Christ and Genesis 1-2 "contraditions"

[Aman777]

pshun2404;62609995]Sorry Aman, you totally missed what I was talking about. I agree Adam was "made" physically first (no scripture suggests on day three) and I never suggested that he evolved from some earlier creature...

Dear Paul, Here are my views on Genesis 2:4-7

2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

This verse is speaking of a certain Day, the same Day the earth was made. Genesis 1:9-10 shows that this is the 3rd Day.

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

This verse confirms that Scripture is speaking of the 3rd Day since the plants were brought forth from the ground on the 3rd Day. Genesis 1:12

6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Conclusion: On the 3rd Day AFTER the earth was made, but BEFORE the plants grew, the LORD formed man of the dust of the ground. Correct?


Paul:>>I said Genesis 1 described creation (bara) and then Genesis 2 addresses God giving His creatures there material forms...that's all...creation and formation...whether as a process or almost simultaneously as we would perceive it is irrelevant to the OP...I have my view from the Hebrew and that would be that God created the plants and then He made them in a formative sense (which could be one momentary phenomena) my example of creating mankind male and female but giving them form as first the male then the female should have made that clear...where you got what you read into it I have no idea...but the Lord bless you...

As for Genesis 2 account of Adam and Eve, since it follows the 7th day rest of Elohim it could be the 8th day (which is a type of first day) but that is another issue again based on the language itself...

Genesis Chapter 1 is the entire HISTORY of the creation of the third heaven, the perfect world of God. Since God is STILL creating sinners in Christ, we are still at Genesis 1:27. The events of Genesis 1:28-31 are future events, which will not take place until the end of the present 6th Creative Day, the Day or Age of Salvation.

Genesis 2 begins by telling us the HISTORY of the 7th Day, which is future. When God finishes His work and ALL the host of heaven is in heaven, God will rest from ALL of His work of creating. The fact that God rests from ALL of His work of creating is repeated in Genesis 2:2 and Genesis 2:3.

The Scriptural fact that God is STILL creating sinners in Christ, and the Fact that Jesus tells us that He and His Father are working up to the present time, (John 5 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)), and the Fact that the Holy Spirit continues to work TODAY, confirms that God is STILL working today to bring His creation of the perfect heaven to perfection, and to fill it with His children.

God has but 7 Days and the 7th has no evening and no morning. This confirms that the 7th Day is Eternity. Our God is an Awesome God. He told us the details of our HISTORY from the beginning. It's PROOF of God. Praise His Holy Name.

In Love,
Aman

 

[SkyWriting]

pshun2404;62609995]Sorry Aman, you totally missed what I was talking about. I agree Adam was "made" physically first (no scripture suggests on day three) and I never suggested that he evolved from some earlier creature...

Dear Paul, Here are my views on Genesis 2:4-7

2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

This verse is speaking of a certain Day, the same Day the earth was made. Genesis 1:9-10 shows that this is the 3rd Day.

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

This verse confirms that Scripture is speaking of the 3rd Day since the plants were brought forth from the ground on the 3rd Day. Genesis 1:12

6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Conclusion: On the 3rd Day AFTER the earth was made, but BEFORE the plants grew, the LORD formed man of the dust of the ground. Correct?


Paul:>>I said Genesis 1 described creation (bara) and then Genesis 2 addresses God giving His creatures there material forms...that's all...creation and formation...whether as a process or almost simultaneously as we would perceive it is irrelevant to the OP...I have my view from the Hebrew and that would be that God created the plants and then He made them in a formative sense (which could be one momentary phenomena) my example of creating mankind male and female but giving them form as first the male then the female should have made that clear...where you got what you read into it I have no idea...but the Lord bless you...

As for Genesis 2 account of Adam and Eve, since it follows the 7th day rest of Elohim it could be the 8th day (which is a type of first day) but that is another issue again based on the language itself...

Genesis Chapter 1 is the entire HISTORY of the creation of the third heaven, the perfect world of God. Since God is STILL creating sinners in Christ, we are still at Genesis 1:27. The events of Genesis 1:28-31 are future events, which will not take place until the end of the present 6th Creative Day, the Day or Age of Salvation.

Creation week ended. Nothing in Genesis suggests otherwise.

 

[SkyWriting]

Because the two chapters describe the creation in two completely different orders.

