Christ and Nonviolent Resistance.

theIdi0t said:

Well if the word "evolution" offends you, you can substitute it with "the condition of our flesh", that tells us an eye for an eye, rather than offer the other cheek.

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...as it is written in James chapter 4, "From whence come wars and fightings [1] among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy." that's why there's this need for the Christ of Non-Violence, cause we're so messed up!

Not to attack someone(s) but I don't know what is worst an over long article or something written a form that is just as hard to understand.

What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don't get it. You hate and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God. Anyone who chooses to be friend of the world of the world becomes an enemy of God.

theIdi0t said:

Do not make being "born again" into a form of ungodly Korban. Being born again is a process of renewal and the fruits of that renewal are being kind and generous, helping others etc...

If you do not love you neighbor, seek justice, tend to the orphan and the widow, you are not "born again" you are born into a lie.

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Being born again is not a process. It is an event. It is the moment when one no longer is a non-Christian, doomed to hell, but a new person, a Christian, destined to heaven.

If you think it is a process, you are depending upon your good works to get to heaven. You are trying to earn God's free gift. You can never do enough good to pay for your sin. You either accept God's sinless Substitute for your payment, or your sin debt goes unpaid. Jesus said it another way, "You must be born again."

wildthing said:

What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don't get it. You hate and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God. Anyone who chooses to be friend of the world of the world becomes an enemy of God.

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...that's what I said!

mayfly said:

Being born again is not a process. It is an event. It is the moment when one no longer is a non-Christian, doomed to hell, but a new person, a Christian, destined to heaven.

If you think it is a process, you are depending upon your good works to get to heaven. You are trying to earn God's free gift. You can never do enough good to pay for your sin. You either accept God's sinless Substitute for your payment, or your sin debt goes unpaid. Jesus said it another way, "You must be born again."

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...the Bible does tell us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling", and that "he that endureth to the end shall be saved." when Jesus said, "It is finished", He meant that the penalty required to meet God's justice for our sins was 'paid in full', that "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." Jesus also said, "Ye shall know them by their fruits! I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." if we resist God's will which is our 'sanctification', how can we have any assurance of our 'justification', or hope for our eventual 'exaltation'? when I hear of Pastors supporting 'same-sex' marriage, or of Christians 'working' in the Adult Entertainment Industry, I have to wonder what 'gospel' is being preached; 'Grace on Account', the or 'Grace of No Account'?

mayfly said:

Being born again is not a process. It is an event. It is the moment when one no longer is a non-Christian, doomed to hell, but a new person, a Christian, destined to heaven.

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It is both. The first step on a journey is an event. The journey is a process. Nowhere does scripture recommend we remain at the first step on the journey of being born again. Quite the opposite. As Peter says, we who are new-born are to "grow into salvation" 1 Peter 2:2

If you think it is a process, you are depending upon your good works to get to heaven.

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No, we are depending on God's grace not to leave us as abandoned children on the doorstep but to nurture us and develop in us the fruits of the spirit and the qualities of eternal life so that (as Paul says to Timothy 2 Tim. 3: 17) we may be "equipped for every good work". And again Paul reminds the Ephesians (2:10), we are "God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

This is a wonderful promise. God has actually prepared good works for us to do and created us in Christ Jesus to do them.

How can doing the good works prepared for us to do be confused with relying on good works for salvation? It is rather growing in Christ as all who are new-born are expected to do.

Refusing to do the good works God prepared for us to do is refusing to fulfill God's purpose in electing us to be born again. It is trying to claim salvation while not letting salvation work in you. It is trying to remain forever an unripe fruit, dying on the vine instead of fulfilling its purpose.

NOTE: The Greek and Hebrew terms for "salvation" also mean "healing" and healing is a process. In the Aramaic that Jesus spoke and in NT Greek, the words that mean "Your faith has saved you" and "Your faith has healed you" are identical.

So to be born again implies being healed, being made whole after being broken. Like broken tools, God mends us so that we can do what we have been created to do, namely, the good works he has prepared in advance for us to do.

The good works we do are not a means to salvation, but evidence that the process of salvation is at work in us. So it is quite erroneous to accuse us of relying on good works to earn salvation.

Rather, like James, we challenge ourselves and all who claim Christ as their Redeemer to witness to the vitality of their faith through their works. In this way we fulfill the command of Christ to not only hear his words but to do them.

PostTribber said:

...that's what I said!

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True, that is what you said. But you used a very old form of English which is not understood by the masses. As far as I know Shakespearean English is only used on the stage and in private readings at least that is way I have been brought up. The Shakespearean form of English as practiced by some of the churches has been a major turn off for me and perhaps to others. I was brought up in a church that was very much in to that form of English. Being dyslexic (not stupid) I have learned to speak and write plainly and understandable to all.

