Choices in the Garden of Eden

St_Worm2 · Jan 15, 2016

His eyes were "opened" because he disobeyed God for the first time, not because the fruit had magical properties.

He was punished because he did what God specifically told him not to do.

Nihilist Virus · Jan 15, 2016

fatboys said:
The reason they were punished is because it was disobedience. Lack of knowledge or understanding does not change the consequences of disobedience. The punishment is the same whether they knew or did not onow

Then they were set up to fail.

Nihilist Virus · Jan 15, 2016

bling said:
Not really, since you asked: “…then why did God punishment them for their disobedience?”

It was off topic, please re-read.

“Punishment” most of the time in scripture could better be translated “disciplining” and Adam and Eve were being justly/fairly disciplined by God for their transgression.

Their punishment was just even though God created them with no understanding of right and wrong? Now you are on topic. Please explain.

Prior to Adam and Eve eating from the forbidden tree there were: no hurting people, death, limited resources, or even evil they could/would do.

There was a way for Adam and Eve to be “disobedient” or “do wrong” against their parent, but it cannot be done as the result of an evil motivation and thus be evil. A child that plays in the street is not doing it to hurt his/her parents (evil motivation), but to play with friends.

Agreed.

You heard right: “Sin is not the problem” (we all sin, but that does not make us failures). We are only a failure if we do not humbly accept God’s forgiveness for our sins.

Yes! But they along with all of us needed to see or experience this paradise situation and see that we would not (and did not) fulfill our earthly objective in that situation. Look back we can reason why it was Lousy. People that do not learn from the Garden scenario ask the question without an answer: “How could a Loving God allow this (tragedy) to happen?”

So God is playing games according to you.

I'm here for serious theology only. What happens to those of us who don't play this game?

bling said:
Is "death" in and of itself "bad"?

If you don't think death is bad, why not sell all your possessions, give to the poor and wander the world doing good works and preaching the gospel until you die of starvation or dehydration or from the cold of night? God will surely prolong your life (after all, Jesus told you not to worry about what you will eat or wear) while he needs you, and when you die it won't even be a bad thing.

Nihilist Virus · Jan 15, 2016

St_Worm2 said:
Hi NV, of course Adam knew that doing what God specifically told him not to do was wrong, and God told him what the consequences would be to boot (Genesis 2:15-17).

Then explain why it is called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

When God caught our first parents red-handed, they immediately tried to blame it on someone else (Adam blamed Eve .. Genesis 3:12 and Eve blamed the snake .. Genesis 3:13). They became the first to say, "It wasn't me" They absolutely knew that disobeying God was wrong.

Yes... because that was AFTER they ate of the tree.

I'm not getting the sense that you are putting forth a genuine effort to contribute to this thread.

Nihilist Virus · Jan 15, 2016

St_Worm2 said:
His eyes were "opened" because he disobeyed God for the first time, not because the fruit had magical properties.

He was punished because he did what God specifically told him not to do.

The fruit was not magical? Then why did God not want them to eat the fruit of the tree of life?

Tawhano · Jan 16, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
It's called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. When Adam ate of it his eyes were opened. Until he did that he had no knowledge of good or evil, let alone understanding of good or evil. Yet he was punished. Why?

I think you may have misunderstood my question. I know where it says that eating of the fruit made them aware of good and evil. I am asking where does it say they were unable to make choices.

Nihilist Virus · Jan 16, 2016

Tawhano said:
I think you may have misunderstood my question. I know where it says that eating of the fruit made them aware of good and evil. I am asking where does it say they were unable to make choices.

Neither the Bible nor I said that.

Nihilist Virus · Jan 16, 2016

fatboys said:
They didn't fail God succeeded

God's plan was to have many go to hell. This was his success. Ok...

fatboys said:
They were set up to bring mortality to man and imperfection. In order for us to learn anything we have to know good and the bad. If all we knew was good we wouldn't know what bad was. In fact we wouldn't even know what good was. We have to experience the opposites to grow in knowledge

God's perfect plan was to bring about imperfection. Ok...

popsthebuilder · Jan 16, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil seems to be the thing which has given mankind the distinction between good and evil. So if Adam and Eve were unaware of good and evil, or at least the significance of such things, then why did God punishment them for their disobedience? Please explain how this story makes sense. If it doesn't make sense, and you believe it is a literal story, then where do you go from there?

Atheists: please allow the premise that the story of the garden is literal history and not a myth.

Christians: if you don't believe that the story of the garden is literal, then this thread may not be for you.