The order of creation in Genesis 1 is: plants, fish and birds, animals, man and woman.
The order of creation in Genesis 2 is: man, plants, animals and birds, woman.

Of course these two sequences of events are only contradictory if you assume the creation accounts are written as literal history.

If I write about you, I might mention your name first. Don't bet on it.
If Genesis 2 is about the Creation of man, the order of importance might not be chronological. As is the case you illustrate.
Ever read history? Literal history is not the same as chronological history. Not by a wild, twisted, long shot.

 

[Assyrian]

If I write about you, I might mention your name first. Don't bet on it.

Chetsinger didn't answer the question for you.

If Genesis 2 is about the Creation of man, the order of importance might not be chronological. As is the case you illustrate.
Ever read history? Literal history is not the same as chronological history. Not by a wild, twisted, long shot.

Genesis 2 presents the creation as a narrative, the story of creation. The sequence of events in the story, what happened, what happened next, what happened after that, tells us the events just as as chronologically as a timeline.

 

[Papias]

Genesis is the word of God, who chose to use two different stories. It's been settled for a long time, among the Bible scholars - including evangelical ones - that the two stories in Genesis are two separate, different stories that are not meant to agree in every detail. Attempts to hide "contradictions" by changing the meaning of the text only show the unbelievers that we really don't respect the scripture after all. That's like arguing that "The Hobbit" and "Narnia" are actually the same story, one being told in greater detail or such.

I encourage anyone who thinks we need to deny the condradictions - as if the contradictions were some kind of "problem", to read up on Biblical scholarship, especially by those who are fluent in the original Hebrew. Here is one, but there are many others - or simply go to a seminary to become a minister, it's one of the first things they teach to all ministers in training at both protestant and Catholic seminaries nationwide. Reading the Fractures of Genesis: Historical and Literary Approaches - David McLain Carr - Google Books

Of course there are contradictions when someone pretends that two different stories are a retelling of the same story. The problem is not that there are "contradictions", but rather that humans try to mash God's two stories into one human story.

In Christ-

Papias

 

[pshun2404]

Hi Paul. You're saying exegetically the text puts the events of chapter 2 on day 8? I'm wondering how you got that.

God created man, both male and female on day 6, and Eve was made in the Garden from Adam's rib in the chapter 2 events. Therefore, it must have been an expansion of day 6.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you're saying.

Yes! I am not saying it is day eight, I am saying it could be but one thing for sure...nothing indicates it is day three as one has stated earlier. And nothing says there were no other animals when God made the animals to comfort Adam in his loneliness or aloneness...God saying it is not good for man to be alone is indicative of the order in which they were formed (given form). But your statement "God created man, both male and female on day 6, and Eve was made in the Garden from Adam's rib in the chapter 2 events. Therefore, it must have been an expansion of day 6," is only true if one assumes the creation and formation were simultaneous (and not process) but the scripture does not actually say this...and I realize this presentation of the idea I suggested is speculative and COULD not be true...but if taken as it is written I do not see this spontaneously simultaneous because God formed man (a being already in ideation) of the dust of the ground, and the Spirit has not given us a clue as to how long the formation took...Genesis 1 implies they were created simultaneously but they were not formed (made...given form) simultaneously...

It is just a thought, albeit not one agreeing with what we are taught to believe...

And Amman777 I do understand your position and I am not saying it is WRONG (no moral judgment here as we are discussing) but I am not convinced it is correct...in fact I am not "convinced" of the position I presented...I know the important thing is that we agree that God created, formed, whatever...only I think process can be demonstrated as a possibility of what is being stated here...

Paul

 

[Calminian]

Yes! I am not saying it is day eight, I am saying it could be but one thing for sure...nothing indicates it is day three as one has stated earlier.

I would just suggest it could neither be day 8 or 3.

And nothing says there were no other animals when God made the animals to comfort Adam in his loneliness or aloneness...God saying it is not good for man to be alone is indicative of the order in which they were formed (given form). But your statement "God created man, both male and female on day 6, and Eve was made in the Garden from Adam's rib in the chapter 2 events. Therefore, it must have been an expansion of day 6," is only true if one assumes the creation and formation were simultaneous (and not process) but the scripture does not actually say this...and I realize this presentation of the idea I suggested is speculative and COULD not be true...but if taken as it is written I do not see this spontaneously simultaneous because God formed man (a being already in ideation) of the dust of the ground, and the Spirit has not given us a clue as to how long the formation took...Genesis 1 implies they were created simultaneously but they were not formed (made...given form) simultaneously...

