos]

The plan of salvation was put into place before creation.

Jesus IS the son of God ... that's who He is and has always been the son of God. There is no contradiction.

It is finished. All the work the Father gave to Jesus to do (in the form of a man) was completed on the cross. (salvation through Christ a reality)

The resurrection of Jesus demonstrated the power of God over death and reaffirmed all His (Jesus) teachings about being resurrected and of eternal life with God and demonstrated His victory over death of which those in Him will have as well.

No doubt both of the two are important.

Yes, Jesus IS the Son of God, but your next statement presents a problem if you believe that he died and rose to make payment for sins at the cross. This is the importance of seeking for harmony. Your next statement was "and has always been the Son of God". But according to Romans 1:4 he was declared to be the Son of God through (or by way of) his resurrection. This means that his resurrection had to take place first and then Christ rose to be called the Son of God. Well, as I posted earlier, we can see that God declared Christ to be His Son, long before the cross and his resurrection. This isn't a problem if we can see that Christ died and rose again to make payment for sins in eternity past (before the world began) allowing him to correctly be called the Son of God from the beginning of the world. Which is why now there is no contradiction to God's words at the time of Christ's baptism on earth.

Also, what was finished? When Christ made that statement, he had not yet risen from the dead. Dying for sins was only part of the salvation process, if we were to have eternal life, then Christ would have had to raise first from the dead, so, historically, it would have made more sense to say "it is finished" after he rose from the dead in 33 AD, not before. But what was finished was the demonstration of what he came to do and to fulfill what the scriptures had written about him. That was finished. But insofar as salvation itself was concerned, the works were finished from the foundation of the world (Heb 4:3). This is the only way the Old Testaments saints could become saved before the cross of 33 AD. Christ came to demonstrate what he had already accomplished. I hope this helps.

 

[eleos1954]

Yes, Jesus IS the Son of God, but your next statement presents a problem if you believe that he died and rose to make payment for sins at the cross. This is the importance of seeking for harmony. Your next statement was "and has always been the Son of God". But according to Romans 1:4 he was declared to be the Son of God through (or by way of) his resurrection. This means that his resurrection had to take place first and then Christ rose to be called the Son of God. Well, as I posted earlier, we can see that God declared Christ to be His Son, long before the cross and his resurrection. This isn't a problem if we can see that Christ died and rose again to make payment for sins in eternity past (before the world began) allowing him to correctly be called the Son of God from the beginning of the world. Which is why now there is no contradiction to God's words at the time of Christ's baptism on earth.

Also, what was finished? When Christ made that statement, he had not yet risen from the dead. Dying for sins was only part of the salvation process, if we were to have eternal life, then Christ would have had to raise first from the dead, so, historically, it would have made more sense to say "it is finished" after he rose from the dead in 33 AD, not before. But what was finished was the demonstration of what he came to do and to fulfill what the scriptures had written about him. That was finished. But insofar as salvation itself was concerned, the works were finished from the foundation of the world (Heb 4:3). This is the only way the Old Testaments saints could become saved before the cross of 33 AD. Christ came to demonstrate what he had already accomplished. I hope this helps.

There was a PLAN ... and the PLAN was fulfilled in Christ through the shedding of His blood.

Heb 10:11-12

“every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God”.

Colossians 1:20

20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

 

[Eddie Ramos]

Really now? Then why did you refuse to quote my entire post and give an argument against my other questions? Or bother to do the Homework I assigned you? If you truly love God then why not be the first one to read the verses? Hmm...Interesting.

Not sure what you mean. I'm new here, but as far as I can tell, when I hit the button "reply" it automatically quotes your entire post and so I responded to it. I went back to check and it appears that I in fact did quote the entire post. Not sure how it shows up on your end. Also I answered the entire post as best and as thorough as I could.

If you, however , are referring to me addressing all of your subsequent posts, then in 2 of them, you were simply stating how you felt and in another, you asked me to read and comment on chapters and chapters of the Bible which is not easy to do for a text type forum. If you have a specific question about any of those chapters, then perhaps you can narrow down your concern to what I am stating the Bible declaring at this time.