They understood that it would kill them because they were told such by GOD. Surely they knew that death is to not exist. If they cherished their life and where thankful for all being provided without work or pain, then they wouldn't have gone against the command of GOD. You say they didn't understand the gravity of the situation, but blissfully eternity is pretty much the opposite of non existence, so they definitely understood it, at least in concept.

Why where we made to toil and bear pain? Because obviously we can't take God's word for it, and must learn the right direction from trying out all the wrong ones, making for one heck of a history lesson.

Nihilist Virus · Jan 17, 2016

fatboys said:
Things that happen in life are just that. An infant can not sin. They do not have the capability to understand disobedience or the consequences for disobedience? Christ paid for those transgressions. There was no need to repent because of their state of innocence.

You said it. Adam and Eve did "not have the capability to understand disobedience or the consequences for disobedience."

fatboys said:
First there is no such place as hell. Hell is coming face to face. Second we needed to to have mortal experience.

If there is no such place as hell then why do I care about the theology you have to offer?

Nihilist Virus · Jan 17, 2016

popsthebuilder said:
They understood that it would kill them because they were told such by GOD. Surely they knew that death is to not exist. If they cherished their life and where thankful for all being provided without work or pain, then they wouldn't have gone against the command of GOD. You say they didn't understand the gravity of the situation, but blissfully eternity is pretty much the opposite of non existence, so they definitely understood it, at least in concept.

Why where we made to toil and bear pain? Because obviously we can't take God's word for it, and must learn the right direction from trying out all the wrong ones, making for one heck of a history lesson.

You are not answering the question posed in the OP.

popsthebuilder · Jan 17, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
You are not answering the question posed in the OP.

The question is void. The whole basis of the question in the op is based on them not knowing the consequences. I stated clearly how, and to what level they indeed knew about the consequences.

Peace

Nihilist Virus · Jan 17, 2016

popsthebuilder said:
The question is void. The whole basis of the question in the op is based on them not knowing the consequences.

Wrong, please re-read.

I stated clearly how, and to what level they indeed knew about the consequences.

Peace

You certainly did, and you were correct in what you said. But you are off topic here. I'm asking why they are morally responsible for their actions if God made them so that they didn't understand right from wrong.

Tawhano · Jan 17, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
Neither the Bible nor I said that.

Correct, the Bible does not say that but it appears you did in post#4:

Nihilist Virus said:
They were capable of choosing to do good or evil only after eating of the tree. Please re-read.

So I am guessing you are going to answer that they were unable to choose from good and evil but quite capable of making a choice correct?

Nihilist Virus · Jan 17, 2016

Tawhano said:
Correct, the Bible does not say that but it appears you did in post#4:

So I am guessing you are going to answer that they were unable to choose from good and evil but quite capable of making a choice correct?

I should have said that they were unable to understand the difference between good and evil until after eating of the tree. Now that it is worded properly, do you have an answer?

popsthebuilder · Jan 17, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
Wrong, please re-read.

You certainly did, and you were correct in what you said. But you are off topic here. I'm asking why they are morally responsible for their actions if God made them so that they didn't understand right from wrong.

How could they not have known that morality is to live and to die is to not exist?

All creation seemingly understands this on at least some instinctual core level.

Nihilist Virus · Jan 17, 2016

popsthebuilder said:
How could they not have known that morality is to live and to die is to not exist?

All creation seemingly understands this on at least some instinctual core level.

Sure, they understood that. I guess. Even though they had never seen death. Now that this irrelevant point has been dealt with, please answer the question I'm asking in the OP.

popsthebuilder · Jan 17, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
Sure, they understood that. I guess. Even though they had never seen death. Now that this irrelevant point has been dealt with, please answer the question I'm asking in the OP.

The consequence or punishment or death, whatever you want to call it, the end of blissful existence was known to them by the direction of the very thing that created them and all other existence. You ask why they were held accountable for going against what they knew without a doubt. It's because regardless of what they knew, they allowed themselves to be deceived by greed. They knew they would die, and did it anyway. Showing disregard for the word of GOD.

popsthebuilder · Jan 17, 2016

He didn't punish them so much as set things in motion that we might one day, by his grace and mercy, and our utter direction by way of his command written on our heart, and through experience might once again attain to our rightious state with GOD.

Nihilist Virus · Jan 17, 2016

popsthebuilder said:
The consequence or punishment or death, whatever you want to call it, the end of blissful existence was known to them by the direction of the very thing that created them and all other existence. You ask why they were held accountable for going against what they knew without a doubt. It's because regardless of what they knew, they allowed themselves to be deceived by greed. They knew they would die, and did it anyway. Showing disregard for the word of GOD.

Adam and Eve did not understand the difference between good and evil before they ate of the tree. Therefore, they did not commit evil deliberately. Yet they were punished. What is your explanation?

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