It is just a thought, albeit not one agreeing with what we are taught to believe...

A little thought, yes, but I would suggest you and Amman are making essentially the same mistake in trying to fit genesis into naturalistic theories of long ages.

What you're suggesting violates every possible viable reading of the text. The idea that man was in some rudimentary form on day six, but then fully formed some later day cannot be justified. The word there used on day 6 for mankind is the hebrew adam. This couldn't have been some pre-adamic creature.

Also, there is nothing in the text of chapter 2 indicating that animals were formed upon God noticing Adam's loneliness. The hebrew is silent on that matter, leaving it to context. You'll notice the way the NIV renders the passage.

Gen. 2:18 The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

Gen. 2:19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animalsa and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man calledc each living creature,d that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.​

And while the rendering of the NIV is perfectly valid, other translations are fine as well, so long as one reads in context to avoid confusion.

It's also notable that Gen. 2:4 marks the end of the creation account, and Gen. 2:5 (or possible 2:4b) starts a new account (Adam's account Gen. 5:1a). It's important because it shows a very important subject change from creation of the universe, to the formation of a garden of Eden and all that was involved in that. This is why the subject switched to cultivated plants which need human tillers (Gen. 2:5). This is why the formation of animals is briefly mentioned by the writer, as this is the first animals are mentioned in this account. (yet another case of the tablet theory obliterating textual challenges in Genesis)

Bottom line I think you're missing a tremendous blessing going the old earth route. I'd be interested in your feedback to this post, though.

 

[Aman777]

Paul:>>but if taken as it is written I do not see this spontaneously simultaneous because God formed man (a being already in ideation) of the dust of the ground, and the Spirit has not given us a clue as to how long the formation took...Genesis 1 implies they were created simultaneously but they were not formed (made...given form) simultaneously...

Dear Paul, Adam was "formed" (Heb-sqeezed into shape as a Potter molds the clay) BEFORE the Sun, Moon, Stars, of the 4th Day, and Before the living creatures which were "created" from the water on the 5th Day, and Before the beasts of the field and fowl which were "formed" at the beginning of the 6th Day. Adam lived in a perfect body like the one we will have in heaven and lived for Billions of years with Jesus.

Paul:>>It is just a thought, albeit not one agreeing with what we are taught to believe...

And Amman777 I do understand your position and I am not saying it is WRONG (no moral judgment here as we are discussing) but I am not convinced it is correct...in fact I am not "convinced" of the position I presented...I know the important thing is that we agree that God created, formed, whatever...only I think process can be demonstrated as a possibility of what is being stated here...

I agree and would like to "add to" what I posted before. Since I view Genesis chapter one as the entire History of the creation of the third heaven, I see the entirety of the rest of the Bible as pointing back to the outline presented in Genesis one. This allows me to see WHEN the creation of Adam and Eve Spiritually, took place. It was AFTER Cain killed Abel in Genesis 4.

Remember that Adam sinned and was found naked, in sinful flesh. He lost his perfect body which had lived with Jesus for Billions of years out of his desire to become one with Eve. He lived in sin many years before he and Eve were "created in God's Image", Spiirtually.

This happened in Genesis 5:1, and some of the same words of Genesis 1:26-27 are the SAME as those in Genesis 5. This is also when Adam's age, as a man, began to be counted. He lived for 130 years AFTER he was born again before he and Eve had Seth and his age lived as a man was some 930 years. He lived with Jesus for Billions of years, but only 930 as a man in the flesh. This interpretation shows that we will meet and speak with Adam and Eve in heaven, for he, like all of us, was born again.

I realize that this goes against traditional religious teaching, but check it out, and give me your opinion, for it is fascinating. Thanks for your reply. God Bless you.

In Love,
Aman

 

[SkyWriting]

Chetsinger didn't answer the question for you.


Genesis 2 presents the creation as a narrative, the story of creation. The sequence of events in the story, what happened, what happened next, what happened after that, tells us the events just as as chronologically as a timeline.

That's exactly not how it reads. It's always good to not link
to the text when trying to make a erroneous point.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+2&version=NIV

This is not creation in order:

8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden;

This is not creation in order:

18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” 19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky.

In particular, if a prior explanation, such as Gen 1, explains the creation order,
then that lends context to Gen 2, showing that Gen 2 is an amplification
of the truth. Not an equal replacement for facts already stated.
Just as the new testament is an amplification of the old testament.