 

[Coleton Bryce Ritmanich]

Yes, Jesus IS the Son of God, but your next statement presents a problem if you believe that he died and rose to make payment for sins at the cross. This is the importance of seeking for harmony. Your next statement was "and has always been the Son of God". But according to Romans 1:4 he was declared to be the Son of God through (or by way of) his resurrection. This means that his resurrection had to take place first and then Christ rose to be called the Son of God. Well, as I posted earlier, we can see that God declared Christ to be His Son, long before the cross and his resurrection. This isn't a problem if we can see that Christ died and rose again to make payment for sins in eternity past (before the world began) allowing him to correctly be called the Son of God from the beginning of the world. Which is why now there is no contradiction to God's words at the time of Christ's baptism on earth.

Also, what was finished? When Christ made that statement, he had not yet risen from the dead. Dying for sins was only part of the salvation process, if we were to have eternal life, then Christ would have had to raise first from the dead, so, historically, it would have made more sense to say "it is finished" after he rose from the dead in 33 AD, not before. But what was finished was the demonstration of what he came to do and to fulfill what the scriptures had written about him. That was finished. But insofar as salvation itself was concerned, the works were finished from the foundation of the world (Heb 4:3). This is the only way the Old Testaments saints could become saved before the cross of 33 AD. Christ came to demonstrate what he had already accomplished. I hope this helps.

What "Harmony" you are becoming a stumbling block to others not well versed in the Word of God by twisting it? Why haven't you replied to me and answered all my questions? You claim Harmony, but don't act it. You twist scripture and use it for evidence but it is not evident to me that you have all the answers on this subject.

Tell me two things, do you believe the four testimony Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John lied?

If so, why?

 

[Coleton Bryce Ritmanich]

Not sure what you mean. I'm new here, but as far as I can tell, when I hit the button "reply" it automatically quotes your entire post and so I responded to it. I went back to check and it appears that I in fact did quote the entire post. Not sure how it shows up on your end. Also I answered the entire post as best and as thorough as I could.

If you, however , are referring to me addressing all of your subsequent posts, then in 2 of them, you were simply stating how you felt and in another, you asked me to read and comment on chapters and chapters of the Bible which is not easy to do for a text type forum. If you have a specific question about any of those chapters, then perhaps you can narrow down your concern to what I am stating the Bible declaring at this time.

Really now, I don't see an answer to "Oh, interesting. But from what I've read, it just sounds like "God planned salvation for people from the beginning" and not "Jesus did not die at the cross"

Then the 4 Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all tell the same lies, but in different ways?

You do realize you are calling his words lies, right?

Also you do realize, that with proper reading, "From the Foundation of the World" refers to Adam and Eve's Sin and God's promise to correct that sin through the plan of Salvation?

Did you purposely misembolden it?"

You only replied to one of my questions not all of them.

 

[Coleton Bryce Ritmanich]

Really now, I don't see an answer to "Oh, interesting. But from what I've read, it just sounds like "God planned salvation for people from the beginning" and not "Jesus did not die at the cross"

Then the 4 Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all tell the same lies, but in different ways?

You do realize you are calling his words lies, right?

Also you do realize, that with proper reading, "From the Foundation of the World" refers to Adam and Eve's Sin and God's promise to correct that sin through the plan of Salvation?

Did you purposely misembolden it?"

You only replied to one of my questions not all of them.

And then gave more scriptures.

 

[Eddie Ramos]

There was a PLAN ... and the PLAN was fulfilled in Christ through the shedding of His blood.

Heb 10:11-12

“every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God”.

Colossians 1:20
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

There are indeed many passages in the Bible which can give the impression that Christ's death on the cross made payment for sins, but again, truth is found when we can take any doctrine we hold to be true and examined against the whole Bible for harmony. Harmony is agreement, it is how the Bible confirms to us that we are under a correct understanding regarding any doctrine we hold, it is also how God corrects us when we are in error.