I only have one question. Why did jesus say "It's time to get some swords" to the disciples, right before he was arrested? He knew there was going to be wide scale persecution and wanted the christians to defend themselves.

ProdigalSeeker said:

I only have one question. Why did jesus say "It's time to get some swords" to the disciples, right before he was arrested? He knew there was going to be wide scale persecution and wanted the christians to defend themselves.

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Yet the Christians did not defend themselves for three centuries, preferring martyrdom to violence.

Maybe they knew something you haven't thought of. Like maybe Jesus was being ironic. After all, when Peter did pull out his sword, Jesus stopped him, and even healed the man he had wounded.

Christians did not start using swords until after the persecutions stopped and then more often to persecute others than to defend themselves.

Maybe we need to learn more from the example of the early Christians.

No. I really don't believe he was being ironic.

From Luke-
35

And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
<A href="http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B42C022.htm#N37">37


For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
And he Isa 53:12

38

And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Totally my opinion, but I don't think he was being ironic.

ProdigalSeeker said:

No. I really don't believe he was being ironic.

From Luke-
35

And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
<A href="http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B42C022.htm#N37">37


For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
And he Isa 53:12

38

And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Totally my opinion, but I don't think he was being ironic.

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Yes, totally your opinion, and of course a written text does not preserve tone of voice, facial expression, etc.

But we also need to take into account that the very people Jesus was speaking to here went on to teach the early Christians not to resist with violence, and the early Church was quite firm in its belief that the teaching of Christ and the apostles was not to resort to violence, not to defend themselves with the sword.

So if Jesus really meant this as a counsel to defend oneself, why did the apostles (who are the only ones who heard this) teach the opposite to the early Christians and teach it so strongly that the Church never counseled using violence to protect oneself from persecution?

I suggest you pick up a book called It Is Not Lawful for Me to Fight by Jean Michel Hornus to see just how strong and consistent the early Church was in its convictions on this point.

http://www.amazon.com/Not-Lawful-Fi...8809532?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187028417&sr=1-1

I think it is pretty difficult to suggest from just one verse in scripture that they were so totally wrong about Jesus' attitude to violent resistance.

Yes, but Jesus also said He did not come to bring peace but war.

ProdigalSeeker said:

Yes, but Jesus also said He did not come to bring peace but war.

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But he did not command Christians to initiate war.

Jesus knew that his gospel would bring controversy and that those who opposed it would use violence, so in that sense he did not come to bring peace.

Violence and war would come even if he and his followers tried to keep the peace. That is all this verse means.

When you look at his actual instructions, both his own words in the gospels and as relayed indirectly in the epistles, the message to Christians is always to keep the peace, but also be prepared to suffer patiently the violence that others will inflict on them and to return good for evil.

There is an essay that floats about the internet -

rather than copy it here, I'll post a link.
http://www.pgpft.com/On_Sheep_Wolves_and_Sheepdogs-Grossman.htm

I believe there has to be room in heaven for Sheepdogs. Some people are called to serve in capacities of violence. Violence need not be evil nor do only evil men do violence.

Will I die by the sword? I hope not, but Jesus said it is likely. I will live and die by my bullets and blades and pray the Lord greet me, "well done my good and faithful sheepdog".

Isn't there something in Proverbs that goes "there is a time for peace, and a time for war" ? I remember reading it somewhere....can't remember though. That verse does stick out in my mind, however...I'm sure I could find it again if I tried long enough.

I think that war itself is sometimes necessary to preserve the lives of innocents. But I don't think God condemns war entirely....Jesus himself will come back to destroy Antichrist's army, after all. The final battle, hehe.

You shouldn't fight a war for the wrong reasons, though.

Then too, there is the question -

Do you believe that God is the same as He was, is and ever more shall be?

If yes, than the God we speak of has at times ordered His people to war, sometimes genocide . . . and even fought along side his people in some wars. Check out what happened to the walls of Jericho for example. And then there is my favorite Bible chapter, written by "the man after God's own heart" - Psalm 144 starts:

1 Blessed be the L[SIZE=-1]ORD[/SIZE] my strength,
which teacheth my hands to war,and my fingers to fight:2 my goodness, and my fortress;
my high tower, and my deliverer;my shield, and he in whom I trust;who subdueth my people under me.

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Edited to add: I just don't believe that God changes His mind or the folks that say "well that is in the Old Testament, so it doesn't count". The God to whom I kneel is changless and timeless.