Just like in real life, "conflicting" versions of one story add details to the actual event.
Note that the synoptic gospels all tell of the same events.

 

[SkyWriting]

Genesis is the word of God, who chose to use two different stories. It's been settled for a long time, among the Bible scholars - including evangelical ones - that the two stories in Genesis are two separate, different stories that are not meant to agree in every detail.

That's because they have all agreed that they tell the same story, one as an explanation of physical Creation, and Gen 2 with the focus on the story as it relates to Adam & Eve specifically. And how the first perfect Creation was destroyed by Sin.

 

[hedrick]

Genesis 2 isn't describing the chronological order in which everything was created - Genesis 1 did that. It's describing God introducing Man [Adam] to all the things He has already created. Looking at the passages it's pretty clear than Adam and Eve were created last.

With exegesis like this we can prove absolutely anything we want from Scripture. I respectfully ask you to consider again whether you aren't seeing what you want, and not what's there. The story is pretty clear: God creates the animals, brings them to Adam, and when he doesn't find a fit companion, God creates the woman.

 

[Aman777]

Originally Posted by Notedstrangeperson

Genesis 2 isn't describing the chronological order in which everything was created - Genesis 1 did that. It's describing God introducing Man [Adam] to all the things He has already created. Looking at the passages it's pretty clear than Adam and Eve were created last.
​

Hedrick:>>With exegesis like this we can prove absolutely anything we want from Scripture. I respectfully ask you to consider again whether you aren't seeing what you want, and not what's there. The story is pretty clear: God creates the animals, brings them to Adam, and when he doesn't find a fit companion, God creates the woman.

Dear Hedrick, Adam was "formed" on the 3rd Day. Gen. 2:4-7 IOW, he was made physically but was NOT "created." At the beginning of the 6th Day, the LORD brought the beasts of the earth and the fowl to Adam who named them. When a help meet was not found for Adam, the LORD made Eve out of Adam's tissue. Gen. 2:22

Adam sinned and was cast from the Garden and had two sons. Cain killed Abel (Gen. 4:8) and after that, Adam was "created in God's Image," or created Spiritually, Eternally. Genesis 5:1-2 AFTER this Adam lived for 930 years and died on the present 6th Day. That's God's Truth, and the chronology which is true to Scripture.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Aman777]

Aman:>>Genesis Chapter 1 is the entire HISTORY of the creation of the third heaven, the perfect world of God. Since God is STILL creating sinners in Christ, we are still at Genesis 1:27. The events of Genesis 1:28-31 are future events, which will not take place until the end of the present 6th Creative Day, the Day or Age of Salvation.

Sky:>>Creation week ended. Nothing in Genesis suggests otherwise.

Dear Sky, Thanks for your opinion. Please explain WHEN mankind has had dominion or rule of EVERY other living creature and WHEN every living creature was a Vegetarian. Your opinon doesn't count when measured against Facts, especially those from God's Holy Word. Isaiah tells us in Isaiah 11:7 that Lions eating straw like the Ox is future. Do you disagree with Isaiah?

In Love,
Aman

 

[Aman777]

Papias:>>Genesis is the word of God, who chose to use two different stories. It's been settled for a long time, among the Bible scholars - including evangelical ones - that the two stories in Genesis are two separate, different stories that are not meant to agree in every detail. Attempts to hide "contradictions" by changing the meaning of the text only show the unbelievers that we really don't respect the scripture after all. That's like arguing that "The Hobbit" and "Narnia" are actually the same story, one being told in greater detail or such.

Dear Papias, I cannot agree since there is a way to understand that only one story is being told. Genesis chapter 1 is the entire history of the 6 Days or Ages of the creation of the third heaven. including events which are future to today. Genesis 2:1-3 tells us of the future 7th Day when God rests from "ALL" of His creating.

At Genesis 2:4, we are taken BACK to the events of the 3rd Day, the same Day the first Earth was made. The narrative continues from the 3rd Day to the present 6th Day which shows that God is STILL creating mankind in His Image TODAY. Genesis 1:27

The events of Genesis 1:28-31 are future to Today, and will NOT happen until AFTER Jesus returns to our Planet. Isaiah 11:7 That's God's Truth and the chronology of Genesis. It shows that there are NOT two stories but one. The reason for the contradictions is that SOME have adopted the ancient views of men who did NOT get the story straight. Scripture does get it straight since God is the Author of Scripture, and NOT the author of confusion.