1 John 5:7-9
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness (bear record) in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Because the entire Bible is the Word of God, the entire record agrees in one. This is what is referred to as harmony. Once we understand that, we can turn to any passage of the Bible and see if it agrees with any doctrine we hold to be true. You quoted Heb 10:11-12 which very accurately affirms that the earthly priests daily sacrifice never did anything to take away sins, but Christ's one sacrifice was enough to complete the requirement of the law which was death. You then quoted Col 1:20 to perhaps prove that it took place at the time of the cross because that's what it seems to plainly say. But notice the final statement you quoted in Heb 10:12. It says, "But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God".

If you take a closer look at this passage (like each original Greek word) then you will see that it says something quite interesting. You can use an interlinear which shows you a word for word translation of the original text ( I myself use Green's interlinear Bible to search out words) you will notice that it says this: "But He, offering but one sacrifice for sins sat down in perpetuity (meaning, in eternity) at the right hand of God". This agrees with the fact that the Bible declares that that's when payment for sins was made, in eternity past or from the foundation of the world. This is no twisting of the text by any means (as some suggest) but it is looking closer than the basic English (non inspired) translations in order to come to truth.

In closing, everything Christ said and did in his earthly ministry was all a parable, meaning it all really happened, but it all served to conceal a spiritual truth, which is precisely what a parable does. The cross therefore represents him that is accursed of God, which is exactly the picture (parable) Christ was portraying when he hung on it and died in order to fulfill the scriptures.

Mark 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] (the word "these" is not in the original text) ALL THINGS are done in parables:

The word "done" is Strong's #1096 and it is also translated as "come to pass". In other words, "all things come to pass in parables". Everything Christ came to do was so that the scriptures would be fulfilled, meaning that they would come to pass, and they did so, in parables.

 

[Coleton Bryce Ritmanich]

@Eddie Ramos I will be in serious prayer for your soul. Consider it a blessing. Not meant to harm you in any way.

 

[Eddie Ramos]

What "Harmony" you are becoming a stumbling block to others not well versed in the Word of God by twisting it? Why haven't you replied to me and answered all my questions? You claim Harmony, but don't act it. You twist scripture and use it for evidence but it is not evident to me that you have all the answers on this subject.

Tell me two things, do you believe the four testimony Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John lied?

If so, why?

I will click and paste here a portion of a comment I made to someone else here in regards to what I mean by the word "harmony".

"There are indeed many passages in the Bible which can give the impression that Christ's death on the cross made payment for sins, but again, truth is found when we can take any doctrine we hold to be true and examined against the whole Bible for harmony. Harmony is agreement, it is how the Bible confirms to us that we are under a correct understanding regarding any doctrine we hold, it is also how God corrects us when we are in error.

1 John 5:7-9
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness (bear record) in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Because the entire Bible is the Word of God, the entire record agrees in one. This is what is referred to as harmony".

The only way to be a stumbling block here is to not encourage people to search out the scriptures to make sure these things are so. I'm not doing that. Or to try and convince people to believe me because I am telling the truth, I'm not doing that either because I can't make anyone see any truth, all I can do is present what the Bible teaches and people will either see it or not. That is God's business, not mine. Again, I'm trying to answer all of your questions but you have to narrow down your specific concern. I can't comment on chapters and chapters which you told me to do. It's just not feasible in this forum. Is there a specific verse or two within those chapters that you have a question about?

And to answer your last question, the entire Word of God is truth, this of course includes the 4 gospels. You claim that I state they lied because you are unwilling to examine the evidence I am putting forth. You are set in your ways but have not so much as answered one apparent contradiction which I have listed thus far. You are making the mistake of taking the Word of God at face value and reading it like a basic and plain book, when it's not, it is a spiritual and holy book which needs the Holy Spirit to understand properly. This is why when Christ begun to say and do things in front of the Pharisees, they accused him of having a new doctrine, when in reality, it was just lack of spiritual understanding on their part because they were never saved.

God can and does conceal truth from His Word until His timing comes to finally reveal these truths, only then can we understand them, no matter how basic and plain a statement may seem.

Luke 18:31
Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,