Pap:>>I encourage anyone who thinks we need to deny the condradictions - as if the contradictions were some kind of "problem", to read up on Biblical scholarship, especially by those who are fluent in the original Hebrew. Here is one, but there are many others - or simply go to a seminary to become a minister, it's one of the first things they teach to all ministers in training at both protestant and Catholic seminaries nationwide. Reading the Fractures of Genesis: Historical and Literary Approaches - David McLain Carr - Google Books

Of course there are contradictions when someone pretends that two different stories are a retelling of the same story. The problem is not that there are "contradictions", but rather that humans try to mash God's two stories into one human story.

No matter how many men deny God's Truth, it doesn't change for God got it correct in the beginning. The problem is in believing the flawed views of men, instead of trying to understand God's Holy Word.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Assyrian]

That's exactly not how it reads. It's always good to not link
to the text when trying to make a erroneous point.
Genesis 2 NIV - Thus the heavens and the earth were - Bible Gateway

This is not creation in order:

8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden;

This is not creation in order:

18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” 19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky.

In particular, if a prior explanation, such as Gen 1, explains the creation order,
then that lends context to Gen 2, showing that Gen 2 is an amplification
of the truth. Not an equal replacement for facts already stated.
Just as the new testament is an amplification of the old testament.

Just like in real life, "conflicting" versions of one story add details to the actual event.
Note that the synoptic gospels all tell of the same events.

I suggest if you want to look at verb tenses in Genesis you pick a better translation than the NIV which plays fast and loose with them. Hebrew is quite capable of showing when verbs occur in consecutive order and when the sequence is broken to refer back to an event that happened before.
Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward, in Eden; and there He put the man whom He had formed. Notice how the sequence of events goes from planting a garden and putting the man in it, to refer back to the creating the man, 'the man whom he had formed'. These are different Hebrew constructions, planting the garden and putting the man there are the waw consecutive imperfect, had formed is the waw consecutive perfect. Unfortunately the NIV throws in the English perfect tense, had done, not only for waw consecutive perfects, but also for the odd waw consecutive imperfect, while translating the rest of the waw consecutive imperfects as simple past in English. The NIV throws a perfect in Gen 2:8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden and in Gen 2:19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals, when there is no justification from the Hebrew.

 

[Harry3142]

ChetSinger-

What Jesus did to the Pharisees was 'trip them up', and he used the same Torah that they relied on in their attacks against others in order to accomplish this. They thought that they could make him say something which they could use against him, but instead he quoted from the Torah itself in order to refute what was in all likelihood their position that a man could divorce his wife for any reason.

The reason that I suspect this to be their plan is due to my reading of the attitude of rabbis toward their wives during this same period. One of them went so far as to claim that it was perfectly acceptable to divorce their wives solely because they had found women that they considered to be more beautiful than their wives were.

As for my attitude concerning Genesis 1&2, I believe that both creation stories were demythologizations. They were not the first creation epics the Hebrews had encountered. Egypt had its own creation epic which all who lived there were taught as fact:

www.theologywebsite.com/etext/egypt/creation.shtml

The author of Genesis, whom I accept as Moses himself due to his knowledge of egyptian mythology, in Genesis 1:1-2:3 methodically 'stripped' every celestial object, every animal, and even the atmosphere itself of the divinity which the egyptian creation epic gave them. The sun, moon and stars were nothing more than objects in the heavens which gave the people light; the atmosphere was nothing more than a space between the earth's surface (which was itself 'stripped' of its divinity) and the heavens above; and the other species of animals, including the bulls, wild dogs, crocodiles and falcons, were nothing more than other species of animals.

Genesis 2:4-25 continued with this rebuttal. In the egyptian creation epic man had been created along with all the other species of animals on the last day, and then he and all the other species were simply 'dumped' onto this planet. The second Genesis creation story gave man a unique position in the animal kingdom. Alone of all the species he is recorded as conversing with God. God had created a special place for him to live so that he might live comfortably (The Garden of Eden). His helpmate (Eve) was created in a unique manner. He was given the authority to name all the other species of animals, which was a symbol of power during that era.

And alone of all the species of animals, man could choose to reject his innocence, and instead obtain the knowledge of good and evil.